Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:54 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:49 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:55 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:57 pm If he wanted to specifically tell Majin Boo was surpassed I guess he would make it clear, like when he compared Rilldo to the good Boo.
Not really. Rildo was stronger than Buu but weaker than someone like Vegetto or current Goku, so he specified exactly where Rildo's power should be placed. Baby was stronger than anyone else he knew so there is no reason to mention specific person. He was stronger than all of them and that says everything.
He fought the evil Boo 15 years before, while the good Boo was still around and had a familiar ki. There is no reason to assume Goku remembers exactly how large was the evil Boo’s ki after all this time. Not to mention he wasn’t able to have a good reading at Boo’s true power at the time anyway.
That is poor reasoning to think Goku can't remember Buu's ki just becasue it was 15 years ago. Goku is an animated character, his memory is as good or bad as the writers need it to be. That sentence is telling us Rildo> Buu that they fought. Rather it be Kid or Buuhan is up to interpretation but it is one of the stronger ones.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:53 am Yeah, no way in hell Goku was talking about Buuhan, vs Rildo. Why would he? Trunks and Pan have no idea who that is, he might as well say he is stronger than Hit. Besides, Pan landed a few blows and Goku fought him in base. Gohan also fights Rildo in his base, so everybody would be Buuhan tier in GT even though nobody trains anymore.

It's either Mr. Buu or Kid Buu... missing the term Majin hints it might be Mr. Buu.
^^ pretty much. most likely to be mr buu as that's the one who is around and whom the team will understand is being referred to. also, anyone feels the rildo shitck is kinda comparable to the baby one?

in the sense that there are vague comparsions being made presumptiously thinking that the audience will get it?
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:26 pm

Shintoki wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:47 pm ^^ pretty much. most likely to be mr buu as that's the one who is around and whom the team will understand is being referred to. also, anyone feels the rildo shitck is kinda comparable to the baby one?

in the sense that there are vague comparsions being made presumptiously thinking that the audience will get it?
I don't think that's something Goku would think about considering he told Rildo that Chichi would be mad if he became a machine mutant and Rildo clearly do not even know who Chichi is.

About Rildo looking any similar to Baby then well, Baby was the one who granted Dr. Myuu designs for machine mutants, so all of them were kinda based on Baby's structure, just inferior in technology used.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:11 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:54 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:49 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:55 pm
Not really. Rildo was stronger than Buu but weaker than someone like Vegetto or current Goku, so he specified exactly where Rildo's power should be placed. Baby was stronger than anyone else he knew so there is no reason to mention specific person. He was stronger than all of them and that says everything.
He fought the evil Boo 15 years before, while the good Boo was still around and had a familiar ki. There is no reason to assume Goku remembers exactly how large was the evil Boo’s ki after all this time. Not to mention he wasn’t able to have a good reading at Boo’s true power at the time anyway.
That is poor reasoning to think Goku can't remember Buu's ki just becasue it was 15 years ago. Goku is an animated character, his memory is as good or bad as the writers need it to be. That sentence is telling us Rildo> Buu that they fought. Rather it be Kid or Buuhan is up to interpretation but it is one of the stronger ones.
Says who? Nothing seems to suggest he is referring to the evil Boo forms, as Goku is not as strong as he was when he had a full-grown body and even at his prime he couldn’t beat the evil Boo on his own.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:11 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:54 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:49 pm
He fought the evil Boo 15 years before, while the good Boo was still around and had a familiar ki. There is no reason to assume Goku remembers exactly how large was the evil Boo’s ki after all this time. Not to mention he wasn’t able to have a good reading at Boo’s true power at the time anyway.
That is poor reasoning to think Goku can't remember Buu's ki just becasue it was 15 years ago. Goku is an animated character, his memory is as good or bad as the writers need it to be. That sentence is telling us Rildo> Buu that they fought. Rather it be Kid or Buuhan is up to interpretation but it is one of the stronger ones.
Says who? Nothing seems to suggest he is referring to the evil Boo forms, as Goku is not as strong as he was when he had a full-grown body and even at his prime he couldn’t beat the evil Boo on his own.
Goku lost stamina as a kid not power. Kid GT Goku would rip the Buu Saga apart. Goten also thinks he can handle a Villian stronger than Super Buu in GT and Gohan is stated to surpass Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:40 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:14 am About that statement, i believe Goku knows how strong he was as Vegetto and probably meant him. We saw in DBS that Goku was sure that fusing with Vegeta will not be enough to beat Beerus, so he also knew not only how strong they were but also could assume how strong they will be after fusing. And while DBS & GT do not follow each other, it's still the same franchise so i'll take Goku's statement in DBS in favor for GT.
I have no doubts Goku could estimate how strong a fusion of himself and Vegeta would be, but I think that's irrelevant. Goku and Baby were talking about Ki's they have felt, and even if Goku can estimate how strong SSJ3 Vegetto could be, that's not the same thing as feeling it.
Shintoki wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:42 pm Image

why would goku be talking about boohan? the most sensible answer is that he would have been either talking about:
A) mr boo
or
B) pure/majin boo

Mr boo because that's what trunks and pan are familiar with, so they know what benchmark goku is talking about
or
the evil boo's goku fought and stalemated and conteded with in SS3 back then.

super boo was too much for goku back then with the only one to equal him being SS3 gotenks, let alone highter versions.
GT takes place over 10 years after the Boo Saga, so Super Boo being much stronger than Goku was back then is irrelevant. Why would Goku be using a arbitrary and weaker form of Boo as a measure stick? That's like saying Kaioshin was referring to 2nd form Freeza when saying he could kill Freeza with one blow, or that Dabra is as strong as Imperfect Cell.

[/quote]
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:53 am Yeah, no way in hell Goku was talking about Buuhan, vs Rildo. Why would he? Trunks and Pan have no idea who that is, he might as well say he is stronger than Hit. Besides, Pan landed a few blows and Goku fought him in base. Gohan also fights Rildo in his base, so everybody would be Buuhan tier in GT even though nobody trains anymore.

It's either Mr. Buu or Kid Buu... missing the term Majin hints it might be Mr. Buu.
Goku was talking to Rildo (who doesn't even know Boo at all), not the kids. And it's not like Goku cares, he openly talks about Cell and Boo to Kaioshin and Oob respectively when neither knew these guys.

I used to think that too, but there's no difference between "Majin Boo" and just "Boo". It's like whether someone says "Son Goku" or just "Goku".
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:11 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:54 pm
That is poor reasoning to think Goku can't remember Buu's ki just becasue it was 15 years ago. Goku is an animated character, his memory is as good or bad as the writers need it to be. That sentence is telling us Rildo> Buu that they fought. Rather it be Kid or Buuhan is up to interpretation but it is one of the stronger ones.
Says who? Nothing seems to suggest he is referring to the evil Boo forms, as Goku is not as strong as he was when he had a full-grown body and even at his prime he couldn’t beat the evil Boo on his own.
Goku lost stamina as a kid not power. Kid GT Goku would rip the Buu Saga apart. Goten also thinks he can handle a Villian stronger than Super Buu in GT and Gohan is stated to surpass Ultimate Gohan.
In practical terms, Goku’s tiny body couldn’t attain the same level of ki control he could as an adult. That can be verified by his inability to properly perform instant transmission and SS3, as he suffered ki disorder due to the Black Star Dragon Balls powers and those techniques require advanced ki control. So, his battle power wasn’t affected, but the best he could muster at the moment was Super Saiyan, which was inferior to his SS3 level from Boo Arc.

Besides, how exactly did you assume Goten and Gohan have gotten stronger in Dragon Ball GT? Because the narrative quite implies the opposite, as they hadn’t been training and were only dedicated to their own interests. Gohan in particular can barely become a Super Saiyan, he didn’t use his “strongest-warrior” form.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:51 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:40 pm I have no doubts Goku could estimate how strong a fusion of himself and Vegeta would be, but I think that's irrelevant. Goku and Baby were talking about Ki's they have felt, and even if Goku can estimate how strong SSJ3 Vegetto could be, that's not the same thing as feeling it.
Yeah but i only mean Vegetto SSJ from Buu saga
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:28 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:40 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:14 am About that statement, i believe Goku knows how strong he was as Vegetto and probably meant him. We saw in DBS that Goku was sure that fusing with Vegeta will not be enough to beat Beerus, so he also knew not only how strong they were but also could assume how strong they will be after fusing. And while DBS & GT do not follow each other, it's still the same franchise so i'll take Goku's statement in DBS in favor for GT.
I have no doubts Goku could estimate how strong a fusion of himself and Vegeta would be, but I think that's irrelevant. Goku and Baby were talking about Ki's they have felt, and even if Goku can estimate how strong SSJ3 Vegetto could be, that's not the same thing as feeling it.
Shintoki wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:42 pm Image

why would goku be talking about boohan? the most sensible answer is that he would have been either talking about:
A) mr boo
or
B) pure/majin boo

Mr boo because that's what trunks and pan are familiar with, so they know what benchmark goku is talking about
or
the evil boo's goku fought and stalemated and conteded with in SS3 back then.

super boo was too much for goku back then with the only one to equal him being SS3 gotenks, let alone highter versions.
GT takes place over 10 years after the Boo Saga, so Super Boo being much stronger than Goku was back then is irrelevant. Why would Goku be using a arbitrary and weaker form of Boo as a measure stick? That's like saying Kaioshin was referring to 2nd form Freeza when saying he could kill Freeza with one blow, or that Dabra is as strong as Imperfect Cell.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:53 am Yeah, no way in hell Goku was talking about Buuhan, vs Rildo. Why would he? Trunks and Pan have no idea who that is, he might as well say he is stronger than Hit. Besides, Pan landed a few blows and Goku fought him in base. Gohan also fights Rildo in his base, so everybody would be Buuhan tier in GT even though nobody trains anymore.

It's either Mr. Buu or Kid Buu... missing the term Majin hints it might be Mr. Buu.
Goku was talking to Rildo (who doesn't even know Boo at all), not the kids. And it's not like Goku cares, he openly talks about Cell and Boo to Kaioshin and Oob respectively when neither knew these guys.

I used to think that too, but there's no difference between "Majin Boo" and just "Boo". It's like whether someone says "Son Goku" or just "Goku".
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

5 Years* the 10 years is a funimation made up thing.
That's like saying Kaioshin was referring to 2nd form Freeza when saying he could kill Freeza with one blow
context is important, and well for starter. we know now that a BOG base saga goku would still need SS1 to defeat Freeza as per beerus statement [it being the nail on the coffin for all evidentials from the boo arc] so shin was definitely talking about a first form freeza.

in the other side, not contextualizing it ends up in it being intrepreted literally and viewing it as last form Freeza instead.

Yo son goku has a similar instance

and I'm pretty sure pikkon doesn't know who majin boo is yet, but goku says that statement anyways. so it's not like goku said it to pikkon specifically. it's the same in here really. goku is just making a public ''goku statement'' that ideally would contextualize both the audience, and the scene.

and when has mr boo been referred to as majin boo outside of third parties [such as by Freeza in ROF] post the boo arc?

really, goku excluding himself in the janemeba instance should more than enough of a precedent that goku doesn't include himself in those comparisons [and by extention, vegetto]. heck, he's not even considering his ''adult SS3 form'' that would have managed out SB2 in that exact scene. so baby statement is still not really correct to claim that he aquired the greatest saiyan power.
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DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:43 pm

Shintoki wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:28 pm
That's like saying Kaioshin was referring to 2nd form Freeza when saying he could kill Freeza with one blow
context is important, and well for starter. we know now that a BOG base saga goku would still need SS1 to defeat Freeza as per beerus statement [it being the nail on the coffin for all evidentials from the boo arc] so shin was definitely talking about a first form freeza.
Sorry, what?
I'm missing what changed to make Beerus and Kaioshin referring to 1st Form Freza instead of True Form Frieza.


that said, I agree with what else you are saying: Goku was referring to either Kid Buu or, if we take it as "Buu at his strongest", perhaps Ultimate Buu(depending whether Ultimate Buu was stronger than Kid Buu or not)

There is no reason for Goku to be referring to Mr. Buu

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:18 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:43 pm
Shintoki wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:28 pm
That's like saying Kaioshin was referring to 2nd form Freeza when saying he could kill Freeza with one blow
context is important, and well for starter. we know now that a BOG base saga goku would still need SS1 to defeat Freeza as per beerus statement [it being the nail on the coffin for all evidentials from the boo arc] so shin was definitely talking about a first form freeza.
Sorry, what?
I'm missing what changed to make Beerus and Kaioshin referring to 1st Form Freza instead of True Form Frieza.


that said, I agree with what else you are saying: Goku was referring to either Kid Buu or, if we take it as "Buu at his strongest", perhaps Ultimate Buu(depending whether Ultimate Buu was stronger than Kid Buu or not)

There is no reason for Goku to be referring to Mr. Buu
beerus referred to true form freeza as i said, not first, you got it mixed! it's shin that i said most likely referred to the latter per the implications of beerus statement.

and as for boo, i would be interested to hear your thoughts at why it wouldn't be mr boo. :?:
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:47 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:59 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:11 pm
Says who? Nothing seems to suggest he is referring to the evil Boo forms, as Goku is not as strong as he was when he had a full-grown body and even at his prime he couldn’t beat the evil Boo on his own.
Goku lost stamina as a kid not power. Kid GT Goku would rip the Buu Saga apart. Goten also thinks he can handle a Villian stronger than Super Buu in GT and Gohan is stated to surpass Ultimate Gohan.
In practical terms, Goku’s tiny body couldn’t attain the same level of ki control he could as an adult. That can be verified by his inability to properly perform instant transmission and SS3, as he suffered ki disorder due to the Black Star Dragon Balls powers and those techniques require advanced ki control. So, his battle power wasn’t affected, but the best he could muster at the moment was Super Saiyan, which was inferior to his SS3 level from Boo Arc.

Besides, how exactly did you assume Goten and Gohan have gotten stronger in Dragon Ball GT? Because the narrative quite implies the opposite, as they hadn’t been training and were only dedicated to their own interests. Gohan in particular can barely become a Super Saiyan, he didn’t use his “strongest-warrior” form.
Gt Base Goku> Ssj3 Buu Goku is implied several times in the series.

Goten says Bebi is the strongest ki he ever faced, he sensed Super Buu.

Gt perfect files says Gohan didn't neglect his trainning and he can handle SS Goten in base.

Ultimate Gt Gohan(never happened)> Ss2 Gt Gohan> Ss Gohan GT> Base Gt Gohan> Ultimate Gohan buu.

Ss Gt Goten> SS3 Gotenks.

Base Gt Gohan beat SS Gohan and SS Goten.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm

I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.

SS4 is the turning point of Goku going back to the more battle-oriented aspect from DBZ era, and his strong-looking aesthetic is basically a way of saying he has surpassed the limitation put on him and came out stronger than ever.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:39 pm

Shintoki wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:18 pm it's shin that i said most likely referred to the latter per the implications of beerus statement.
Yes: i don't see how Beerus' statement could change the meaning of Shin's affirmation.

I know a lot of people like to shit on him, but he was still strong enough to have a presence capable to intimidate Buu-saga Piccolo.
Super Saiyan trunks did basically PLAY with Mecha-Frieza, who was supposed to be AT LEAST as strong as Final Form, and he was sensibly weaker than the Goku that came back.
And that Goku was VASTLY weaker than Super Namekkian Piccolo.

Said Super Namekkian was, as said before, intimidated by Shin. No amount of godli presence would do that if not backupped by a proportional power.
and as for boo, i would be interested to hear your thoughts at why it wouldn't be mr boo. :?:
top start, he didn't call him Mr. Buu.

Second, it was a hype statement: Mr. Buu wasn't until then portrayed as all that strong.
It wouldn't make narrative sense to use him as comparison: otherwise, "Majin Buu"(kid) was still the Final Boss of the previous series.


in short, both topics I talked about are reduced to the same thing: it makes no sense whatsoever for characters to NOT refer the true\strongest form of the person they are talking about unless specified

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:03 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:39 pm
Shintoki wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:18 pm it's shin that i said most likely referred to the latter per the implications of beerus statement.
Yes: i don't see how Beerus' statement could change the meaning of Shin's affirmation.

I know a lot of people like to shit on him, but he was still strong enough to have a presence capable to intimidate Buu-saga Piccolo.
Super Saiyan trunks did basically PLAY with Mecha-Frieza, who was supposed to be AT LEAST as strong as Final Form, and he was sensibly weaker than the Goku that came back.
And that Goku was VASTLY weaker than Super Namekkian Piccolo.

Said Super Namekkian was, as said before, intimidated by Shin. No amount of godli presence would do that if not backupped by a proportional power.
and as for boo, i would be interested to hear your thoughts at why it wouldn't be mr boo. :?:
top start, he didn't call him Mr. Buu.

Second, it was a hype statement: Mr. Buu wasn't until then portrayed as all that strong.
It wouldn't make narrative sense to use him as comparison: otherwise, "Majin Buu"(kid) was still the Final Boss of the previous series.


in short, both topics I talked about are reduced to the same thing: it makes no sense whatsoever for characters to NOT refer the true\strongest form of the person they are talking about unless specified
Yes: i don't see how Beerus' statement could change the meaning of Shin's affirmation.
because goku despite all of his supposed ''power ups'', would still need a 50x multiplier to defeat true form freeza!? that would naturally overwrites any remark about shin.

so unless the suggestion is shin > SS1 goku. which is very unlikely, the natural explanation would be that kamicolo intimidation was him being wary of shin position as a kaioshin.

so they must call him ''mr boo'' to know it was mr boo... ? :?
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:44 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.

SS4 is the turning point of Goku going back to the more battle-oriented aspect from DBZ era, and his strong-looking aesthetic is basically a way of saying he has surpassed the limitation put on him and came out stronger than ever.
He did a bad job at nerfing Goku then because every statemente in the show and the perfect files have the weaker GT fighters surpassing nearly all the strongest z fighters.

Vegito is the only one not passed up until Bebi combines with Vegeta.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Shintoki » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:47 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:44 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.

SS4 is the turning point of Goku going back to the more battle-oriented aspect from DBZ era, and his strong-looking aesthetic is basically a way of saying he has surpassed the limitation put on him and came out stronger than ever.
He did a bad job at nerfing Goku then because every statemente in the show and the perfect files have the weaker GT fighters surpassing nearly all the strongest z fighters.

Vegito is the only one not passed up until Bebi combines with Vegeta.
Goku in the show lost proper usage to his SS3 form, how is that a bad job?

and gohan never seemed to be able to access his ultimate form either. seems like proper nerfing.

as for bebi surpassing vegetto, that would mean by association that an SS3 goku > super vegetto since bebi claim comes off of goku losing to him. so unless one believes goku considered vegetto when he said [he really didn't] that, it really was just him saying bebi > him as a kid.
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Oct 09, 2021 6:21 pm You could also, y'know, become a real buddhist
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:18 am Isn't this technically worshipping the Monkey King?

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Hugo Boss
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:50 pm

DBGT is actually very explicit about Gohan, Goten and Trunks growing softer in those peaceful 15 years after the battle against Majin Boo. Gohan became a scholar, Trunks Capsule Corp CEO and Goten we don't even know what he does besides dating girls.

They also look like total wimps in comparison to how they used to be, specially Gohan (Not sure what he means by every statement on the show have weaker DBGT characters above nearly all DBZ strongest characters. He didn't provide any).

I honestly couldn't care less about what the GT Perfect Files say on this matter, because this tidbit about Gohan was probably written by someone who didn't pay attention.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:44 pm I’m not sure if you are taking this discussion seriously or not, but all the implications you brought up seem to be totally missing the premise Dragon Ball GT was working with.

Atsushi Maekawa is one of GT most active writers and he even exposed the idea behind Goku becoming a kid again being basically a way to nerf him, and specifically mentioned that Gohan gave up fighting almost entirely, which directly contradict any piece of information the perfect files book have about he not neglecting his training.
But that also contradicts what actual series shows us. Base Gohan wasn't hurt by Rildo's attacks which is something DBZ Gohan wouldn't achieve against any form of Buu without his Ultimate form. That clearly shows Gohan in GT is still much stronger than in DBZ. He might've give up fighting but not training. I mean when Vegeta said he will never fight again he would still probably train for himself, he just lost will to fight. So maybe mr Maekawa only meant Gohan isn't interested in fighting, doesn't fight crime as Great Saiyaman and doesn't train as hard, but he still trains so he can protect his family in case of danger, kinda what DBS Gohan decided to do after RoF events. Or maybe mr Maekawa is actually the one that is wrong and not Perfect Files.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:59 pm

Shintoki wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:03 pm
Yes: i don't see how Beerus' statement could change the meaning of Shin's affirmation.
because goku despite all of his supposed ''power ups'', would still need a 50x multiplier to defeat true form freeza!? that would naturally overwrites any remark about shin.

so unless the suggestion is shin > SS1 goku. which is very unlikely
That was the exact and obvious intent.
And there is nothing whatsoever suggesting Shin is weaker than that.
so they must call him ''mr boo'' to know it was mr boo... ? :?
In GT, yes: else they would have otherwise specified. Not calling him so would remove meaning from giving him a different name.

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