The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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Shintoki
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Wed May 15, 2019 4:53 pm

Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 10:18 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm
Sūpāsaiya wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 12:43 pm


snip

snip
i don't know about the kiri thing
kiri, is the power unit measurement that was introduced in the boo saga by babidi. kiri is a pun for riki which means power, strength in japanese.
If Goku NEVER got stronger in Base after SSj, how'd he surpass SSj2 Gohan as a SSj2? (I don't really get your argument tbh, correct me if I got it wrong, lol).
i will presume you mean cell saga SS2 gohan.

MSS goku was stated to be above the others (the gang) when goku was charging up to face cell by krillin. so naturally: SS2 goku > SS2 gohan > MSS goku > MSS gohan.
In "Yo! Son Goku And Friends Return", Tarble mentions that Base Goku's power wouldn't be enough to defeat Abo and Cado,
that was before he charged up though, even vegeta corrected tarbles about that.
yet Trunks and Goten in Base casually slap the both of them. For obivous reasons, Trunks and Goten are not stronger than Goku. Goku was just supressing himself in Base, and then powered up to his max, THEN went SSj.
trunks was more than enough according to vegeta, goten was just added by goku's insistence. but according to abo and cado, their battle/comabt powers were low, and that would be lower than 530K?. could be that they were suppressed.

note: it's predictable that they would be losing to someone with a highter battle power, but its odd that they never resorted to simply leveling up their battle power if they have the capability speaking. at least gohan guided them to victory.

coincidentally enough, it shows that someone with a lower battle power can beat another with a highter one if they are more skilled
To debunk the statment of Goku's Base being weaker than Frieza, I'd just go back to my previous point. Goku was suppressed. It sounds like I'm making an excuse by always saying: "Uh-Uh, Goku was suppressed" but, that's how dragonball has always worked. Vegeta suppresses his power to be at Cui's level, then powers-up and one-shots him, Goku suppresses his power level against the Ginyu force, etc.
pardon but goku suppressing his power against beerus means he never showed up his true power which is contradicatory and an assumption. goku suppressing and unsupressing momentarily, against the ginyu force was due to them relaying in their scouters to measure their opponents' battle powers. and beerus doesn't need a scouter, obviously. :think:

that's about it

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:18 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm
snip
1. The "Yo! Son Goku And Friends Return" argument is pretty weak. Abo & Cado were both said to have surpassed Freeza, yet Goten & Kid Trunks (both of whom are weaker than Goku, Vegeta & Gohan) were able to stomp Abo & Cado in just their Base forms. This means that all of the Saiyans surpassed Z-Freeza in base.
not sure where you got that, but they were stated to be as strong. and that only refers to his first form since tarble only knows about that one.
2. If Goku and the other's base forms never changed before BoG, then there's no way Goku & Vegeta could have surpassed Cell Games Gohan (who had the strongest base of all Saiyans at the time) with just SSJ2 in the Buu Saga.
Goku was always above gohan in the cell saga though, krillin commented that goku's MSS was above them.(without accounting SS2, of course). so naturally an SS2 goku > SS2 gohan.

i don't agree with the reasons for putting vegeta base as the strongest.

piccolo only implied a probability. nothing certain, vegeta was around cell saga SS2 Gohan, could be highter, could be lower. nothing evident enough to make a certain judgement as seen with piccolo.

even if i give you the benefit of doubt and it was highter, it was so minimal that piccolo was unsure if vegeta was highter than gohan or not. so he would be barely any stronger than an SS2 preteen Gohan , which is not saying much.

note:. and that only works if you consider base gohan > base Goku during the cell saga. which is just inconveivable. imo.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ruler9871 » Wed May 15, 2019 8:12 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:18 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 7:50 pm
snip
1. The "Yo! Son Goku And Friends Return" argument is pretty weak. Abo & Cado were both said to have surpassed Freeza, yet Goten & Kid Trunks (both of whom are weaker than Goku, Vegeta & Gohan) were able to stomp Abo & Cado in just their Base forms. This means that all of the Saiyans surpassed Z-Freeza in base.
not sure where you got that, but they were stated to be as strong. and that only refers to his first form since tarble only knows about that one.
2. If Goku and the other's base forms never changed before BoG, then there's no way Goku & Vegeta could have surpassed Cell Games Gohan (who had the strongest base of all Saiyans at the time) with just SSJ2 in the Buu Saga.
Goku was always above gohan in the cell saga though, krillin commented that goku's MSS was above them.(without accounting SS2, of course). so naturally an SS2 goku > SS2 gohan.

i don't agree with the reasons for putting vegeta base as the strongest.

piccolo only implied a probability. nothing certain, vegeta was around cell saga SS2 Gohan, could be highter, could be lower. nothing evident enough to make a certain judgement as seen with piccolo.

even if i give you the benefit of doubt and it was highter, it was so minimal that piccolo was unsure if vegeta was highter than gohan or not. so he would be barely any stronger than an SS2 preteen Gohan , which is not saying much.

note:. and that only works if you consider base gohan > base Goku during the cell saga. which is just inconveivable. imo.

1. Goku (who's only ever seen & fought Final Form Freeza) himself said that base Goten & base Trunks could easily beat Abo & Cado and nobody disagreed.

2. The series made it clear that Gohan even before unlocking SSJ2 was the strongest Saiyan in the Cell Games. He was the only character (besides Cell) that was completely unfased by Goku's full power in that saga when he powered up. Nothing stated that Goku was stronger
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Wed May 15, 2019 8:45 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:12 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2019 12:18 pm




not sure where you got that, but they were stated to be as strong. and that only refers to his first form since tarble only knows about that one.


Goku was always above gohan in the cell saga though, krillin commented that goku's MSS was above them.(without accounting SS2, of course). so naturally an SS2 goku > SS2 gohan.

i don't agree with the reasons for putting vegeta base as the strongest.

piccolo only implied a probability. nothing certain, vegeta was around cell saga SS2 Gohan, could be highter, could be lower. nothing evident enough to make a certain judgement as seen with piccolo.

even if i give you the benefit of doubt and it was highter, it was so minimal that piccolo was unsure if vegeta was highter than gohan or not. so he would be barely any stronger than an SS2 preteen Gohan , which is not saying much.

note:. and that only works if you consider base gohan > base Goku during the cell saga. which is just inconveivable. imo.

1. Goku (who's only ever seen & fought Final Form Freeza) himself said that base Goten & base Trunks could easily beat Abo & Cado and nobody disagreed.

2. The series made it clear that Gohan even before unlocking SSJ2 was the strongest Saiyan in the Cell Games. He was the only character (besides Cell) that was completely unfased by Goku's full power in that saga when he powered up. Nothing stated that Goku was stronger
1. Goku (who's only ever seen & fought Final Form Freeza) himself said that base Goten & base Trunks could easily beat Abo & Cado and nobody disagreed.
no one argued that goten or trunks could not defeat abo and cado, literally no one argued that. in fact, it would be ridiculous if they are not able to at least defeat a first form level freeza character/s
2. The series made it clear that Gohan even before unlocking SSJ2 was the strongest Saiyan in the Cell Games. He was the only character (besides Cell) that was completely unfased by Goku's full power in that saga when he powered up. Nothing stated that Goku was stronger
made it clear through what?. i see none of that alleged clarity in the show.

gohan trained with goku in rosat, why would he be unfased with a power he is already familiar with?, that make no sense. and is a poor reason to think gohan > goku. specially, when gohan performed worse when fighting a no FP cell.

krillin did and no one corrected and/or disagreed with him.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 15, 2019 10:13 pm

That discussion has nothing to do with this thread. But anyway, Cell confirmed SS Gohan had greater battle power than SS Goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me...”

Also, a Freeza-level opponent should not be difficult for the kids, since both can use Super Saiyan and Fusion on top of that. But they were so incompetent that SS Goku finished Abo and Cado.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:13 pm
That discussion has nothing to do with this thread. But anyway, Cell confirmed SS Gohan had greater battle power than SS Goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me...”

Also, a Freeza-level opponent should not be difficult for the kids, since both can use Super Saiyan and Fusion on top of that. But they were so incompetent that SS Goku finished Abo and Cado.
........ :eh: all cell confirmed was that goku's bluff wasn't entirely false, but cell remarks immediately that it was still an overstatement or an exaggeration if you would, to his no FP no less

not only that but no one says that gohan's power up was higher than goku's power up. and gohan performing worse and getting beaten up by a no FP cell

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Thu May 16, 2019 1:46 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:13 pm
That discussion has nothing to do with this thread. But anyway, Cell confirmed SS Gohan had greater battle power than SS Goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me...”

Also, a Freeza-level opponent should not be difficult for the kids, since both can use Super Saiyan and Fusion on top of that. But they were so incompetent that SS Goku finished Abo and Cado.
........ :eh: all cell confirmed was that goku's bluff wasn't entirely false, but cell remarks immediately that it was still an overstatement or an exaggeration if you would, to his no FP no less

not only that but no one says that gohan's power up was higher than goku's power up. and gohan performing worse and getting beaten up by a no FP cell
Uhm... pretty much everyone was shocked more in seeing gohan's power than in seeing goku's...
Sure, Gohan was more unexpected, but he muted vegeta and piccolo (who believed him to be weaker than them) immediately.
And the chapter in which Gohan starts to fight is literally called "the strongest fighter"
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ruler9871 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 am

Shintoki wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:45 pm
ruler9871 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 8:12 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 6:51 pm



1. Goku (who's only ever seen & fought Final Form Freeza) himself said that base Goten & base Trunks could easily beat Abo & Cado and nobody disagreed.

2. The series made it clear that Gohan even before unlocking SSJ2 was the strongest Saiyan in the Cell Games. He was the only character (besides Cell) that was completely unfased by Goku's full power in that saga when he powered up. Nothing stated that Goku was stronger
1. Goku (who's only ever seen & fought Final Form Freeza) himself said that base Goten & base Trunks could easily beat Abo & Cado and nobody disagreed.
no one argued that goten or trunks could not defeat abo and cado, literally no one argued that. in fact, it would be ridiculous if they are not able to at least defeat a first form level freeza character/s
2. The series made it clear that Gohan even before unlocking SSJ2 was the strongest Saiyan in the Cell Games. He was the only character (besides Cell) that was completely unfased by Goku's full power in that saga when he powered up. Nothing stated that Goku was stronger
made it clear through what?. i see none of that alleged clarity in the show.

gohan trained with goku in rosat, why would he be unfased with a power he is already familiar with?, that make no sense. and is a poor reason to think gohan > goku. specially, when gohan performed worse when fighting a no FP cell.

krillin did and no one corrected and/or disagreed with him.
1.You are missing the point. Goku assumed that Abo and Cado are equal to 100% Z-Freeza (because that's the only one he fought), yet still thought Goten & Trunks could take them in just base (which they did). Nothing in the OVA says that Abo & Cado are only 1st form Freeza level.

2. The only reason FP Gohan performed worse than FP Goku was because Gohan didn't even want to fight until he got enraged. So that's a bad argument to say Goku was stronger because of that.

Gohan was also unfazed by Perfect Cell's near-full power (which he had never seen before) when he fought Goku while everybody else was shocked and blown away.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 7:24 am

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 am
........ :eh: all cell confirmed was that goku's bluff wasn't entirely false, but cell remarks immediately that it was still an overstatement or an exaggeration if you would, to his no FP no less
If you have any doubts, check the other lines in Strength Checker Thread. But this one is pretty direct. SS Gohan has greater battle power than SS Goku, but not as great as Cell’s. That much is obvious since Cell wasn’t able to hit Gohan with the same level he used against Goku, and when Cell managed to hit him, Gohan’s battle power didn’t fall a bit.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Thu May 16, 2019 9:17 am

The chapter is also entitled "the warrior who surpassed Goku".

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Yosheets » Thu May 16, 2019 12:33 pm

I used to place the Base Saiyans above Piccolo. Now I believe Piccolo to be higher than them in power. I go by the implications of Piccolo's strength in the Cell Games, because the storytelling in Babidi's Ship is just ridiculous.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 12:50 pm

Babidi’s minor fights purpose is to clear up that the Saiyans are not only strong mortals with plenty energy, but mortals that are stronger than Dabra and Kaioshin. Piccolo’s purpose was to reveal a troublesome Dabra’s skill that they should take care of.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 1:10 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:46 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:13 pm
That discussion has nothing to do with this thread. But anyway, Cell confirmed SS Gohan had greater battle power than SS Goku.

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me...”

Also, a Freeza-level opponent should not be difficult for the kids, since both can use Super Saiyan and Fusion on top of that. But they were so incompetent that SS Goku finished Abo and Cado.
........ :eh: all cell confirmed was that goku's bluff wasn't entirely false, but cell remarks immediately that it was still an overstatement or an exaggeration if you would, to his no FP no less

not only that but no one says that gohan's power up was higher than goku's power up. and gohan performing worse and getting beaten up by a no FP cell
Uhm... pretty much everyone was shocked more in seeing gohan's power than in seeing goku's...
Sure, Gohan was more unexpected, but he muted vegeta and piccolo (who believed him to be weaker than them) immediately.
And the chapter in which Gohan starts to fight is literally called "the strongest fighter"
them being shocked that gohan has that amount of battle power does not translate to gohan having more battle power than goku. can you cite me.?, because i read the manga and the chapter where gohan fights cell is called: ''let's go, gohan''.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 1:19 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 7:24 am
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 am
........ :eh: all cell confirmed was that goku's bluff wasn't entirely false, but cell remarks immediately that it was still an overstatement or an exaggeration if you would, to his no FP no less
If you have any doubts, check the other lines in Strength Checker Thread. But this one is pretty direct. SS Gohan has greater battle power than SS Goku, but not as great as Cell’s. That much is obvious since Cell wasn’t able to hit Gohan with the same level he used against Goku, and when Cell managed to hit him, Gohan’s battle power didn’t fall a bit.
i'm already aware that goku intended for gohan to surpass him, and gohan did when he awakened his power (SS2) in rosat as stated by goku. what i rejects however is the idea of Base Gohan > base Goku in the cell saga.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:19 pm
i'm already aware that goku intended for gohan to surpass him, and gohan did when he awakened his power (SS2) in rosat as stated by goku. what i rejects however is the idea of Base Gohan > base Goku in the cell saga.
There is no reason to reject this idea. If SS Gohan is stronger than SS Goku, the same could be said about their regular forms. It was already clarified that Gohan have surpassed Goku before he uses SS2.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:31 pm

Goku said Gohan was stronger than both himself and Cell. Cell said Goku overstated things by saying he (Gohan) could defeat him. Naturally that would mean Goku wasn't off about Gohan being stronger than himself.

In Gohan's eyes, Goku's power was nothing impressive. This was shown every time Gohan was thinking to himself about Goku's power.

The chapter where he introduced Gohan is called "The One who surpasses Goku/The Successor":

Image

Just about everything points to Gohan being the stronger of the two.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:27 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:19 pm
i'm already aware that goku intended for gohan to surpass him, and gohan did when he awakened his power (SS2) in rosat as stated by goku. what i rejects however is the idea of Base Gohan > base Goku in the cell saga.
There is no reason to reject this idea. If SS Gohan is stronger than SS Goku, the same could be said about their regular forms. It was already clarified that Gohan have surpassed Goku before he uses SS2.
how is SS gohan stronger than an SS goku?. absurd, the performance comparisons between those two fights speak for themselves.

cell even remarks that it was an exaggeration by goku to state that gohan can defeat him, and cell wad fighting at a level that according to him,was to well match goku for entertainment. he was demolishing gohan once he got serious and thought he died. and Yes, 'm aware gohan was holding back but that only speaks for offense, not defense.

that clarifty is about SS2 gohan, imo. not SS Gohan, there are so many contradicatory statements and feats. to think base Gohan > base goku.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 1:52 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm
how is SS gohan stronger than an SS goku?. absurd, the performance comparisons between those two fights speak for themselves.
Goku says Gohan was stronger than himself and Cell. Gohan reveals his SS power. Cell says Goku wasn’t completely wrong and overstated part of his implication i.e Gohan is stronger than Goku but weaker than Cell. Gohan reveals his SS2 power. Goku is completely right now. Gohan is stronger than Cell...

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:52 pm
Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:45 pm
how is SS gohan stronger than an SS goku?. absurd, the performance comparisons between those two fights speak for themselves.
Goku says Gohan was stronger than himself and Cell. Gohan reveals his SS power. Cell says Goku wasn’t completely wrong and overstated part of his implication i.e Gohan is stronger than Goku but weaker than Cell. Gohan reveals his SS2 power. Goku is completely right now. Gohan is stronger than Cell...
let's do this in steps then:

cell powers up to a level that well match goku, goku admits that cell is stronger than him and claims gohan is stronger than him and cell.

gohan powers up, cell state that goku wasn't entirely bluffing, but still overstated gohan being stronger than him. cell remarks gohan will die before he can even land a hit.

cell tries to toy with gohan, but gohan dodge it all. cell gets serious and starts beating gohan. he state he overdid it and thinks gohan has died and invite goku to fight again,. gohan stands up. the beat up is resumed with an attempt by cell to enrage gohan.

alright, please tell me where in any of those does gohan show any level higher than goku?

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu May 16, 2019 2:18 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 pm
alright, please tell me where in any of those does gohan show any level higher than goku?
Obviously the part that Cell said Goku overstated was that Gohan was stronger than Cell, the part that Cell admitted that was right is that Gohan is stronger than Goku. It’s really that simple. If Gohan was equal or weaker than Goku, Cell would just say Goku is completely wrong.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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