Could the Z fighters become as strong as they are now without meeting Beerus and Whis?

[Berserker1921]

Let’s say Zeno, Beerus, Whis, Broly and etc never existed. Could the Z-warriors (Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan) ever reach they’re current levels of power? And if not, how strong do you think they would become?

[Desassina]

It depends on whether we're talking about the manga prior to its new ending (the one with Vegeta promising to take on Goku once more after he leaves the tournament with Oob) or with the latter included. I always felt that Vegeta accepted his place and decided to fight for sport in a similar realm to Goku, in tournaments without transforming and without risking his life, so I guess that he could still be the second in line with his regular form. With transformation, however, any Super Saiyan 3 would be higher than him, with Goku as the strongest, and Gohan as the second in line with Ultimate. Goku could probably get higher with the Old Kaioshin's ritual, but it's not his style, I guess.

[p-hyvo]

Let’s say Zeno, Beerus, Whis, Broly and etc never existed. Could the Z-warriors (Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan) ever reach they’re current levels of power? And if not, how strong do you think they would become?

If we count gt, they definitely could and did. Without gt, base Goku (eoz) was kid buu tier going by daizenshuu, that puts enraged uub = kid buu.
Base Goku >=enraged uub=kid buu>=vegeta>fat buu>good buu
From there, without gt we can't know how strong Goku could become

[Questrider]

I'm going to say NEVER.
Because without these two, they never would have tapped into that God power, much less knew how.
It's hard to know where Goku and Vegeta would have gone power wise. For all we know, some type SSJ4 form. Not the one we see in GT but something else.

As for Gohan being stronger than Vegeta? That would last like a month because Gohan never trains. Vegeta would catch up.

[theherodjl]

If DBS's narrative on training applies, giving gigantic increases to just anyone who happens to train seriously, then sure. After training for several years, Future Trunks went from being weaker than a Cell Jr to being strong enough to challenge Post-U6 Tournament SSJ3 Goku. That's even greater than what GT Goku achieved so anything is possible.

[miguelnuva1]

I'm going to say that Shadow Dragon saga power levels are the limit of mortal saiyan power. Ultra Full power Saiyan 4 is the max. Future Trunks got as strong as he did because of Beerus and the others and was leveled up to match this.

[theherodjl]

I'm going to say that Shadow Dragon saga power levels are the limit of mortal saiyan power. Ultra Full power Saiyan 4 is the max. Future Trunks got as strong as he did because of Beerus and the others and was leveled up to match this.

Just because characters are mortal does not mean that they are forever trapped in a lower tier of power. Jiren is 100% mortal, known for having rejected divine status, and he's stronger than his own universe's Hakaishin.

[Berserker1921]

I'm going to say that Shadow Dragon saga power levels are the limit of mortal saiyan power. Ultra Full power Saiyan 4 is the max. Future Trunks got as strong as he did because of Beerus and the others and was leveled up to match this.

Just because characters are mortal does not mean that they are forever trapped in a lower tier of power. Jiren is 100% mortal, known for having rejected divine status, and he's stronger than his own universe's Hakaishin.

Yeah, but would Jiren have achieved that power, if the gods never existed? I mean, could he achieve that kind of power if he never knew it existed?

[miguelnuva1]

I'm going to say that Shadow Dragon saga power levels are the limit of mortal saiyan power. Ultra Full power Saiyan 4 is the max. Future Trunks got as strong as he did because of Beerus and the others and was leveled up to match this.

Just because characters are mortal does not mean that they are forever trapped in a lower tier of power. Jiren is 100% mortal, known for having rejected divine status, and he's stronger than his own universe's Hakaishin.

What does Jiren have to do with saiyan limits anyway.

[Lionel]

Without the understanding of those realms being imprinted by experiences with said Hakaishin and his angelic attendant, I'm not so sure. Goku and Vegeta could probably continue to improve from where they left off at the beginning of BoG but how far can they they go? I guess reaching Buu arc Vegetto's level individually would be their new plateau. Unless they start meeting new people across the multiverse like Hit and Jiren, it's going to get awfully lonely at the top with only each other and occasionally Gohan to work with.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

They eventually did become as strong as their Super counterparts during GT. It just took them longer to reach the same realm of strength.

[Koitsukai]

Without re-growing their tails I don't even see them getting close to GT, but maybe if they were to learn to harness the ohzaru power in their base form and blend it with SS, they could reach their current power level. Broly went from SS2 tier to God and then Blue tier with his ikari form, even if it isn't as powerful for Goku and Vegeta, they should at least reach early SSGod level. As long as it isn't a Broly only transformation, of course.

[sunsetshimmer]

Let’s say Zeno, Beerus, Whis, Broly and etc never existed. Could the Z-warriors (Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan) ever reach they’re current levels of power? And if not, how strong do you think they would become?

Yes, it's called Dragon Ball GT

But seriously to not just start another GT vs Super war, yes, they can, especially Gohan who well....already had this power in Buu saga. Maybe only improved it a bit. And even if he was way stronger than in Buu saga i don't see any connection to characters you mentioned. He achieved it by training with Piccolo.

Goku and Vegeta? Why not. Super proved like 10000 times after BoG saga that god ki means literally nothing and everyone can achieve comparable if not higher power, if they train for years, or months, like Frieza. Not to mention Broly who never fought before and stomped them. God ki after BoG is just excuse to unlock new forms and to be faithful to plot regarding gods. Saiyans are one of the most talented beings in existence and even U6 girls proved that they do not need god ki to rival Goku. Trunks also didn't have god ki and his power out of nowhere was not so far from SSJB in his SSJ Rage form. The only thing they need to do is to train their actual power (learn from Gohan) and not rely on unlocking new forms and adding boosts like Kaioken. They do not have that high power, just very strong transformations.

There is a cool fanmade video of DBS Goku fighting GT Goku that seems to have very positive feedback from fandom as it contains good explanation of how GT Goku could rival DBS Goku even with form that is assumed to be weaker and having no god ki (like having it had any meaning after BoG saga):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMPBH9FVbVQ

The only small exception from what i said might be Ultra Instinct. I don't think Goku could achieve this kind of 'power' without meeting Beerus and Whis. But once again, it's just a temporary state that Goku still didn't master. Not to mention UI was supposed to be just a technique that lets you fight without using your brain but ended up being another power boost.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Frieza likely would have regardless. He achieved Golden without ever knowing that Goku and Vegeta achieved god forms.

[Tai Lung]

Super and GT have different logic ... and also with z

goku in base did not become stronger than frieza even though he trained for more than 10 years ...
the same with vegeta

[miguelnuva1]

Frieza likely would have regardless. He achieved Golden without ever knowing that Goku and Vegeta achieved god forms.

He knew Goku survived a fight with Buu and Beerus.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Frieza likely would have regardless. He achieved Golden without ever knowing that Goku and Vegeta achieved god forms.

He knew Goku survived a fight with Buu and Beerus.

Buu, yes. I don't think he found out about Goku fighting Beerus until later iirc.

[SSJgogeto]

Gohan - yes
Goku and Vegeta - no

[miguelnuva1]

Frieza likely would have regardless. He achieved Golden without ever knowing that Goku and Vegeta achieved god forms.

He knew Goku survived a fight with Buu and Beerus.

Buu, yes. I don't think he found out about Goku fighting Beerus until later iirc.

Sobert says Goku fought Beerus and Buu.

[Piccolo_Daima]

Let’s say Zeno, Beerus, Whis, Broly and etc never existed. Could the Z-warriors (Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan) ever reach they’re current levels of power? And if not, how strong do you think they would become?

Gohan's power increase in Super had nothing to do with Beeros and Whis, he increased his powers training with Piccolo before the ToP.

As for Goku and Vegeta, probably yes, I don't know how but surely they would have found a way to increase their powers to a similar level they achieved in Super