Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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Koitsukai
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:40 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:13 pm
to be even more clear Goku said he didn''t think fusion would help, not that he knew it wouldn't help. Not to mention you can't rely on BoG for anything anyway as Beerus lied the entire time. He used nowhere near 70% of his power and he held back astronomically in order to see God's power. Using anything from Battle of Gods in your idea is a horribly bad idea.
What does the Beerus retcon have to do with anything? if the dramatic needs and how the narrative goes weren't enough, then remember Goku couldn't believe the world he just entered. Really, this is isn't up for debate, that's how the DBS revival actually started, it isn't a nitpick on my part.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy BoG, but it does not change those facts.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:21 pm

The very next saga goes on to reveal Beerus lied about pretty much everything concerning power. Also Goku was referring to the feeling and not just the power of God Ki, as it was described as being calming and dense. Not to mention that Goku before the God Ki is already at a much higher power than in the Buu Saga. So SSGod Goku in BoG and its Saga would be stronger than SS Vegito from the Buu Saga anyway. SSGod is weaker than SS4 when two users of the same power in base form would use either form with SSGSS and SS4 being more on the same level and the people who made GT and SS4 also worked on Heroes. SS4 and SSGSS are on equal grounds. SSGod is not on their level.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Grimlock » Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:58 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:21 pm
SSGSS and SS4 being more on the same level and the people who made GT and SS4 also worked on Heroes. SS4 and SSGSS are on equal grounds.
Well if I am to guess, Toei has no influence/work on the arcade at all (there's no animated cutscenes within the arcade, after all. So there's that too). In the arcade, Xeno Goku was panting after his fight against Goku (and Goku was like "oh well, okay then"). With the former revealing that the latter was one step above him. Now, we should bear in mind that this was a fight between Goku from after the events of Dragon Ball Super Broly (AGE 780) and a Xeno Goku from Dende knows how long after the events of Dragon Ball GT (at least AGE 790).

There is a gap of at least ten years between them so this pretty much tells you that if they had come from the same time period, Goku would be Daishinkan when compared to Xeno Goku. Meaning Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is way above Super Saiyan 4. The only way for them (and probably their transformations) to be equal would be to put Xeno Goku through the same training and circumstances Goku went through.
Then again, logic would tell you that stacking the power of Super Saiyan God into the Super Saiyan 4 form would make the user stronger than the one stacking said power into Super Saiyan (as obviously Super Saiyan 4 > Super Saiyan), Xeno Goku would be Toribot when compared to Goku, but I digress.
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:28 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:21 pm
The very next saga goes on to reveal Beerus lied about pretty much everything concerning power. Also Goku was referring to the feeling and not just the power of God Ki, as it was described as being calming and dense. Not to mention that Goku before the God Ki is already at a much higher power than in the Buu Saga. So SSGod Goku in BoG and its Saga would be stronger than SS Vegito from the Buu Saga anyway. SSGod is weaker than SS4 when two users of the same power in base form would use either form with SSGSS and SS4 being more on the same level and the people who made GT and SS4 also worked on Heroes. SS4 and SSGSS are on equal grounds. SSGod is not on their level.

Beerus didn't lie, what do you mean he lied? who did he lie to? it was a retcon, it had nothing to do with Beerus as a character. And even if he was a dirty lier, what does that have to do with Goku's feelings about himself? and Goku was referring to the power, a world he couldn't achieve on his own, it had nothing to do with being calm or dense.

And this has nothing to do with the Buu saga or GT either, Goku knows how strong he was back then, and knows how strong he is right now, he tasted one finger of Beerus, and concluded the potara boost wouldn't do jack.
Also do you really think the best dramatic move was to have SSG weaker than the fusion and not use the fusion? that chapeans Beerus, when they were trying to build him up.
Do you really think Toriyama wrote a movie where they don't use their strongest option when the strongest enemy ever(status he might still keep) shows up and is about to blow up Earth?

That GT guide is pretty clear, and so was BoG, you can nitpick it out of existence to fit your idea if you like but it is still there. I don't think there is much I can say about this anymore.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:07 am

Retcons show Base Gogeta(no god ki usage as plain as day) is above God Vegeta and God Goku(obviously using God Ki) showing the power gain going from base form to base form fusion(they fused in base form) is that difference. They show base Kefla is above God Goku clearly. base to Super Saiyan God is weaker than the power that base form to base form fusion brings. Its super simple. You can say what you want but it doesn't change the facts. BTW Toriyama wrote Broly the movie. He chose base form fusion being stronger than God retconning the power it had BoG making my point stand.
So again

SS4 and SSGSS are on the same level and are treated as such in Heroes anime and Heroes manga and going by the fusion comparisons, with SSGod being the lesser between all 3. If you don't like that that's not my problem, it's yours for not liking the facts.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:16 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:07 am
Retcons show Base Gogeta(no god ki usage as plain as day) is above God Vegeta and God Goku. They show base Kefla is above God Goku. God form is weaker than the power that base form fusion brings. Its super simple. You can say what you want but it doesn't change the facts. BTW Toriyama wrote Broly the movie. He chose base form fusion being stronger than God retconning the power it had BoG making my point stand.
So again

SS4 and SSGSS are on the same level and are treated as such in Heroes anime and Heroes manga and going by the fusion comparisons, with SSGod being the lesser between all 3. If you don't like that that's not my problem, it's yours for not liking the facts.

SSJ4 is not equal to SSGSS, Heroes is a show about fan service. Which is fine but not a good source to judge power levels. Not to mention that SSJ4 Goku did the god ritual soo it makes a tad more sense. SSJ4 is said to release the utmost potential of a saiyan, if you have done the god ritual your potential is probably SSGSS so you know that makes more sense. Gogeta's base is equal to SSGSS Goku or Vegeta it seems so that's true but fusion on saiyans is not anywhere near god forms (with Kefla as an exception) Vegito in the Buu saga couldn't compare to SSG Goku so that's just false.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:25 am

You don't get it. Base form fusions are the base form powers added together and then multiplied tens of times(which goes up to 1,000x.. meaing A + B X 1,000 just for base form fusions. You don't add each users highest transformation into the power of the base form thats just fan headcanon and literally makes no sense. God Ritual did not exist in GT, and Heroes is the only media where both forms are portrayed with each other so don't "Oh heroes is fan service" when its not in your favor. Heroes Anime and Heroes Manga show they are on the same level of power in general. Like I said already if you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't make it not true.
Last edited by QuakingStar on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Psajdak » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:27 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:16 am
Vegito in the Buu saga couldn't compare to SSG Goku so that's just false.
How do you know?

Did you saw them fighting against each other?

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:30 am

Goku in the BoG Saga before he even did the God Ritual was farrrrr stronger than Goku in the Buu Saga going by how he was able to fight evenly with Kid Buu in his mental training with only Super Saiyan showing Goku had gotten at least 8x stronger than he was in the Buu Saga.. So BoG SSGod Goku may have been stronger than SS Vegito from the Buu Saga just because of the power level difference in the base forms from one point to the other.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:31 am

Psajdak wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:27 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:16 am
Vegito in the Buu saga couldn't compare to SSG Goku so that's just false.
How do you know?

Did you saw them fighting against each other?
No but Goku completely rejects the idea of fusion versing Beerus. Even if he was talking about Metamorean that was retconned to be equal to Potara so it doesn't matter. Not to mention after completing the ritual the first time, the one that failed, Goku was called the strongest warrior to ever live...... including....Vegito. So just imagine how strong the successful ritual God Goku would be

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:32 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:30 am
Goku in the BoG Saga before he even did the God Ritual was farrrrr stronger than Goku in the Buu Saga going by how he was able to fight evenly with Kid Buu in his mental training with only Super Saiyan showing Goku had gotten at least 8x stronger than he was in the Buu Saga.. So BoG SSGod Goku may have been stronger than SS Vegito from the Buu Saga just because of the power level difference in the base forms from one point to the other.
When did he fight kid Buu in mental training?

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:33 am

Yet again you fail to realize the power scaling of the God form and Beerus himself was retconned immediately after that arc ended. So you are using retconned information which is stupid. I already explained this shit.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:33 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:25 am
You don't get it. Base form fusions are the base form powers added together and then multiplied tens of times(which goes up to 1,000x.. meaing A + B X 1,000 just for base form fusions. You don't add each users highest transformation into the power of the base form thats just fan headcanon and literally makes no sense. God Ritual did not exist in GT, and Heroes is the only media where both forms are portrayed with each other so don't "Oh heroes is fan service" when its not in your favor. Heroes Anime and Heroes Manga show they are on the same level of power in general. Like I said already if you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't make it not true.
Xeno Goku isnt Gt Goku exactly... and Xeno Goku did do the ritual. There is no concrete way to identify fusion in a formula
Last edited by Mad Swami on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:34 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:33 am
Yet again you fail to realize the power scaling of the God form and Beerus himself was retconned immediately after that arc ended. So you are using retconned information which is stupid. I already explained this shit.
explained, poorly

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:35 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:33 am
Yet again you fail to realize the power scaling of the God form and Beerus himself was retconned immediately after that arc ended. So you are using retconned information which is stupid. I already explained this shit.
I am pretty sure the fusion statement stayed after the movie and so did the "strongest warrior" one...

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:37 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:32 am
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:30 am
Goku in the BoG Saga was able to fight evenly with Kid Buu in his mental training with only Super Saiyan showing Goku had gotten at least 8x stronger
When did he fight kid Buu in mental training?
???????

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:40 am

Xeno Goku only be came a SSGod in Ultimate Mission X which is seperate from Heroes... in the arcade, manga, and anime he never once went SSGod and didn't even know what it was.

The fight wasn't shown, but he was SS and was about to fight Kid Buu confidently in his mental training then his mental training was interrupted.

Also no the fusion statement did not stay after the movie. You must have missed the broly movie, or base kefla vs God Goku. If you don't know what you are talking about then don't comment. I explained it all just fine, you apparently lack the ability to read or know what context and retcons are.
Last edited by QuakingStar on Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:42 am

and yes there is, fusion has been said by Vados for Potara to be A + B multiplied tens of times( which as shown earlier in the thread goes up to 1,000x) and the perfect Guides says the same thing about Fusion Dance.. then the Broly movie goes on to say the same thing about Fusion dance again.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:45 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:25 am
You don't get it. Base form fusions are the base form powers added together and then multiplied tens of times(which goes up to 1,000x.. meaing A + B X 1,000 just for base form fusions. You don't add each users highest transformation into the power of the base form thats just fan headcanon and literally makes no sense. God Ritual did not exist in GT, and Heroes is the only media where both forms are portrayed with each other so don't "Oh heroes is fan service" when its not in your favor. Heroes Anime and Heroes Manga show they are on the same level of power in general. Like I said already if you don't like it thats fine, but it doesn't make it not true.
Wait, so your saying SSGSS has only a multiplier of AX2000? You said base fusion of Gogeta equals SSGSS Vegeta and Goku (I agree) But that would mean, if base Gogeta equals SSGSS Goku then you would have just said SSGSS has a multiplier of 2000. Humor me and say Vegeta and Goku are identical equals just for the sake of the argument. That means A=B meaning A+BX1000=AX2000. You are not saying that, you can't be.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:46 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:40 am
Xeno Goku only be came a SSGod in Ultimate Mission X which is seperate from Heroes... in the arcade, manga, and anime he never once went SSGod and didn't even know what it was.

The fight wasn't shown, but he was SS and was about to fight Kid Buu confidently in his mental training then his mental training was interrupted.

Also no the fusion statement did not stay after the movie. You must have missed the broly movie, or base kefla vs God Goku. If you don't know what you are talking about then don't comment. I explained it all just fine, you apparently lack the ability to read or know what context and retcons are.
Xeno Goku uses SSg in the manga to fight Cumber. And about understanding retcons I do, and also I missed nothing. Kefla's power is the only exception and Gogeta makes sense..... Goku and Vegeta's bases are ssg level. Did you forget, huh clearly you can't pay attention

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