The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Tue May 07, 2019 5:40 pm

What's your placement for the base Saiyajins during the Boo saga? Do you think they eventually surpassed Freeza? Or do you take Beerus' statement as evidence that the Tyrant had yet to be outstripped? Offer your input.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Desassina » Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm

They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ruler9871 » Tue May 07, 2019 7:27 pm

One thing people forget about BoG is that Beerus in that same scene said that SSJ1 Goku couldn't beat Freeza either (even though he saw Goku do just that on Namek through Whis's staff). So I always disregard Beerus's statement on Base Goku for that reason. He was likely just mocking Goku.

As for the Buu arc Base Saiyan's power levels, I personally think they surpassed Z-Freeza (and their SSJ Grade 1 selves) since they when in the Time Chamber in the Cell Saga, but were still below A18.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Tue May 07, 2019 9:59 pm

Barring Beerus's observations, there's arguments for both sides -- Vegeta's confidence of having the advantage at the 25th tournament without Super Saiyan (despite knowing of Piccolo/#18's participation and Goku still having access to the Kaioken), #18's fight with the base Saiyan kids (though they still felt it necessary to use a charged blast as Super Saiyans and with Krillin specifically instructing her to hold back for the sake of the other contestants), and Babidi deeming the three Saiyans to have amazing power while dismissing Piccolo (even though they were all suppressed and said wizard was under the impression that said three fighters, plus Shin, could be handled by Pui Pui and supply the remaining necessary power for releasing Buu).

I personally have them weaker than the cyborgs and Piccolo at least. Granted, it's difficult wedging them in behind Freeza when we have a solid numerical value of 3 million for Goku on Namek. They've only been improving themselves since then. I think Goku could probably give Freeza at 100% a tough fight using Kaioken x20 at the beginning of the Android arc (still coming up short and losing though, similar to his brief resurgence against 50%). Any time after having trained in the ROSAT and he isn't going to be straining himself so much with the technique while dominating the tyrant.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Tue May 07, 2019 10:11 pm

Their base forms were never anything special once SSJ+tier opponents started popping up so I think it is possible that the Base Saiyans didn't surpass Freeza's 100% state until DBS began. Its all subjective though since DB has no confirmed multiplier for how much stronger a fighter will get within one time skip or two worth of training. Goku's base only marginally improved after 7 years of afterlife training while Gohan can go from being somewhere above Super Boo to somewhere close to Golden Freeza from mere days of training.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Tue May 07, 2019 11:40 pm

I think the base kids are about as strong as #18 in their base states as per their more or less even scuffle at the Budokai, with #18 noticing how he (they) is unusually strong. The adult's base states would be significantly above that, but still seeing how Goten could keep Gohan on the ropes, it's argue able that the adults aren't that above #18, not multifolds so via scaling. They topping out at #16's level seems fair to me.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 3:13 am

Let's be objective :base Goku, Gohan and vegeta (inside babidi's ship) are all above shin in power, as babidi and dabra thought they were strong without knowing about the ssj, while they thought also that shin and piccolo were weaklings.
Definitely : yakon >=base Goku >base vegeta >base gohan >= pocus>shin>piccolo >ssj goten and trunks>18>>freezer

So yeah, numerically speaking they are well in the billions if you matter power levels, even over ssj Goku from cell games, as shin is said to be as strong as that version of ssj goku
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Wed May 08, 2019 11:04 am

Could Babidi's minions even be sensed, though? I don't recall them having their ki sensed outside of Vegeta who was only a Majin for a short time and wasn't a magical or arcane being. Goku described his ability to ascertain Yakon's location without visually seeing him by "feeling" the air currents around him. Combine that with Shin's apparent symbolophobia for all things Majin and I think his disconcertedness would have a place. Gohan himself was recommending that they work together to defeat Yakon without transforming.

I think the Kaioshins' aptitude tends to rest in their magical capabilities moreso than their physical strength. We know Shin is capable of restraining an SSJ2 level character and destroying, not just deflecting, a blast from Buu that's able to push an SSJ to the brink of death in one go. If you ask me, I even think Kibito could wield the Z-Sword, provided he hoisted and manoeuvred it using his own psychic abilities.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Kaboom » Wed May 08, 2019 11:42 am

We have at best a handful of indirect implications that the base Saiyans are stronger than the likes of Freeza/Piccolo/Shin, and then one solid, very-direct actual statement saying that they're not.

I'm pretty sure the direct statement takes priority. The Boo-arc implications to the contrary can all easily be rationalized some other way.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 08, 2019 12:49 pm

Battle of Gods pretty much ended this debate. After checking Goku, Beerus concluded he couldn’t beat Freeza without Super Saiyan. And none rectified him, so there is no reason to doubt his statement.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Speedster » Wed May 08, 2019 1:44 pm

Desassina wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm
They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.
That’s not true. Piccolo came out stronger than base Goten and base Trunks unfused, NOT stronger than base Gotenks. The whole point of Buutenks reverting to Buucolo was because the fusion time limit was reached and Gotenks split to base Goten and Base Trunks.

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:13 am
Definitely : yakon >=base Goku >base vegeta >base gohan >= pocus>shin>piccolo >ssj goten and trunks>18>>freezer
Yakon was not stronger or even on par with Goku. Base Goku was able to kick Yakon’s ass around even with the handicap of being in the dark and not seeing Yakon. If Yakon was 800 in the Kiri scale, base Goku was definitely above that, probably at 1000. Goku only went SSJ to show off that he could generate light if he wanted to.


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Anyway, on topic. I will never buy that the base Saiyans were below Namek arc Freeza by the Buu arc.
1. Piccolo is well above Namek Freeza and Dabra considered him a weakling only worthy of spitting on him and converting him into a stone statue. Meanwhile he wanted to pick the 3 strongest fighters and he chose the Saiyans who were in their base forms and he didn't know they were capable of transformation. He was actually surprised when Goku transformed into SSJ and even more so that he was outputting 3000 kiris so it is reaching to say that he counted "that hidden power" during his selection process.
2. Base (yep, base, not SSJ in the manga) Vegeta’s blast on Cell during the Kamehameha struggle of Cell with Gohan ultimately achieved something apparently better than what Piccolo could hope of achieving if he tried.
3. Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament in base, a tournament that included Piccolo and #18.
4. Base Goku and Base Gohan were able to carry around and handle the Z sword that Kibito, a kaioshin's attendant/bodyguard (a Kaioshin who is stated to be able to defeat 100% Namek Freeza with one blast) couldn't even lift off the ground.
5. Base Vegeta took hits from kid Buu and survived.

And here is something more interesting. Let’s take a look at the Kiri meters:
(i)In chapter 444 we are shown Yamu’s meter, which has 18 calibration dots, measuring SSJ2 Gohan at 13 dots (actually a bit more like 13.2). For the record in the anime the scene is a bit different. The anime shows the needle keep rotating around but also the colour of the dots is changing from black to red with each rotation. The meter has 21 dots total and 12 dots were shown converted into red.
(ii) In chapter 451 we are shown Babidi’s highest measuring energy device measuring SSJ1 Goku’s power as 10 dots out of 12 dots which was the maximum. In the anime we are not shown the scale this time.

The interesting bit here is that if we were to assume that one dot on Babidi’s meter equates to at least one red dot (i.e. a full rotation) on Yamu’s meter then since SSJ1 Goku’s 10 dots equate to 3000 kiri it follows that one Babidi’s dot=one Yamu’s “red dot”=300kiris. Therefore since rusty SSJ2 Gohan (in the manga) was at 13-13.2 “red dots” he had an energy level of around 4000 kiri. Rusty SSJ2 Gohan (or even not SSJ2 but SSJ1.5 so likely 3500kiri Gohan) Vs Dabra was more of a draw and Dabra was said to be on par or stronger than Perfect Cell. Which goes on to show how strong Goku had become as in suppressed SSJ1 he was at least 75% of Perfect Cell’s energy level and in base he was at around 1/3 of that i.e. at 25% Perfect Cell.

In the android arc, Piccolo was stronger than Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans and considerably weaker after that. Piccolo was as strong as 17 and Cell added 17 and 18 (who were about equal to each other) to his power. So even ignoring the power up of the “perfection”, Perfect Cell was at the very absolute minimum over 3x Piccolo. Of course you can easily factor the “perfection powerup” multiplier and make him be at least 5x Piccolo. So base Saiyans being ¼ of Perfect Cell places them at 1.25x of Android-saga Kamiccolo who is definitely above Namek Freeza by likely 3x. So mathematically base Saiyans are at least 4x Freeza.

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But hey what do all these mean, right? Super said something and according to some people on here it is the word of God. Super by the way, also had Piccolo being on par with a Zarbon level opponent and had the entire team of Piccolo, base Gohan, Roshi and Kurirn getting trashed by someone who was compared favourably against the Ginyu force. So yeah, Super is such a reliable source of power scaling that should take precedence of anything in the original manga...

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Desassina » Wed May 08, 2019 2:20 pm

Speedster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Desassina wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm
They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.
That’s not true. Piccolo came out stronger than base Goten and base Trunks unfused, NOT stronger than base Gotenks. The whole point of Buutenks reverting to Buucolo was because the fusion time limit was reached and Gotenks split to base Goten and Base Trunks.
A-hem. Quote:
Goku: "Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Emphasis placed on fused with a capital F was not my own. It's base Gotenks and only later Goten and Trunks because they were found like that in Evil Boo's stomach. Notice base Gotenks Piccolo Boo's bare chest, human facial features, detailed fingers and wide tentacle as well.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 08, 2019 2:47 pm

Speedster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 1:44 pm
Desassina wrote:
Tue May 07, 2019 6:16 pm
They could be anywhere: Piccolo's coming out stronger than base Gotenks in Evil Boo's absorption and Babidi or Dabura's statement about their energy was without the characters using it for power.
That’s not true. Piccolo came out stronger than base Goten and base Trunks unfused, NOT stronger than base Gotenks. The whole point of Buutenks reverting to Buucolo was because the fusion time limit was reached and Gotenks split to base Goten and Base Trunks.

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 3:13 am
Definitely : yakon >=base Goku >base vegeta >base gohan >= pocus>shin>piccolo >ssj goten and trunks>18>>freezer
Yakon was not stronger or even on par with Goku. Base Goku was able to kick Yakon’s ass around even with the handicap of being in the dark and not seeing Yakon. If Yakon was 800 in the Kiri scale, base Goku was definitely above that, probably at 1000. Goku only went SSJ to show off that he could generate light if he wanted to.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, on topic. I will never buy that the base Saiyans were below Namek arc Freeza by the Buu arc.
1. Piccolo is well above Namek Freeza and Dabra considered him a weakling only worthy of spitting on him and converting him into a stone statue. Meanwhile he wanted to pick the 3 strongest fighters and he chose the Saiyans who were in their base forms and he didn't know they were capable of transformation. He was actually surprised when Goku transformed into SSJ and even more so that he was outputting 3000 kiris so it is reaching to say that he counted "that hidden power" during his selection process.
2. Base (yep, base, not SSJ in the manga) Vegeta’s blast on Cell during the Kamehameha struggle of Cell with Gohan ultimately achieved something apparently better than what Piccolo could hope of achieving if he tried.
3. Vegeta was confident he could win the tournament in base, a tournament that included Piccolo and #18.
4. Base Goku and Base Gohan were able to carry around and handle the Z sword that Kibito, a kaioshin's attendant/bodyguard (a Kaioshin who is stated to be able to defeat 100% Namek Freeza with one blast) couldn't even lift off the ground.
5. Base Vegeta took hits from kid Buu and survived.

And here is something more interesting. Let’s take a look at the Kiri meters:
(i)In chapter 444 we are shown Yamu’s meter, which has 18 calibration dots, measuring SSJ2 Gohan at 13 dots (actually a bit more like 13.2). For the record in the anime the scene is a bit different. The anime shows the needle keep rotating around but also the colour of the dots is changing from black to red with each rotation. The meter has 21 dots total and 12 dots were shown converted into red.
(ii) In chapter 451 we are shown Babidi’s highest measuring energy device measuring SSJ1 Goku’s power as 10 dots out of 12 dots which was the maximum. In the anime we are not shown the scale this time.

The interesting bit here is that if we were to assume that one dot on Babidi’s meter equates to at least one red dot (i.e. a full rotation) on Yamu’s meter then since SSJ1 Goku’s 10 dots equate to 3000 kiri it follows that one Babidi’s dot=one Yamu’s “red dot”=300kiris. Therefore since rusty SSJ2 Gohan (in the manga) was at 13-13.2 “red dots” he had an energy level of around 4000 kiri. Rusty SSJ2 Gohan (or even not SSJ2 but SSJ1.5 so likely 3500kiri Gohan) Vs Dabra was more of a draw and Dabra was said to be on par or stronger than Perfect Cell. Which goes on to show how strong Goku had become as in suppressed SSJ1 he was at least 75% of Perfect Cell’s energy level and in base he was at around 1/3 of that i.e. at 25% Perfect Cell.

In the android arc, Piccolo was stronger than Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans and considerably weaker after that. Piccolo was as strong as 17 and Cell added 17 and 18 (who were about equal to each other) to his power. So even ignoring the power up of the “perfection”, Perfect Cell was at the very absolute minimum over 3x Piccolo. Of course you can easily factor the “perfection powerup” multiplier and make him be at least 5x Piccolo. So base Saiyans being ¼ of Perfect Cell places them at 1.25x of Android-saga Kamiccolo who is definitely above Namek Freeza by likely 3x. So mathematically base Saiyans are at least 4x Freeza.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But hey what do all these mean, right? Super said something and according to some people on here it is the word of God. Super by the way, also had Piccolo being on par with a Zarbon level opponent and had the entire team of Piccolo, base Gohan, Roshi and Kurirn getting trashed by someone who was compared favourably against the Ginyu force. So yeah, Super is such a reliable source of power scaling that should take precedence of anything in the original manga...
TOTALLY ok with you.
But, having yakon = 800 Kiri, I'd place Goku at 750, you know, just to have ssj= x4 instead of x3,cause 4 is,a better number(?)
Btw I prefer it

Regarding dbs thing, the possible exceptions are 2 :

Goku was just holding back when base beerus spotted him . He,was training after all, why would he have been fullpower?

Beerus was just taunting

Simple retcon, dc/marvel style retcon :
Example : buu saga Goku = 100'000'000 000
Bog Goku = 100'000'000

Because?because why not. Marvel/dc does that continuously. Obviously, the other characters in bog would scale to the "weakened" goku
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Speedster » Wed May 08, 2019 2:58 pm

Desassina wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:20 pm
A-hem. Quote:
Goku: "Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Emphasis placed on fused with a capital F was not my own. It's base Gotenks and only later Goten and Trunks because they were found like that in Evil Boo's stomach. Notice base Gotenks Piccolo Boo's bare chest, human facial features, detailed fingers and wide tentacle as well.
First I would like to start by saying that this is the first time I have seen anybody anywhere making this bizarre claim that Buucolo was base Gotenks + Piccolo and that Piccolo is stronger than post ROSAT base Gotenks. In any event you are misinterpreting Goku’s words here. What he clearly means is that the kids went from being in a fused state back to normal i.e. to being unfused, i.e. they split. It is clear that he means so, as he follows his statement with the “you ran out of time!” and the only thing that was explicitly given a time limit was fusion. I am guessing you will refer to Trunks saying they can only maintain SSJ3 for 5 minutes but exactly we were shown before that when that time limit is reached the whole fusion runs out and they split, they don't just revert from SSJ3 Gotenks to base Gotenks.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 08, 2019 3:16 pm

I agree with @Speedster here. I wouldn't take the BoG's statement over the manga's implications, considering the BoG's statement can also be rationalized in other ways.

To clarify and go more in depth:

-Beerus was basing his words on Goku's appearance. He'd already seen SSJ Goku in Whis' crystal ball and Goku's base self was clearly far different physically.
- Manga-wise, there is no Base Goku < Freeza statement. Freeza only ever gets mentioned after Goku goes SSJ2, making the statement even more meaningless.
- General scaling. Pre-God Goku at his peak is implied to be above Gotenks and Gohan anime-wise and even if giving Goku a far higher multiplier than Gotenks, it'll still be nigh-impossible for him to end up weaker than Freeza with the power creep that went on in the Cell and Boo Arcs.
- Goku was at his resting level, so not an accurate estimation on Beerus' part. The argument that Beerus' examination allowed him to know Goku's full base power from that alone has no evidence backing it up, given that Beerus wouldn't even know Saiyajins could control their Ki to such an extent and all other instances of him examining someone's power was through battle.

So I don't think it has settled the debate by any means.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Lionel » Wed May 08, 2019 3:30 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 11:42 am
We have at best a handful of indirect implications that the base Saiyans are stronger than the likes of Freeza/Piccolo/Shin, and then one solid, very-direct actual statement saying that they're not.

I'm pretty sure the direct statement takes priority. The Boo-arc implications to the contrary can all easily be rationalized some other way.
It can take some rationalisation, yeah. One argument that's been put forth is that the Super Saiyan transformation's multiplayer decreased over time as the arcs progressed and the characters became stronger (allowing the Saiyans' base forms to be booted up to higher standards). I understand Toriyama originally intended for SSJ to be equivalent of a 10x multiplier. When you consider how the Oozaru form in the original manga text was described as being a 10x boost and with the Kaioken boasting a multiplier that's double 10x, it sounds like it shortchanges Super Saiyan when it's only comparable to Oozaru except in a smaller humanoid state with golden hair and with a technique from the previous arc being stronger than it.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Desassina » Wed May 08, 2019 5:09 pm

Speedster wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 2:58 pm
First I would like to start by saying that this is the first time I have seen anybody anywhere making this bizarre claim that Buucolo was base Gotenks + Piccolo and that Piccolo is stronger than post ROSAT base Gotenks.
My first would be that it's a claim. "Bizzarre" only when given the proper analysis and conclusion, which you clearly haven't presented before calling it what you did, and that speaks volumes about the bias that is about to come.
In any event you are misinterpreting Goku’s words here. What he clearly means is that the kids went from being in a fused state back to normal i.e. to being unfused, i.e. they split. It is clear that he means so, as he follows his statement with the “you ran out of time!” and the only thing that was explicitly given a time limit was fusion. I am guessing you will refer to Trunks saying they can only maintain SSJ3 for 5 minutes but exactly we were shown before that when that time limit is reached the whole fusion runs out and they split, they don't just revert from SSJ3 Gotenks to base Gotenks.
A few things wrong here:

1. The fused kids (a.k.a Gotenks) went back to normal. They did it before when they lost Super Saiyan 3 and only then unfused. Goku had a similar reaction.
2. Evil Boo, not the kids, ran out of time, which means that his power isn't what it used to be, and that it can be SSJ3 Gotenks losing power down to base for Piccolo to show up.
3. Fusion time seemed to be greater on Evil Boo when he said that he had 30 minutes instead of just 5. Either that or he used only SSJ Gotenks's power. He has access to their memories.
4. Vegeta asked Goku whether Gotenks had unfused like Vegetto did once he lowered his defenses. The reply was something along the lines of "they ran out of time" and it's one instance when they were separate.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:34 pm

Gotenks didn't immediately defuse once his SSJ3 ran out of time against Boo, granted, but it's worth noting that they could remain a fused being for 30 minutes, and only 5 using the SSJ3 transformation. So maybe the SSJ3 ran out of time, but not the fusion itself, with some minutes still remaining to complete the 30 ones. But Boo apparently could use more time from the SSJ3, as he noticed there are 10 minutes remaining for the fusion to end up... so it's possible that he used the full 30 minutes of the fusion and therefore Gotenks reverted back to Goten and Trunks.

Secondly, Boo doesn't always take the form of the stronger absorbed, as seen when he absorbed South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin and still took Dai's influence, despite it had been stated South is stronger.

And last but not least, we can see that there's still a clear difference between Booccolo (who appeared once Goku took Gohan and the kids off) and Booccolo + the kids, as we can see by his more developed fingers and the antenae. Piccolo wasn't the only one influencing him considering this.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Desassina » Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm

And all those things that were stated directly were cast doubt upon because we want to believe that base Gotenks is all that? Count me out man!

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 08, 2019 5:41 pm

Desassina wrote:
Wed May 08, 2019 5:40 pm
And all those things that were stated directly were cast doubt upon because we want to believe that base Gotenks is all that? Count me out man!
Which things?

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