Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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gokugambitoptimus
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by gokugambitoptimus » Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:58 pm

If I am honest, I hope one day SSJ4 will be canon again (with a new name)

I mean, I don't think a saiyan can be a complete god without the tail, so could be cool if the last transformation for the god ki route is a new version of the SSJ4

They can change the colors or even the head hair, but you can recognizse the form thanks to all the hair in the body
For me, the new design would be something basic like black colour for the long head hair, brown for the body hair (like an Ozaru), fangs tooth and red eyes

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:07 pm

gokugambitoptimus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:58 pm If I am honest, I hope one day SSJ4 will be canon again (with a new name)

I mean, I don't think a saiyan can be a complete god without the tail, so could be cool if the last transformation for the god ki route is a new version of the SSJ4

They can change the colors or even the head hair, but you can recognizse the form thanks to all the hair in the body
For me, the new design would be something basic like black colour for the long head hair, brown for the body hair (like an Ozaru), fangs tooth and red eyes
Hmm interesting idea.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:26 pm

gokugambitoptimus wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:58 pm If I am honest, I hope one day SSJ4 will be canon again (with a new name)

I mean, I don't think a saiyan can be a complete god without the tail, so could be cool if the last transformation for the god ki route is a new version of the SSJ4

They can change the colors or even the head hair, but you can recognizse the form thanks to all the hair in the body
For me, the new design would be something basic like black colour for the long head hair, brown for the body hair (like an Ozaru), fangs tooth and red eyes
Meh, I would prefer the SS4 form have no changes. It doesn't need to considering that UI and UI Sign literally only changed Goku's eye and hair color, while on the other hand Ultra Ego changed the eyes, eye color, and hair color while removing eyebrows. So God Ki forms can indeed also cause that kind of bodily change.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:24 pm

I forgot this existed. Anyway, in the latest heroes episode we are shown SS4LB Xeno Goku fighting UI Sign CC Goku, outside of UI's auto dodge and auto attack ability they are even, with Goku winning once he uses full UI. We see a snippet of Blue Evolved CC Vegeta vs SS4LB Xeno Vegeta and they are even as well. Seems SS4LB is SSBE level minimum and UI Sign level at best.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Kaboom » Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:50 pm

Honestly, while I hate that any official media portrays either version of the insipid bundle of overhyped blandness that is Ultra Instinct as being in any way better than any level of Super Saiyan 4...

I'm also kinda tickled pink that the opposite and unfortunately pervasive notion, that Super Saiyan 4 is a measly speck in power compared to even Super Saiyan God, has likewise been blown out of the water.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Yuji » Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:11 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:50 pm Honestly, while I hate that any official media portrays either version of the insipid bundle of overhyped blandness that is Ultra Instinct as being in any way better than any level of Super Saiyan 4...

I'm also kinda tickled pink that the opposite and unfortunately pervasive notion, that Super Saiyan 4 is a measly speck in power compared to even Super Saiyan God, has likewise been blown out of the water.
I don't see where it has. Most communities still have the consensus BoG SSG Goku solos GT outside of maybe Gogeta. Xeno Goku is a different beast.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Kaboom » Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:19 pm

Yuji wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:11 pmMost communities still have the consensus BoG SSG Goku solos GT outside of maybe Gogeta.
You might be surprised by how willfully ignorant and "selective" in their thought process many of those communities are, as well as how little I care what they think to begin with.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Yuji » Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:24 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:19 pm
Yuji wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:11 pmMost communities still have the consensus BoG SSG Goku solos GT outside of maybe Gogeta.
You might be surprised by how willfully ignorant and "selective" in their thought process many of those communities are, as well as how little I care what they think to begin with.
I'm just challenging the notion that this status quo has "been blown out of the water." GT's powerscaling does itself a disservice by comparing Rildo to Boo and only surpassing Z battle powers definitively by the time Super Baby 2 arrives. That old promotional pamphlet affirming Vegetto and SS4 are relative also didn't help.

BoG separates itself from the jump from Z by directly comparing God to Vegetto and then the Super anime implies that Blue is a 50x increase over it, and powercreeps even further by adding the Kaioken multipliers and stacking two UI forms on top of that too. It's no wonder there's a notion that Super characters are generally much stronger than GT's.

I'm sure you can challenge this notion and make an argument in favour of GT but it still very much is the consensus that SS4 isn't very strong in comparison to the God forms.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:56 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:50 pm I'm also kinda tickled pink that the opposite and unfortunately pervasive notion, that Super Saiyan 4 is a measly speck in power compared to even Super Saiyan God, has likewise been blown out of the water.
You can't take people who say that seriously really. I mean none of them can provide any proof. There is no proof that UI can beat SSJ4 Goku or vice versa to begin with of course. But even going by simple logic and feats saying BoG SSG solos GT is just cute and sad at the same time.

Both series have so much different logic in them than comparing them is almost impossible if we try to prove anything and call it a fact. I could say base GT Goku solos DBS because he trashed Frieza after many years of training when DBS Goku struggled with Frieza after 4 months of training. Not to mention Future Trunks in manga being able to heal SSB Goku while in GT Kibitokai (who obviously has much stronger healing powers) was said to not have power needed to heal someone as strong as SSJ4 Goku.

And there is much more that i could say to people who "state" BoG Goku can beat SS4 Gogeta because "hE hAs GoD kI"
Yuji wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 3:24 pm I'm just challenging the notion that this status quo has "been blown out of the water." GT's powerscaling does itself a disservice by comparing Rildo to Boo and only surpassing Z battle powers definitively by the time Super Baby 2 arrives.
Well Goku compared Rildo to the strongest villain he knew until that point. Who did you expect him to compare to? I mean he said RIldo is more powerful than Buu. He didn't say how much. And he was stronger than him in base.

Super Baby 1 apperance was a point when we got indisputable statement about him surpassing everything in Z, but it doesn't mean that anyone before wasn't at that level already. Goku confirming he never felt ki as powerful as Super Baby 1 could refer to Buu and Vegetto, but also Rildo.

So i wouldn't call that a complete disservice, especially considering how insane boost in power Goku got after that arc. And let's not pretend Super doesn't have anything to disservice itself including things that would make that "SSG > Vegetto" statement questionable. Characters like Android 17 being on par with SSB Goku doesn't help especially considering no one was really much surprised about it. Compare that to GT where base Vegeta is on par with Hell Fighter 17 and he is shocked and says 17 "powered up beyond belief" (thinking it's the same 17 from Z). In GT someone like 17 being able to trade punches with base Vegeta was considered a b****it even in-universe. Characters in Super getting random boosts (that do not surprise anyone) doesn't help series cause it makes you think if they really became so strong or if Goku and Vegeta aren't that much stronger compared to Z. And since those boosts are random and make no sense it's really not that hard to bias towards the latter a bit.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:33 pm

Yeah, Granolah never did any sort of punch or attack that threatened the Universe, while Goku in SSG did.. SSG Goku confirmed stronger than Granolah GGz.

That's the kind of logic the powerscaling fandom uses a lot and it's ridiculous.

The best showing of power we will get for the non-canon form SS4 comes from the people who had it made and basically own it: Toei Animation.. who also make the Super Heroes anime.

So what it seems that when in direct combat and comparison to another what we have recently seen is how strong they intend it to be.

The whole idea that God forms have to be stronger because they are God forms is bad logic really, as Beast is not a God form yet the power it gives Gohan is likely at bare minimum equal to the power that UI and UE bring Goku and Vegeta.

People also like to say "well base Xeno Goku is stonger than base CC Goku" when there hasn't actually been any evidence to prove that.. CC Goku has also gotten astronomically stronger since the Prison Planet Arc and every feat he has had after that has proven it.

So according to Toei, currently Blue and 4 are on the same general level, so are Blue Evolved and 4LB while it seems 4LB can be powered up even further to reach UI SIgns level of power seeing as how BOTH CC and Xeno Goku were bruised up and out of breath at the end of their battle.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:16 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:33 pm Yeah, Granolah never did any sort of punch or attack that threatened the Universe, while Goku in SSG did.. SSG Goku confirmed stronger than Granolah GGz.
Yeah this is exactly how much "feats" are worth, especially if you use only the cool ones. And i'm not talking just about Super, but DB overall. And people who state SSG can solo GT or anything like that always bring the same two "proofs":
-Because he has god ki and god ki is stronger even though most antagonists in Super doesn't even have it
-Because Goku and Beerus fist clash shook entire universe so SSG Goku is multi-ultra-hyper-whatever-universal+++ (i just love these random names people come with :lol: ) and no one in GT is so he solos
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:20 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:16 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:33 pm Yeah, Granolah never did any sort of punch or attack that threatened the Universe, while Goku in SSG did.. SSG Goku confirmed stronger than Granolah GGz.
Yeah this is exactly how much "feats" are worth, especially if you use only the cool ones. And i'm not talking just about Super, but DB overall. And people who state SSG can solo GT or anything like that always bring the same two "proofs":
-Because he has god ki and god ki is stronger even though most antagonists in Super doesn't even have it
-Because Goku and Beerus fist clash shook entire universe so SSG Goku is multi-ultra-hyper-whatever-universal+++ (i just love these random names people come with :lol: ) and no one in GT is so he solos
Going by "feats" alone SSG is the most powerful thing to ever exist period, Goku just got weaker after Battle of Gods :D

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Aug 28, 2023 7:50 pm

SsG= ss4 fusion because they both have red hair. I'll see myself out.

In all seriousness Beerus is stated to be able to instantly destroy a galaxy while Omega would destroy one over time is the closest we got to a comparison.

If 4= God/Blue then imagine how strong gt characters would be with God forms.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:17 pm

In Super, Base Kefla dog walks SSG Goku, SS Kefla one shots SSB Goku and apparently was holding back as she wanted him to get up. Base Broly in DBS Broly capped right after he got the edge on SS Vegeta and then got beat by SSG Vegeta, but the literal instant he gets 10x stronger via going into Wrath State he has the edge again. So SSG Is apparently now relative to being 10x the SS form in power as the current scaling shows. This would put 4 above God and around the same as Blue.

What surprised me though was the full power of SS4LB rivaling UI SIgn's power. Going by how DBH and DBS present potential using transformations currently though I guess it makes sense.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:14 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:17 pm In Super, Base Kefla dog walks SSG Goku, SS Kefla one shots SSB Goku and apparently was holding back as she wanted him to get up. Base Broly in DBS Broly capped right after he got the edge on SS Vegeta and then got beat by SSG Vegeta, but the literal instant he gets 10x stronger via going into Wrath State he has the edge again. So SSG Is apparently now relative to being 10x the SS form in power as the current scaling shows. This would put 4 above God and around the same as Blue.

What surprised me though was the full power of SS4LB rivaling UI SIgn's power. Going by how DBH and DBS present potential using transformations currently though I guess it makes sense.
Broly powers up further when he unlocks a form its not just 10x his max base power.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:56 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:14 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:17 pm In Super, Base Kefla dog walks SSG Goku, SS Kefla one shots SSB Goku and apparently was holding back as she wanted him to get up. Base Broly in DBS Broly capped right after he got the edge on SS Vegeta and then got beat by SSG Vegeta, but the literal instant he gets 10x stronger via going into Wrath State he has the edge again. So SSG Is apparently now relative to being 10x the SS form in power as the current scaling shows. This would put 4 above God and around the same as Blue.

What surprised me though was the full power of SS4LB rivaling UI SIgn's power. Going by how DBH and DBS present potential using transformations currently though I guess it makes sense.
Broly powers up further when he unlocks a form its not just 10x his max base power.
He literally just got into Wrath State and stood there when he got punched, its great ape which means its 10x the users PL.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:07 am

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:56 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:14 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 2:17 pm In Super, Base Kefla dog walks SSG Goku, SS Kefla one shots SSB Goku and apparently was holding back as she wanted him to get up. Base Broly in DBS Broly capped right after he got the edge on SS Vegeta and then got beat by SSG Vegeta, but the literal instant he gets 10x stronger via going into Wrath State he has the edge again. So SSG Is apparently now relative to being 10x the SS form in power as the current scaling shows. This would put 4 above God and around the same as Blue.

What surprised me though was the full power of SS4LB rivaling UI SIgn's power. Going by how DBH and DBS present potential using transformations currently though I guess it makes sense.
Broly powers up further when he unlocks a form its not just 10x his max base power.
He literally just got into Wrath State and stood there when he got punched, its great ape which means its 10x the users PL.
He's also in a humanoid, tail-less version of the form where he doesn't initially physically change. And this state is also factored into the strength of his subsequent Super Saiyan form later on.

I don't think we can apply the exact same rules of the usual Oozaru form to Broly's Ikari state, especially since it's no longer triggered by Blutz Waves and can be tapped into via rage.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by theherodjl » Fri Sep 01, 2023 10:42 am

QuakingStar wrote: Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:56 pmHe literally just got into Wrath State and stood there when he got punched, its great ape which means its 10x the users PL.
Ikari Broly kept powering up until he was Hulk-smashing SSJG Goku: Mathematically, it can't be any lower than a 500x boost, not unless the SSJ multipliers have lowered drastically.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:34 am

Never had any problem with Kefla being that strong.
Kale alone was pretty close to SSG, so it stands to reason her fusion would skyrocket in base and surpass her own power level. Any fusion involving a saiyan mutant wild card shouldn't work under similar rules -which was never actually explained to begin with- as regular people fusing, anyway.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Sat Sep 02, 2023 12:55 am

The only things a Saiyan Mutant would change would be the transformations used in the fusion. Kelfas base form still dogged SSG Goku.

You also can't just make up a multiplier for Great Apes initial power which is 10x the users power.

In the anime Potara was said to be the two users powers combined times tens of times.

I don't think any formula was stated in the manga.

Against Broly who was getting ever stronger, SS Gogeta did far better against SS Broly, while SSGSS Goku and SSGSS Vegeta could do nothing, deciding that fusion was the only option. That undoubtedly confirms that base fusion in current times is treated as above SSG and SS Fusion is above SSGSS.

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