Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Tue May 07, 2019 11:49 pm

Great Ape is confirmed 10x users current power level, Golden Great Ape is just Great Ape gone Super Saiyan, WHY would the 10x current power disappear? Don't come in here arguing nonsense if you're not going to actually contribute. SBV2 who is stronger than Majuub and Super Saiyan 3 Goku became a Golden Great Ape which is current power x10. If all you want to do is argue then leave.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 08, 2019 12:24 am

QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:49 pm
Great Ape is confirmed 10x users current power level, Golden Great Ape is just Great Ape gone Super Saiyan, WHY would the 10x current power disappear? Don't come in here arguing nonsense if you're not going to actually contribute. SBV2 who is stronger than Majuub and Super Saiyan 3 Goku became a Golden Great Ape which is current power x10. If all you want to do is argue then leave.
GGA Super Baby 2 is Super Baby 2 amplified with 1000x the normal amount of Blutz waves. It is a unique transformation. No official multipliers exist for this form, therefore 10x it is not a fact.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 1:42 am

Rakurai wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 11:14 pm
QuakingStar wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:59 pm
@ Rakurai This is about Super Saiyan 4's information AND power. So the power estimations based on the covering of power gaps are necessary. GGA Baby Vegeta is 10x stronger than SBV2 and that's a fact. Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta was tied in power with SS3 Goku. Super Saiyan 4's power increase has to be astronomical in order to cover the gap between SS3 Goku = Baby Vegeta Super Saiyan, to GGA Baby Vegeta. So it has to be 100x the power he had as a SS3 or even more than 100x that power. That's what I am trying to tell you

Second bold: I can say it's 2x stronger than SSJ3 Goku and you would have no evidence to the contrary. Any numbers for SSJ4 are speculation/headcanon.
Actually, just the fact that oozaru has a x10 multiplier is an evidence of ssj4 not being ssj3 x2
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 08, 2019 10:56 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:42 am

Actually, just the fact that oozaru has a x10 multiplier is an evidence of ssj4 not being ssj3 x2
GGA does not stack multiplicatively from SSJ3. No official source suggests SSJ3 is a prerequisite for GGA.

To make an example, assuming multipliers from the Super Exciting Guide apply (which I do not support btw, as they are arbitrary and information from it has been disproven by the series itself):

Hypothetical SSJ4 multiplier: SSJ x GA = 50 x 10 = 500.

Hypothetical SSJ3 multiplier: SSJ x SSJ2 x SSJ3 = 50x2x4 = 400

SSJ4 / SSJ3 = 500/400 = 1.25x the power of SSJ3. SSJ4 has even less than 2x the power of SSJ3.

And these are just arbitrary numbers to me. So I can say SSJ4 is 2x the power and there would be no official source to disprove that because a multiplier for SSJ4 does not exist.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 10:56 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:42 am

Actually, just the fact that oozaru has a x10 multiplier is an evidence of ssj4 not being ssj3 x2
GGA does not stack multiplicatively from SSJ3. No official source suggests SSJ3 is a prerequisite for GGA.

To make an example, assuming multipliers from the Super Exciting Guide apply (which I do not support btw, as they are arbitrary and information from it has been disproven by the series itself):

Hypothetical SSJ4 multiplier: SSJ x GA = 50 x 10 = 500.

Hypothetical SSJ3 multiplier: SSJ x SSJ2 x SSJ3 = 50x2x4 = 400

SSJ4 / SSJ3 = 500/400 = 1.25x the power of SSJ3. SSJ4 has even less than 2x the power of SSJ3.

And these are just arbitrary numbers to me. So I can say SSJ4 is 2x the power and there would be no official source to disprove that because a multiplier for SSJ4 does not exist.
Nedved told that ssj3 is,a prerequisite for GA, but in goku's case if that,wasn't ssj3 GA , golden oozaru Goku wouldn't have scared super baby 2 that much. It is implied that they are at least in the same tier.
Btw I'm ok with your point of view about multipliers from SEG , I think like that too
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)
My power levels https://tbphyvopowerlevels.forumcommunity.net/m/
In the folder named "PL DI TUTTE LE SERIE + AF (TOYO E JIJII), VERSIONE CON I MIEI MOLTIPLICATORI"
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 2:36 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 10:49 pm
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/press-archiv ... -qt-on-gt/ Super Saiyan 3 is needed to be able to use GGA.
MHHHH, ENGLISH ONLY BRUH
CERTAINLY NOT FROM TOEI. I WOULD NOT COUNT IT
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 pm

The absolute nonsense in thinking Super Saiyan 4 is only 1.25x stronger than Super Saiyan 3 is wild. SS Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku. He then powers up 2 more times and then goes GGA. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4. There is no way in HELL that Super Saiyan 4 is only x500 base power.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 4:24 pm

QuakingStar wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 pm
The absolute nonsense in thinking Super Saiyan 4 is only 1.25x stronger than Super Saiyan 3 is wild. SS Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku. He then powers up 2 more times and then goes GGA. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4. There is no way in HELL that Super Saiyan 4 is only x500 base power.
Yeah, like x1,25 is just the gap between ssj3 Goku and ssj baby vegeta possibly.
Even if it was the case, and saying that between his power ups there are minimal changes, Goku would need to take at least a x20 from ssj3 to close the gap (guaranteed that's carp anyway, obviously.)

But really :
To me it is ok to criticize the multipliers as numbers, if you say"ssj is not x50" I'm ok with it, I mean, it fits with super and cell saga, but not for buu saga imo.
So that's perfectly fine.and certainly not with gt, too.
But hell, criticizing even the gaps in between the forms?just why?they work just perfectly.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)
My power levels https://tbphyvopowerlevels.forumcommunity.net/m/
In the folder named "PL DI TUTTE LE SERIE + AF (TOYO E JIJII), VERSIONE CON I MIEI MOLTIPLICATORI"
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 08, 2019 5:23 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:34 pm
Nedved told that ssj3 is,a prerequisite for GA, but in goku's case if that,wasn't ssj3 GA , golden oozaru Goku wouldn't have scared super baby 2 that much. It is implied that they are at least in the same tier.
Btw I'm ok with your point of view about multipliers from SEG , I think like that too
Assigning a multiplier jump for which characters get scared is also arbitrary. Baby Vegeta gets angry or scared when his opponent is stronger than him, that's it.
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 pm
The absolute nonsense in thinking Super Saiyan 4 is only 1.25x stronger than Super Saiyan 3 is wild. SS Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku. He then powers up 2 more times and then goes GGA. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4. There is no way in HELL that Super Saiyan 4 is only x500 base power.
You conveniently forgot that Goku got his tail back, which is proven to increase one's own power as well. The fact that Goku was confident to go against Super Baby 2 w/ his tail and he could sustain SSJ3 for much longer indicates this. I don't care how many times they transform, all power increases are arbitrary and multipliers can range anywhere between 1.0...1 to infinity. Matter of fact, I just proved it to you using numbers straight from official sources so my argument is more legit than yours.

So I'll just conclude it with this. The absolute nonsense in thinking that SSJ4 is 100x SSJ3 is also wild. There is no way in HELL that SSJ4 is 100x stronger than SSJ3.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 5:46 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:23 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:34 pm
Nedved told that ssj3 is,a prerequisite for GA, but in goku's case if that,wasn't ssj3 GA , golden oozaru Goku wouldn't have scared super baby 2 that much. It is implied that they are at least in the same tier.
Btw I'm ok with your point of view about multipliers from SEG , I think like that too
Assigning a multiplier jump for which characters get scared is also arbitrary. Baby Vegeta gets angry or scared when his opponent is stronger than him, that's it.
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 4:10 pm
The absolute nonsense in thinking Super Saiyan 4 is only 1.25x stronger than Super Saiyan 3 is wild. SS Baby Vegeta was stronger than SS3 Goku. He then powers up 2 more times and then goes GGA. Goku only goes GGA and then SS4. There is no way in HELL that Super Saiyan 4 is only x500 base power.
You conveniently forgot that Goku got his tail back, which is proven to increase one's own power as well. The fact that Goku was confident to go against Super Baby 2 w/ his tail and he could sustain SSJ3 for much longer indicates this. I don't care how many times they transform, all power increases are arbitrary and multipliers can range anywhere between 1.0...1 to infinity. Matter of fact, I just proved it to you using numbers straight from official sources so my argument is more legit than yours.

So I'll just conclude it with this. The absolute nonsense in thinking that SSJ4 is 100x SSJ3 is also wild. There is no way in HELL that SSJ4 is 100x stronger than SSJ3.
The tail didn't boosted goku's power, and the fact is said both by baby himself and in gt perfect files. So, that isn't a factor.
And yes, if you follow what is stated in gt perfect files, ssj3 could absorbed ssj3 x100. I really see no problems in this.
And no, your argument isn't legitimate n it's just headcanon carp. You just don't accept the fact for whatever reason and you are trying to convince us that you are right. But hey, it doesn't work like this at all.
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)
My power levels https://tbphyvopowerlevels.forumcommunity.net/m/
In the folder named "PL DI TUTTE LE SERIE + AF (TOYO E JIJII), VERSIONE CON I MIEI MOLTIPLICATORI"
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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm

@ Rak Super Saiyan 4 is bare minimum x10 the power of SS3. It doesn't work if it's any less. You conveniently ignore the power gaps presented in the series and the gains made to cover the gaps, as well as the fact that although the tail does make the Saiyan a bit stronger, it isn't a big difference and in fact the effect that was pointed out in the series as well as in the Perfect Files of pulling out Goku's tail was that it helped him maintain Super Saiyan 3 better in a kid body. I find it funny how you say numbers don't mean anything and such, but then you go ahead and try to say it is x500 for Super Saiyan 4, you then go on to say that there's no proof that SBV2 got 10x stronger.. well guess what as shown with Goku and Vegeta they start out as Great Ape with the 10x Multiplier then their go Golden adding another multiplier to it. Seems to me you have your own head canon and if somebody doesn't agree with it then you go back to the "numbers and multipliers don't exist" and "there's no proof that the x10 for GA applies to GGA". Let's also not forget that Super Saiyan 4 is said to be a transformation FROM Golden Great Ape meaning there could easily be another multiplier there with that. Just leave the thread if that's how you want to act.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Baby Vegeta forms don’t have to necessarily follow the same pattern the Super Saiyan forms do, if they even have a pattern. And more importantly, the events of Dragon Ball GT tell us that SS3 isn’t a requirement to become a Golden Giant Ape (brutz waves?!). The thing about SS4 combining reason with the tremendous power of Golden Giant Ape and the point about SS4’s being too great for a little kid’s body to harness are also embellishments, but I admit they make sense. After all, part of the reason that Goku couldn’t sustain SS3’s power was because of his little kid’s body. And SS4 sounds more like a form better suited for battle than the Giant Great Ape.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by Rakurai » Wed May 08, 2019 11:34 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:46 pm
The tail didn't boosted goku's power, and the fact is said both by baby himself and in gt perfect files. So, that isn't a factor.
And yes, if you follow what is stated in gt perfect files, ssj3 could absorbed ssj3 x100. I really see no problems in this.
And no, your argument isn't legitimate n it's just headcanon carp. You just don't accept the fact for whatever reason and you are trying to convince us that you are right. But hey, it doesn't work like this at all.
You missed my point. I don't believe in these arbitrary multipliers. I put up some hypothetical argument based on some official numbers (which I stress again, I don't believe) to counter your points about this 100x crap. I can say it's 2x SSJ3 in Baby Vegeta arc, then it's 4x SSJ3 in Shadow Dragons arc after some time passing and cause powercreep, and none of you can disprove it completely cause there are NO official multipliers for SSJ4.

I thought the tail was a boost for GT Goku but it seems not after rechecking those episodes. But no it's not stated in the GT Perfect Files, they don't say anything about the tail boosting/not boosting power.
QuakingStar wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 6:40 pm
Just leave the thread if that's how you want to act.
You made a thread for discussion, if you can't handle the heat then step out of your own kitchen. Or just put me on ignore if you like.

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Re: Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

Post by QuakingStar » Thu May 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Everything you posted is already known and it is too vague. The reason for this thread is to find more information and to try and deduce things like power of the form based on details in the different main-stream medias, guides and official interviews where SS4, GT and Heroes is present including power gaps and power gaps being covered and beaten. You came in here to repost what was already posted on Herms translations thread. You repeating what is already known instead of actually trying to deduce further is pointless and me and hyvo have been trying to piece together it all. You apparently didn't understand that. So as we have so far deduced, Super Saiyan 4 is strong enough coming from SS3 that it covered the gap between Super Saiyan Baby Vegeta(who again equaled SS3 Goku in power) and Great Ape Baby Vegeta which is a HUGE jump in power. If we use the given multipliers from the series creators and licensors then SS is x50 base power, SS2 is SSx2, and SS3 is SS2x4 and Great Ape is 10x the current power of the user. SO using what we are ACTUALLY given. Goku has to be around 80x the power of SS3 when he uses SS4 vs Baby, and at bare minimum he should be 10x the power of SS3. Rildo's eng sub line was "you were using less than half of your power until now" when GT Goku goes Super Saiyan and that does not equate to SS being only double the power of base form he just says Goku's power more than doubled in plain terms.. while in the end dub he says "your power has increased a hundred-fold!" meaning Goku's power increased 100x from base power. The only figure we get concerning that more than double increase is from the perfect guides mentioning Super Saiyan is 50x the power of base form. So there-for we use the figure that's actually given. It is even mentioned here before it was confirmed in the daizenshuu guides.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14812 SS in GT is a 50x base power increase, making it more than double like Rildo essentially stated in the eng sub.

Saiyans are also confirmed to go back to base from Super Saiyan 4 state once they take a large amount of damage, for those who missed that.

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