The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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Hugo Boss
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 20, 2019 8:55 am

@p-hyvo (referring to the last post of the previous page), you are using a factor that suits your opinion, and I use another that suits mine. You don’t get to choose which one is correct.

Vegeta was obviously comparing himself to the other Saiyans and ignoring everyone else. That’s the instance we have confirmation Super Saiyan has a common factor. He never told he didn’t need Super Saiyan to beat Piccolo and No.18. If by any chance, he ended up in a match against them, he would do just as much as Goten and Trunks did when they fought without any effort.

Shin just wanted to use that strategy, because he didn’t have a clue about how the fight between Babidi henchmen and the Saiyans would play out. And of course to not give any energy to Boo if it was a close match. Since he didn’t have the real knowledge and only had reputation to go by, he was acting with prudence, while the Saiyans were being stupid.

And Dabra and Babidi..., they thought Pui Pui would be able to handle all at once, which really shows how extensive their knowledge is. They couldn’t even measure ki, they needed a powerlevel device to be able to tell. So, the story tell us we shouldn’t give any credit to what Shin, Babidi and Dabra think in this matter. Freeza and Cell are out of question, because they died.

I still don’t understand your explanation to why you think the factor of 50 is wrong. When Babidi measures Goku’s powerlevel, Goku probably wasn’t at full power, he just needed to enlighten the room.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Shintoki » Mon May 20, 2019 10:59 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:22 am
Shintoki wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 11:17 pm
better yet, why not just write a and call it a day. like seriously, those numbers are absurd.

official material state Yakon level of Power was 40M.
I’m still waiting for explanation for why those numbers are absurd. The lack of it makes me think you just haven’t one.

The official material you mean is the same V-Jump scan that says 1 kiri equals 50,000 in the former scale and that SS Goku had 150M by the time he fights Boo? I’m not sure how it relates to this thread. Perhaps you want to tell that Base Goku has to be at 3M too.
i thought that was clear enough. but to clarify more:

Unless Yakon was holding back, there is no reason to think that an official battle power is incorrect. since it's well possible that goku was.

it's the same reason i wouldn't dare to state that trunks & goten battle powers are lower than 530K because it's well possible they were suppressed when they were scaned by the scouters.

and that's taken from when goku fought Yakon, not boo. i'm stating that if Goku was 90M, he would stomp Yakon quite literally and metaphorically.

for all what's it's worth. goku compared dabra to cell, and goku was aware of "SPC". dabra stated that even 4000 kiri=200m cannot beat him. so he would be somewhat around that level, the 200m range. otherwise, he would have stated 5000 kiri instead.

i think it's fair to use those informations since dbz is canon to TV super.



p-hyvo wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 2:27 am
For Decent gaps i mean like : if one is dominated by someone else, difference of x1,25.If oneshotted, difference of x1,33.

Then, allow me to correct your power levels

[...]

BUU SAGA

here, the adult base saiyans are implied to be stronger than piccolo and shin a bunch of times, both by vegeta, shin and dabra. In but saga, using the x50 multiplier is totally uncomfortable, so I'll use a x4 multiplier for ssj

[...]

Beerus was just taunting him saying that weaker than freezer thing.just don't consider that
You know the factor you are using for “decent gaps” is a made-up one, don’t you? Vegeta didn’t need nowhere near over 10% of power difference to one-shot Dodoria. You can’t seriously expect that others are obligated to follow it. You are not correcting anything.

Vegeta, Kaioshin and Dabra never implied the Base Saiyans were that strong. You are making some confusion here, because they are obviously factoring their hidden potential whenever they talked about Goku and the other Saiyans. Why exactly you feel “uncomfortable” of using the factor of 50 for Super Saiyan instead of a made-up one?

Beerus had no reason to lie about what he said, since SS3 is nothing to him. He was just showing that even if Goku and Freeza are ants to him, he is able to tell Super Saiyan has the power to defeat Freeza and that Base has not. This is the most direct it can be.
well said. :clap:

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 20, 2019 12:50 pm

Shintoki wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 10:59 am
i'm stating that if Goku was 90M, he would stomp Yakon quite literally and metaphorically.
Your post is messed up, but I think you are trying to say the numbers I came up are too high. I actually have no problem with that. I just don’t think SS Goku’s battle power was really at 150M when he used it against Yakon, but I concur with the idea that he could have kept Super Saiyan to a lower level just to light up the room.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 21, 2019 12:43 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 3:49 pm
Since this has a bit of relation to the thread, I will try to use just the base Saiyan.

Goku (vs. Freeza) - 3M
Goku (vs. Cell) - 30M
Gohan (vs Cell) - 35M
Goku (vs Boo) - 45M
Goku (vs Beerus) - 50M
Freeza - 120M

So, in your scale, if Goku was a 6, Gohan was a 7.
So BoG Goku KKx10 would be around 500M... enought to deal with Freeza, right? A KKx3 would be enough too.
Perhaps KKx2 would also do the job, if regular kaioken doubles his 50M then he is around 100M and with KKx2 would be 150M. The kaioken multiplier is kinda messed up, but anyhow KKx3 should def do the job if Goku was 50M by the time BoG happened. A technique Beerus knew nothing about.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 21, 2019 2:37 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:43 pm
[Kaioken] A technique Beerus knew nothing about.
That’s why it wasn’t a factor when Beerus compared Goku with Freeza. Apparently, Goku doesn’t consider kaioken usable too, at least not until he fought Hit. But in a different circumstance, I agree that kaioken should be enough as well, considering how much stronger Goku got.

Goku would only need to double his battle power to match Freeza’s full power, because he had 60M with 20-fold kaioken and Freeza had 120M. Half of his power in the Cell Games was already much greater than 150M. So, SS Goku’s battle power is far beyond 300M, which means his base is far beyond 6M and his 20-fold kaioken would then be far beyond 120M.

So, it’s a safe assumption that he would beat Freeza with kaioken by the time he meets Beerus.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue May 21, 2019 2:45 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:31 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 6:43 pm
p-hyvo wrote:No, there's nothing that can make coherent the relationship between power levels and destructive power.
Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, I ain’t talking only about destructive power, but about everything else: strength, speed, etc.
That's not coherent too, toriyama isn't great in keeping that aspect coherent. He never had a pattern for that, he always went randomly
If that's true, how can you tell how powerful anyone is? Because by this logic what I said before (Goku and Vegeta = 6.000.000) could be true.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by TobyS » Tue May 28, 2019 12:30 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 2:37 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 12:43 pm
[Kaioken] A technique Beerus knew nothing about.
That’s why it wasn’t a factor when Beerus compared Goku with Freeza. Apparently, Goku doesn’t consider kaioken usable too, at least not until he fought Hit. But in a different circumstance, I agree that kaioken should be enough as well, considering how much stronger Goku got.

Goku would only need to double his battle power to match Freeza’s full power, because he had 60M with 20-fold kaioken and Freeza had 120M. Half of his power in the Cell Games was already much greater than 150M. So, SS Goku’s battle power is far beyond 300M, which means his base is far beyond 6M and his 20-fold kaioken would then be far beyond 120M.

So, it’s a safe assumption that he would beat Freeza with kaioken by the time he meets Beerus.
Yeah good workings there, I never thought this was in doubt, he was using KKx20 to even hurt freeza so there's a a tonne of room to grow without surpassing Freeza.

Beerus has no reason to know about KK and no reason to assume goku knows it.

Beerus sleeps a lot and we only know for a fact he met north kaio once.
Kaio himself could not master kaioken. And even if he knew Goku was kaios student he has no reason to assume this weaker than freeza guy had Learnt it where a god failed.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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