The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 1:33 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:13 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:58 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 6:58 pm
Everyone except me :lol:



1 - He never said it, at least not in the manga.
2 - Vegeta's base form at that time was stronger than before (his fight with 18), but we don't know how much and you are just making suppositions.
We know how much cell was stronger than 18 more or less, and anyway even lowballing semi perfect cell was at least x2,1 c18, so we have a vague idea of how much vegeta powered up.

And yeah, trunks said that. Not directly, but he was surprised of vegeta going grade 2 immediately, meaning indirectly that for trunks vegeta could beat cell even without it
Nah, if this logic is true then Trunks himself wouldn't need to use Grade 2, but he used this form against Cell. In addition, Vegeta would have said something like "I don't even need to use this form to beat you".

Also, the logic behind power levels isn't necessarily as simple as "if X is 2 times stronger than Y then his power level is also 2 times stronger".
Normal Ssj wasn't enough to kill cell easily, and they needed to do it. That's way they both went grade 2.
And yes, that logic is the one of power levels. To beat someone 2 times stronger than someone that had beaten you, you need to become more than 2 times stronger
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 1:37 pm

I mean, what you said is like saying " you don't need 2x3 to make 6, 2x2,5 makes 6 too"
No, it doesn't work like that. Mathematics doesn't works like that. If I'm x2 stronger than you, if you are 5 I'm 10, not 7 or 8.
Stop with that nonsensical headcanon and accepted reality
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 14, 2019 1:55 pm

I don’t see how the strength of Super Saiyans in the Cell Arc could help to demonstrate how much powerful their regular states have become since they fought Freeza. We can only assume Goku more than doubled his powerlevel, because he told Korin his powerlevel was about half of his full power and even with that he stupefied Vegeta, who has greatly powered-up since they fought the other androids.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 1:59 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:55 pm
I don’t see how the strength of Super Saiyans in the Cell Arc could help to demonstrate how much powerful their regular states have become since they fought Freeza. We can only assume Goku more than doubled his powerlevel, because he told Korin his powerlevel was about half of his full power and even with that he stupefied Vegeta, who has greatly powered-up since they fought the other androids.
Boy, ssj is a multiplier. If vegeta got more than 2 times stronger as a ssj, that means his base got more than 2 times stronger too
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue May 14, 2019 2:05 pm

p-hyvo wrote:Normal Ssj wasn't enough to kill cell easily, and they needed to do it. That's way they both went grade 2.
Cell wasn't scared or even impressed with Vegeta in his SS form, so we don't know that.
p-hyvo wrote:And yes, that logic is the one of power levels. To beat someone 2 times stronger than someone that had beaten you, you need to become more than 2 times stronger
Exactly, but like I said this isn't necessarily related with numbers. I'll give you two examples:

1 - Goku in the beggining of manga had 10, and a human like the farmer have 5. So Goku was 2 times stronger than a normal human in terms of power level, but by feats he was even stronger than that.

2 - King Piccolo had 260 in his fight against Goku, and he can nuke a city. His "son" had 408 at the beggining of DBZ and he destroyed the moon. By logic this would be impossible.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 2:14 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:05 pm
p-hyvo wrote:Normal Ssj wasn't enough to kill cell easily, and they needed to do it. That's way they both went grade 2.
Cell wasn't scared or even impressed with Vegeta in his SS form, so we don't know that.
p-hyvo wrote:And yes, that logic is the one of power levels. To beat someone 2 times stronger than someone that had beaten you, you need to become more than 2 times stronger
Exactly, but like I said this isn't necessarily related with numbers. I'll give you two examples:

1 - Goku in the beggining of manga had 10, and a human like the farmer have 5. So Goku was 2 times stronger than a normal human in terms of power level, but by feats he was even stronger than that.

2 - King Piccolo had 260 in his fight against Goku, and he can nuke a city. His "son" had 408 at the beggining of DBZ and he destroyed the moon. By logic this would be impossible.
And that's because of the fact destructive power isn't proportional to power level. Destructive power grows exponentially, not proportionally to power levels.

There isn't a set scheme of things for that. toriyama is a countryman , not a scientist. He just didn't cure that aspect well, or at least he went to don't have it to be proportional.

Said so, if feats aren't involved, power levels are numbers, so they are subjected to mathematics rules.
If I'm 1 and you are 2 times stronger than Me , then you are 2.not more and not less.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by SSJgogeto » Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 pm

Actually I'm almost sure that we can use arithmetic progression to make this work.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 2:26 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 2:19 pm
Actually I'm almost sure that we can use arithmetic progression to make this work.
No, there's nothing that can make coherent the relationship between power levels and destructive power. Toriyama didn't write it to be like that, he went randomly. Initially he never thought about using power levels.
But, if you want to go with proportions....is said that 10'000 is the power level needed to destroy a planet.
To destroy the sun you need like 1'300'000 times more energy, so, going by that, to be star level you would need a pl of 13'000'000'000 to be steal level Kek
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:55 pm
I don’t see how the strength of Super Saiyans in the Cell Arc could help to demonstrate how much powerful their regular states have become since they fought Freeza. We can only assume Goku more than doubled his powerlevel, because he told Korin his powerlevel was about half of his full power and even with that he stupefied Vegeta, who has greatly powered-up since they fought the other androids.
Boy, ssj is a multiplier. If vegeta got more than 2 times stronger as a ssj, that means his base got more than 2 times stronger too
I’m over 6 years older than you, kid. :lol:

Btw, when exactly did I say something different from that? I said Goku more than doubled his power, perhaps tripled or quadrupled his power since he fought Freeza. If you are familiar with Freeza’s powerlevel in Namek, in order for Goku to surpass him without resorting to transformations, he should have become more than 40 times stronger by the time Beerus meet him.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Tue May 14, 2019 3:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:08 pm
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:59 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:55 pm
I don’t see how the strength of Super Saiyans in the Cell Arc could help to demonstrate how much powerful their regular states have become since they fought Freeza. We can only assume Goku more than doubled his powerlevel, because he told Korin his powerlevel was about half of his full power and even with that he stupefied Vegeta, who has greatly powered-up since they fought the other androids.
Boy, ssj is a multiplier. If vegeta got more than 2 times stronger as a ssj, that means his base got more than 2 times stronger too
I’m over 6 years older than you, kid. :lol:

Btw, when exactly did I say something different from that? I said Goku more than doubled his power, perhaps tripled or quadrupled his power since he fought Freeza. If you are familiar with Freeza’s powerlevel in Namek, in order for Goku to surpass him without resorting to transformations, he should have become more than 40 times stronger by the time Beerus meet him.
I wasn't speaking of how much they got stronger since freezer, I was just explaining how they could not be just 6'000'000 by the but saga.
I didn't involve power levels directly to explain, just scaling.
If vegeta got more or less 2,5 times stronger in Android saga, he just can't be just 6 millions in buu saga, because we know he was already over 2 millions on namecc by logic and scaling

Btw I read quickly while distracted your message, so it is for that if I ha given a non pertinent answer or misunderstood it
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 15, 2019 1:44 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 am
Ssj g4 =Ssj g1 , since base vegeta < base Goku and ssj vegeta (cell games) was stronger than ssj Gohan ( suppressed) and ssj Goku (50%) (in fact, vegeta knows only half of goku's power at that point, and he was sure he was the only one that could defeat cell possibly). Gohan was believed from everyone to be weaker than Goku at that that point. If ssj g4>> ssj that wouldn't be the case, it couldn't be so.

They had trained, their base had powered up a lot. Multipliers doesn't change, ssj is always ssj
Again, we don't know that. You're just repeating how you think Saiyan power works and presume that it is fact.
Base Saiyans being different in strength is not always a conclusive determination in how strong their SSJ forms will be from one another. Goten managed to fight roughly on par with Gohan in SSJ despite the fact that their bases are different and Trunks as a SSJ managed to tag his father despite Vegeta being the most powerful SSJ of the Z Senshi on Earth at the time.
The example with Cell Games Vegeta's SSJ compared to Goku's FPSSJ is not entirely accurate, Vegeta had a whole other year to improve his SSJ which is likely why he stopped using SSJG2 and relied on a form more akin to FPSSJ.
Akira Toriyama & Toei did not have a static multiplier in mind whenever they drew/animated any of the SSJ transformations, that's something that only came about when the Super Exciting Guide(2009) gave "official" multipliers for the forms. However, neither Toriyama or Toei have actually incorporated said multipliers to the forms.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 am

theherodjl wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:44 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 4:15 am
Ssj g4 =Ssj g1 , since base vegeta < base Goku and ssj vegeta (cell games) was stronger than ssj Gohan ( suppressed) and ssj Goku (50%) (in fact, vegeta knows only half of goku's power at that point, and he was sure he was the only one that could defeat cell possibly). Gohan was believed from everyone to be weaker than Goku at that that point. If ssj g4>> ssj that wouldn't be the case, it couldn't be so.

They had trained, their base had powered up a lot. Multipliers doesn't change, ssj is always ssj

Base Saiyans being different in strength is not always a conclusive determination in how strong their SSJ forms will be from one another.
Sorry what?
Again, Ssj is a multiplier. If you are stronger as a ssj, you are stronger in base too. The 2 things are heavily correlated

The fact that not even toriyama nor too knows perfectly how big the ssj boost is doesn't change nothing.. base power and ssj power are correlated, it could be x4,x10 or x50 but the fact doesn't change. Base power is proportional to ssj power
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 15, 2019 2:17 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 am
Sorry what?
Again, Ssj is a multiplier. If you are stronger as a ssj, you are stronger in base too. The 2 things are heavily correlated

The fact that not even toriyama nor too knows perfectly how big the ssj boost is doesn't change nothing.. base power and ssj power are correlated, it could be x4,x10 or x50 but the fact doesn't change. Base power is proportional to ssj power
Again, no it is not. SSJ has always risen as a form & boosted a Saiyan to whatever level they require. At no point did SSJ become the same exact power increase for every Saiyan. Note how SSJ Broly is stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta?
Toriyama & Toei don't agree. The fact remains that they didn't/still haven't actually clarified the rules regarding the boost of SSJ. Its not something they can just slap a number on anyways since they're always having Goku & other Saiyans break boundaries with being "super".
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 15, 2019 3:08 am

theherodjl wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 2:17 am
p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 1:55 am
Sorry what?
Again, Ssj is a multiplier. If you are stronger as a ssj, you are stronger in base too. The 2 things are heavily correlated

The fact that not even toriyama nor too knows perfectly how big the ssj boost is doesn't change nothing.. base power and ssj power are correlated, it could be x4,x10 or x50 but the fact doesn't change. Base power is proportional to ssj power
Again, no it is not. SSJ has always risen as a form & boosted a Saiyan to whatever level they require. At no point did SSJ become the same exact power increase for every Saiyan. Note how SSJ Broly is stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta?
Toriyama & Toei don't agree. The fact remains that they didn't/still haven't actually clarified the rules regarding the boost of SSJ. Its not something they can just slap a number on anyways since they're always having Goku & other Saiyans break boundaries with being "super".
Again, for broly it is always a matter of base power.
Base Broly was shown holding is own against 2 ssbs, so obviously his ssj Wil be stronger than goku's ssb.
Ssj is a multiplier, not a tier. Daizenshuu states that, and the series itself always treated ssj like that.
Stop with headcsnons you too
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by theherodjl » Wed May 15, 2019 4:55 am

p-hyvo wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 3:08 am
Again, for broly it is always a matter of base power.
Base Broly was shown holding is own against 2 ssbs, so obviously his ssj Wil be stronger than goku's ssb.
Ssj is a multiplier, not a tier. Daizenshuu states that, and the series itself always treated ssj like that.
Stop with headcsnons you too
The mere fact that Base Broly was getting his ass whooped by Base Vegeta and then became stronger than SSJG Vegeta by becoming enraged and adding Oozaru power to it shows that even base power doesn't have established rules so your explanation does not work.
SSJ is not a multiplier, why do I need to keep restating this??? There has only been a single example, not all or most or some or even two examples, of SSJ being a 50-fold increase and that was purely to calculate Goku's power level against Freeza. It may not have even been a whole number since the Daiz was just giving figures for power levels that were rounded to the nearest whole numbers for the sake of clarity. It doesn't matter anyways since Akira Toriyama & Toei stopped making big power levels as soon as Freeza announced that his second form was "over a million" so Goku being at 3,000,000 in base and 150,000,000 as a SSJ was not their idea.
Treating the form as a multiplier is not the same as being a multiplier. There's room to establish a difference in strength by whatever amount they want since it isn't strictly set in stone.
Headcannon is what fans have theorized upon and come to a general consensus on what the "rules" of DB are supposed to be if they haven't been confirmed by the writers but SSJ never had any rule besides making Saiyans stronger. Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Goten, and any other Saiyan have never stated that they increase their strength by 50-fold or implied that the number was anywhere close to or above 50-fold. Goku never has either despite he being the one who is believed by many fans to have received a 50-fold increase. The only reason I see why multipliers even exist among fandom is to configure & calculate power levels which has absolutely no bearing on the story since the author & team have long since abandoned the concept.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 15, 2019 7:23 am

Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume repeats Daizenshuu 7′s statement about regular Super Saiyan increasing the battle power by a factor of 50.

Also, in the manga, when Gohan was trying to convince Vegeta and the others to not use Super Saiyan in the 25th World Martial Arts Tournament, Vegeta implied Super Saiyan increases battle power by the same factor to any of them. So, even if you don’t agree with the factor of 50, there is a multiplier for Super Saiyan.

Not taking parts on either side, anyone is entitled to use/not use it.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 15, 2019 9:26 am

Or it could just impliy it's the same multiplier for those characters in a specific moment of the story.

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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 15, 2019 9:28 am

ahill1 wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 9:26 am
Or it could just impliy it's the same multiplier for those characters in a specific moment of the story.

[mention]Hugo Boss[/mention]
That doesn't change what he's saying. The fact is that it is a multiplier anyway
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by TobyS » Wed May 15, 2019 10:40 am

Yeah it's clearly a multiplier, Broly is just tapping into wells of power and regardless he's a special case as “the legendary super saiyan” like Kale, maybe they don't have a multiplier or it's a different one.

Regardless Scaling in broly was bad as it was all toei filling in the small outline.

Base goku fought someone as vegeta fought.... Base Gogeta was too powerful related to Blue Goku (in relation to the scaling in BoG) etc etc.

Goku would have to get over 40x stronger in base than his Namek self.

He could have doubled his base by mecha freeza, and in the Android Saga, again in HTC. And again in buu and this would make a huge difference in his resultant super saiyan form while still keeping his base below freeza there is no contradiction.

Why people want to push the base up and the as multiplier down I don't get.... There is no reason to.
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
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Re: The base Saiyajins in the Boo saga

Post by p-hyvo » Wed May 15, 2019 12:31 pm

TobyS wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 10:40 am
Yeah it's clearly a multiplier, Broly is just tapping into wells of power and regardless he's a special case as “the legendary super saiyan” like Kale, maybe they don't have a multiplier or it's a different one.

Regardless Scaling in broly was bad as it was all toei filling in the small outline.

Base goku fought someone as vegeta fought.... Base Gogeta was too powerful related to Blue Goku (in relation to the scaling in BoG) etc etc.

Goku would have to get over 40x stronger in base than his Namek self.

He could have doubled his base by mecha freeza, and in the Android Saga, again in HTC. And again in buu and this would make a huge difference in his resultant super saiyan form while still keeping his base below freeza there is no contradiction.

Why people want to push the base up and the as multiplier down I don't get.... There is no reason to.
Realistically, both in rosat and between cell and buu saga goku's base power had more than doubled, but I got you were symbolic in that statement
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