Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

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Miracles
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:42 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:42 pm
To sum up your theory: Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan [Mystic] because you assume Goku meant Vegeta brought back Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. Including a Genki Dama struggling to kill Kid Buu even with Gohans and everyone else Genki to their limits?

Your entire post is conjecture. Goku didn't say Gohan and Gotenks will fight Buu at the same time. Vegeta stating the Genki Dama absorbing Ki to their limits were concerning the normal humans on earth only. Nothing about Gohan or Gotenks being pushed to the brim.
No. You are making up conjectures because that's not my only point. Also, Goku told Piccolo-Boo that "Even Gohan can beat you" yet with Pure Boo he wanted Gotenks and Gohan to help them as in 4 vs 1. But Gohan solos, right? Also you are twisting facts, clear Facts. Goku outright says "This is Gohan and other's Ki" (Gohan Tachi no Ki). The word he used is "" (Ki) not "元気" (Genki). When Old Kaioshin talked about Genki Dama still lacking in power, Dende says "We used up all of our Ki". The reason Kibito-Kaioshin can't even stand up or perform basic Teleport technique was because he drained Ki.

Gen means original or current and Ki means Ki. So its either way original Ki or current Ki. The meaning is same. Vegeta asked to give all of their power. Then he was receiving Ki from them. The humans don't even say "oh my Genki is getting drained" but they say that their power is getting drained resulting in them breathing heavily.

Not just that, After Gohan gave his Ki, not Genki, but Ki. Goku told how it was big from get go but not enough to wipe out Boo. That incomplete Genki Dama had all of Gohan's power yet it wasn't enough to wipe out Boo but Gohan stomped Super Boo so if Kid Boo was weaker than him, Goku would have already fired it. Unless you think Gohan can make an attack on Level of Super Genki Dama alone or hold it like Pure Boo.


Your whole assumption is conjecture. If Super Boo got weaker after Removal of Absorptions, then why didn't they say it? You are the one assuming things when they never refuted the point about his power increasing earlier on when he was reverting to Buff Boo. I love how you totally gloss over Kibito-Kaioshin outright stating Absorption of Kaioshins weakened him and saying how he just now lost the heart which lowered his power in reply to question of "Most Difficult Boo". Also, If Gohan can BEAT Piccolo-Boo, then why would Goku want help from Gohan AND Gotenks to help them in FIGHTING Boo ? That says a lot of Confidence, there's a clear distinction made by Goku but it's pointless. You will only believe what you wanna believe no matter what manga, anime, games, interviews, guides, Covers, DVD booklets say.

So Genki Dama is only taking full power from earthlings, Gohan, Goten and Trunks are also Earthlings but they don't give all of their Ki? Goku isn't calling out Gohan to give his Full Ki but others yet saying Universe will be doomed if Genki Dama doesn't work. So Goku is desperate for Power and even telling Humans that failing it will result in them getting killed and Universe going Poof but doesn't take as much power as he wants from Gohan of all people.

Yes sir, I am making up headcanons. Your theory is more canon than Manga itself.

If Toriyama would want to power down Super Boo, he would totally imply his Ki is increasing after Kaioshins were removed then never refute the power increasing and make characters only see the Size to laugh off. Then Make "On-par with Pure Boo Goku" to stand there and see his earth getting blown after adnitging both him and Vegeta can't stop Kid Boo's blast. Then on Kaioshin realm wanting to sacrifice universe and let Kid Boo destroy planets so that Kid Boo can't come there and Goku and Vegeta can make their plan. Yes, they both would totally need a STRATEGY to beat a powered down Boo. Old Kaioshin would say "since this boo has weakened you both should also fuse" makes so much sense and old Kaioshin would totally call out goku for not fusing to beat the Boo which supposedly powered down to the point SSJ3 Goku can beat him. Also, Goku himseld admitted that potara was better and he should have used them and not try to take Boo on alone but he did due to Saiyan pride. Vegeta who thought he can kill Kid Boo and did Jan-Ken said he will be killed in an instant if he fought boo and he was stronger than he earlier thought. Goku would totally ditch Direct solution over Risky one and say that Genki Dama not working would doom the Universe. Goku would totally call Satan saviour over his son who can alone stomp Boo. He also said that without Satan and Fat Boo's help, THEY and EVERYONE ELSE would have been KILLED. When Vegeta asked for Solutions to Counter Kid Boo's potential Return, he said They will train to not lose in one-on-one. Goku would totally be excited to fight a far weaker opponent than one who lives with him despite The opponent not being experienced in fighting and having no tricks like absorptions.

Toriyama never makes smallest looking characters the Strongest like Final form Freeza, Arale, Zeno, etc. Aren't strongest or anything.

You are totally right. But you still haven't provided me proof of Kid Boo's ki going down from Buff Boo. Even though they keep mentioning slightest change in Ki, suddenly they are only mocking size, but size means power right?
See, you are still assuming that Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. This destroys your whole argument cause Goku never stated such. Also Vegeta didn't state Gohan and Gotenks ki power would be drawn out to their limits. The Genki only takes little by little Ki from everyone.
Last edited by Miracles on Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Desassina » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:50 pm

Huh, the only condition is that Gohan and Gotenks have to be brought back so that either one or the other and the two of them can fight, when bringing only of one them meant that all of these options wouldn't be possible. They can fight single handedly or together for what it's worth. They simply don't have the Ki to wipe Pure Boo out. Not when the genki of all the humans and beings in the universe had to be added. The Genki-dama is Goku's attack. It's not Gohan's Ki that is dodging or delivering punches. I mean, 17 has infinite Ki, but he fights at a certain known level.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:08 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:13 am
In his dreams, he's stronger. Goku wanted none of Super Boo but all of Pure Boo to himself.
He wanted so much of Pure Boo that he was trying to avoid him and willing to sacrifice the planets so that he can come up with the strategy to beat him. You totally need strategy to beat someone who you can fight alone, right? Even Elder Kaioshin who was the one to give him potara to fight Bootenks after seeing how ssj3 wasn't a match for Bootenks called him out for being selfish and Goku himself admitted that he was sorry for being selfish at a critical time but Boo wasn't merged too so he should be by himself. This is due to Vegeta not once but twice telling Goku how he prefers death over merging with Goku ever again which is why he had to break Potara inside Boo's body.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5
Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara, but he refuses it
Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But [Boo] ain’t merged anymore either…“
Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!”
Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.”
Kaioshins: “…!”
Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…”
Miracles wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:42 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:26 am
Miracles wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:42 pm
To sum up your theory: Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan [Mystic] because you assume Goku meant Vegeta brought back Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. Including a Genki Dama struggling to kill Kid Buu even with Gohans and everyone else Genki to their limits?

Your entire post is conjecture. Goku didn't say Gohan and Gotenks will fight Buu at the same time. Vegeta stating the Genki Dama absorbing Ki to their limits were concerning the normal humans on earth only. Nothing about Gohan or Gotenks being pushed to the brim.
Snip
See, you are still assuming that Goku wanted Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. This destroys your whole argument cause Goku never stated such. Also Vegeta didn't state Gohan and Gotenks ki power would be drawn out to their limits. The Genki only takes little by little Ki from everyone.
Dude, because there's a clear distinctin between needing one and needing both.
Goku : “Oh, I know! You’ll bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life so they can fight.”
and =/= or
they =/= one
to fight =/= to defeat
The way it's worded highly implies both are required to manage something against Boo. Also notice the verb here, it's Fight not beat.

Now compare it to Goku's Line to Piccolo-Boo:
Goku: “Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
You are just on purpose making up theories, yea Gohan can kill him but Gotenks is needed unnecessarily? To get absorbed? or to fuck around for 5 minutes Time limit?. Hell, if Gohan was stronger Goku wouldn't even bother asking or guessing Vegeta's plan, he would have wished them right away.

Also this is 3rd time you ignored the line where Vegeta said that next time Kid Boo comes it will end of the World. Even during Genki Dama he said that Kid Boo will kill all of them, Goku said Universe will get doomed if Genki Dama doesn't work and When Vegeta asked Goku for solutions to counter Kid Boo's Return, if Gohan was enough, he would have said that but no, first he made it clear that Without Satan and Good Boo's help they and everyone else would have been killed. Everyone = Every being in Universe which includes Gohan. Then says they will fight him if they have to and need to train to not lose to him even in One-on-One.
Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P4.6
Context: as Satan wants them to spare good Boo
Vegeta: “…Don’t you get it!? What do you intend to do if he gives birth to that terrible Boo again!? This time for sure it might really mean the end of the world! It’s best to kill him now. Got that, you idiot?!”


Chapter: 517 (DBZ 323), P5.4-5
Context: after Goku tells Dende to heal good Boo
Goku: “Well, it’s alright, ain’t it Vegeta? This Boo and Mister Satan both did well. If these two hadn’t been here, then we and everyone else would have been done in. Right?…And if worse comes to worse, we can just fight again. Let’s train so that this time for sure we won’t lose even if we go one-on-one.”
Again back with that tired argument? the ordinary Genki Dama took little ki from surroundings but the one in Boo arc took ki right to their limits, that's the point of discussion and why Goku agreed :
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P8.3-4
Context: after Vegeta tells Goku to make a Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey! So it was the Genki-Dama you were thinking of!? It-it’s no use! Against Boo, no matter how much we gathered little bits of genki from all the Earthlings…”
Vegeta: “I told you, right? That those guys on Earth should take responsibility every now and then…! It won’t be just little bit. We’ll gather ki from them right up to their limits!”

Gohan, Goten and Trunks are earthlings and you think they won't give their all and Goku wouldn't ask them to not hold back? What kind of analogy is that? Even though he desperately needed as much power as possible.

Genki is Ki. Ki is Power. Power is Genki.
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P11.3
Context: Vegeta instructs the Earthlings on how to help make the Genki-Dama
Vegeta: “Raise your hands to the sky! We’ll gather your power to defeat Boo!
He makes it clear, they are taking their powers and that includes Gohan and Z fighters too Thats why it got huge from the start when Z warriors gave their Power. Also, he received Ki not Genki energy or some health Bullshit.
Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P13.3-4
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Oh! It’s here, it’s here! It’s already huge! This is Gohan and the others’ ki!”
Vegeta: “…Bu-but it’s not complete yet…Wh-why…?!”
More proof? When that dude in snowy country gave his Ki he says :
(heavy breathing).......I can't believe it....he took my power....(heavy breathing)
Are you satisfied or need more? It took everyone's full power to defeat him and you will need to give me a valid proof that Gohan turned full sadist and while his friends and humans were giving all their power to the point they couldn't stand up, he was not giving his all. No wait, I know you will find some headcanon I am sure.

Also, Kid Boo is factually Stronger than Super Boo base form.
When Vegeta removed Good Boo from inside, the Kaioshin influence went away leaving him with no other power soirce but his own and it resulted in his Ki increasing. Kaioshins were no longer connected at all so you can't assume some Kai was giving his power. He only had his own unrestricted power to draw and it is further confirmed by Kibito-Kaioshin :
The heart(conscience) that he obtained by reducing his power by absorption has returned to its original state. An evil incarnate without self control
Super Boo had conscience too and little bit of Good due to Dai Kaioshin influence via Good Boo. Kid Boo is at his strongest when not deluded by Kaioshin and without any Gods in him, he's strongest. If he lost power through absorptions and Vegeta took out those absorptions and it resulted in his Ki rising then it obviously means he Powered up.
Desassina wrote: Huh, the only condition is that Gohan and Gotenks have to be brought back so that either one or the other and the two of them can fight, when bringing only of one them meant that all of these options wouldn't be possible. They can fight single handedly or together for what it's worth. They simply don't have the Ki to wipe Pure Boo out. Not when the genki of all the humans and beings in the universe had to be added. The Genki-dama is Goku's attack. It's not Gohan's Ki that is dodging or delivering punches. I mean, 17 has infinite Ki, but he fights at a certain known level.
But it is gathering Power into a ball. It's Goku's attack which gathers combined powers to make an ultra attack. Meele is useless with Kid Boo, as Goku said nothing happened to his body unlike other Boo's. When anyone in general gives all of their Power.

Also Android 17 doesn't have infinite Ki lol. If he had he would have been zeno level :lol:

He has artificial energy to keep him from draining but power is obviously limited otherwise if he had unlimited Ki Power, he would have been strongest person.

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P12.5-6
Context: after the androids blow up Yajirobe’s car
Goku: “Wh-what’s going on…?! I-I couldn’t sense any ki at all…”
Gohan: “It-it’s because they’re androids…Th-they don’t have any ki…!”

Chapter: 349 (DBZ 155), P13.4
Context: while it looks like No.17 and No.18 are acting obedient
No.20: “Frankly I’d been worried. The majority of your functions were geared towards your infinite energy reactors and gigantic power, so I wasn’t able to properly control you, and you used to ignore my orders.”

Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P14.3
Context: after fighting merged Piccolo for a long time
No.17: “Heh. Even if our power is on par, it looks like a gap is starting to open up between our stamina…My energy is infinite, and never falls…”
They can only give Ki to a limit, as much powerful they are. Which means the donation of #17 will be SSJ grade 2 level.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm

We know Goku meant Gohan and Gotenks fighting in general. "They" is for general purposes not both at the same time. That's you adding that in there. Especially when we know Super Buu was stronger than Goku and Gohan is stronger than Super Buu.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 pm

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm
We know Goku meant Gohan and Gotenks fighting in general. "They" is for general purposes not both at the same time. That's you adding that in there. Especially when we know Super Buu was stronger than Goku and Gohan is stronger than Super Buu.
So why is Gohan not summoned instantly to kill Boo? Goku against Piccolo-Boo said Gohan can beat him alone yet why is he trying to wish both ?

Makes no sense when he thought Gotenks in ssj3 was enough to kill Super Boo and Gohan too but both are needed to help them. Are you sure you aren't the one adding things? The verb matters.

According to Goku, Gotenks can beat Super Boo on his own. Gohan can beat him on his own yet Gohan and Gotenks are needed to fight him.

Do you even see the clear verbs? Gohan CAN'T Beat Kid Boo and Gotenks CAN'T beat Kid Boo. They both were needed to help them as in 4 vs 1. This is one of the many evidences.

Everytime something was happening with Boo's body they talk about Ki.
When Gohan-Boo powered down to Base form they talk about Ki. When Vegeta removed Good Boo from inside they talk about how his Ki was rising, yet they never talk about his Ki ever coming down. Toriyama uses his classic trope of having strongest final form to be smaller in size and one person mock it and get excited. We know they never judged off size because when Elder Kaioshin called out Goku after he admitted being selfish at such a critical time, he calmed him down by saying Boo can't come to them and they will come up with a strategy to beat him while he's blowing up planets. It proved again that he wasn't confident at all and was trying to stay away from him and sacrifice the Universe to come up with a strategy to beat him. While fighting, Vegeta admits Boo's is stronger than he thought and he will get killed in an instant. Goku similarly says how with Potara he would have been a matter of one blast and he tried to show off taking him alone. It's clear as hell that they both earlier underestimated off height. Kibito-Kaioshin outright told how the heart he gained after reducing power absorption was back to its original form which means without any Kaioshin influence he is the strongest. The minds and nature of Kaioshins were damaging to him and it was made pretty clear when his power increases after Vegeta tore Good Boo. At that point, there was no one to feed off other than his own body. That increasing power was his and Kibito-Kaioshin confirmed it by telling how he lost power through absorption but reverting to original state.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm
We know Goku meant Gohan and Gotenks fighting in general. "They" is for general purposes not both at the same time. That's you adding that in there. Especially when we know Super Buu was stronger than Goku and Gohan is stronger than Super Buu.
So why is Gohan not summoned instantly to kill Boo? Goku against Piccolo-Boo said Gohan can beat him alone yet why is he trying to wish both ?

Makes no sense when he thought Gotenks in ssj3 was enough to kill Super Boo and Gohan too but both are needed to help them. Are you sure you aren't the one adding things? The verb matters.

According to Goku, Gotenks can beat Super Boo on his own. Gohan can beat him on his own yet Gohan and Gotenks are needed to fight him.

Do you even see the clear verbs? Gohan CAN'T Beat Kid Boo and Gotenks CAN'T beat Kid Boo. They both were needed to help them as in 4 vs 1. This is one of the many evidences.

Everytime something was happening with Boo's body they talk about Ki.
When Gohan-Boo powered down to Base form they talk about Ki. When Vegeta removed Good Boo from inside they talk about how his Ki was rising, yet they never talk about his Ki ever coming down. Toriyama uses his classic trope of having strongest final form to be smaller in size and one person mock it and get excited. We know they never judged off size because when Elder Kaioshin called out Goku after he admitted being selfish at such a critical time, he calmed him down by saying Boo can't come to them and they will come up with a strategy to beat him while he's blowing up planets. It proved again that he wasn't confident at all and was trying to stay away from him and sacrifice the Universe to come up with a strategy to beat him. While fighting, Vegeta admits Boo's is stronger than he thought and he will get killed in an instant. Goku similarly says how with Potara he would have been a matter of one blast and he tried to show off taking him alone. It's clear as hell that they both earlier underestimated off height. Kibito-Kaioshin outright told how the heart he gained after reducing power absorption was back to its original form which means without any Kaioshin influence he is the strongest. The minds and nature of Kaioshins were damaging to him and it was made pretty clear when his power increases after Vegeta tore Good Boo. At that point, there was no one to feed off other than his own body. That increasing power was his and Kibito-Kaioshin confirmed it by telling how he lost power through absorption but reverting to original state.
Because Vegeta stated that all of earth was going to take responsibility of saving itself this time. The story is clear.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 am

Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 pm
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:18 pm
We know Goku meant Gohan and Gotenks fighting in general. "They" is for general purposes not both at the same time. That's you adding that in there. Especially when we know Super Buu was stronger than Goku and Gohan is stronger than Super Buu.
So why is Gohan not summoned instantly to kill Boo? Goku against Piccolo-Boo said Gohan can beat him alone yet why is he trying to wish both ?

Makes no sense when he thought Gotenks in ssj3 was enough to kill Super Boo and Gohan too but both are needed to help them. Are you sure you aren't the one adding things? The verb matters.

According to Goku, Gotenks can beat Super Boo on his own. Gohan can beat him on his own yet Gohan and Gotenks are needed to fight him.

Do you even see the clear verbs? Gohan CAN'T Beat Kid Boo and Gotenks CAN'T beat Kid Boo. They both were needed to help them as in 4 vs 1. This is one of the many evidences.

Everytime something was happening with Boo's body they talk about Ki.
When Gohan-Boo powered down to Base form they talk about Ki. When Vegeta removed Good Boo from inside they talk about how his Ki was rising, yet they never talk about his Ki ever coming down. Toriyama uses his classic trope of having strongest final form to be smaller in size and one person mock it and get excited. We know they never judged off size because when Elder Kaioshin called out Goku after he admitted being selfish at such a critical time, he calmed him down by saying Boo can't come to them and they will come up with a strategy to beat him while he's blowing up planets. It proved again that he wasn't confident at all and was trying to stay away from him and sacrifice the Universe to come up with a strategy to beat him. While fighting, Vegeta admits Boo's is stronger than he thought and he will get killed in an instant. Goku similarly says how with Potara he would have been a matter of one blast and he tried to show off taking him alone. It's clear as hell that they both earlier underestimated off height. Kibito-Kaioshin outright told how the heart he gained after reducing power absorption was back to its original form which means without any Kaioshin influence he is the strongest. The minds and nature of Kaioshins were damaging to him and it was made pretty clear when his power increases after Vegeta tore Good Boo. At that point, there was no one to feed off other than his own body. That increasing power was his and Kibito-Kaioshin confirmed it by telling how he lost power through absorption but reverting to original state.
Because Vegeta stated that all of earth was going to take responsibility of saving itself this time. The story is clear.
That line is before Vegeta's and the verb here is they needed to fight whereas with Piccolo-Boo he said even Gohan can beat him alone. Potara were strictly recommended by Elder Kaioshin and when Goku refused he was called out. Then Goku himself regrets not using potara due to pride and getting ahead of himself. Again I ask you, why bring both to help them FIGHT if Gohan could've BEATEN him alone? Also, Genki Dama was better plan than Bringing Gohan and Gotenks because Goku thought Vegeta was talking about normal Genki Dama which takes little bit of energy from everyone but Vegeta asked to take as much power as possible and that's when Goku agreed because they needed as much power as possible from everyone and Gohan can't generate that big a blast.

it's confirmed that Super Genki Dama was their only option. Goku said without Satan and Fat boo, everyone else would have been done in. Meaning Gohan wasn't enough and after taking Gohan's Ki he said it wasn't enough to wipe Boo. If it was Super Boo he would have fired it right away since Gohan was enough. Vegeta said next time Kid Boo comes it will mean end of the World and Goku said to counter That end of the World they will train to not lose even in One-on-One.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:36 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 pm


So why is Gohan not summoned instantly to kill Boo? Goku against Piccolo-Boo said Gohan can beat him alone yet why is he trying to wish both ?

Makes no sense when he thought Gotenks in ssj3 was enough to kill Super Boo and Gohan too but both are needed to help them. Are you sure you aren't the one adding things? The verb matters.

According to Goku, Gotenks can beat Super Boo on his own. Gohan can beat him on his own yet Gohan and Gotenks are needed to fight him.

Do you even see the clear verbs? Gohan CAN'T Beat Kid Boo and Gotenks CAN'T beat Kid Boo. They both were needed to help them as in 4 vs 1. This is one of the many evidences.

Everytime something was happening with Boo's body they talk about Ki.
When Gohan-Boo powered down to Base form they talk about Ki. When Vegeta removed Good Boo from inside they talk about how his Ki was rising, yet they never talk about his Ki ever coming down. Toriyama uses his classic trope of having strongest final form to be smaller in size and one person mock it and get excited. We know they never judged off size because when Elder Kaioshin called out Goku after he admitted being selfish at such a critical time, he calmed him down by saying Boo can't come to them and they will come up with a strategy to beat him while he's blowing up planets. It proved again that he wasn't confident at all and was trying to stay away from him and sacrifice the Universe to come up with a strategy to beat him. While fighting, Vegeta admits Boo's is stronger than he thought and he will get killed in an instant. Goku similarly says how with Potara he would have been a matter of one blast and he tried to show off taking him alone. It's clear as hell that they both earlier underestimated off height. Kibito-Kaioshin outright told how the heart he gained after reducing power absorption was back to its original form which means without any Kaioshin influence he is the strongest. The minds and nature of Kaioshins were damaging to him and it was made pretty clear when his power increases after Vegeta tore Good Boo. At that point, there was no one to feed off other than his own body. That increasing power was his and Kibito-Kaioshin confirmed it by telling how he lost power through absorption but reverting to original state.
Because Vegeta stated that all of earth was going to take responsibility of saving itself this time. The story is clear.
That line is before Vegeta's and the verb here is they needed to fight whereas with Piccolo-Boo he said even Gohan can beat him alone. Potara were strictly recommended by Elder Kaioshin and when Goku refused he was called out. Then Goku himself regrets not using potara due to pride and getting ahead of himself. Again I ask you, why bring both to help them FIGHT if Gohan could've BEATEN him alone? Also, Genki Dama was better plan than Bringing Gohan and Gotenks because Goku thought Vegeta was talking about normal Genki Dama which takes little bit of energy from everyone but Vegeta asked to take as much power as possible and that's when Goku agreed because they needed as much power as possible from everyone and Gohan can't generate that big a blast.

it's confirmed that Super Genki Dama was their only option. Goku said without Satan and Fat boo, everyone else would have been done in. Meaning Gohan wasn't enough and after taking Gohan's Ki he said it wasn't enough to wipe Boo. If it was Super Boo he would have fired it right away since Gohan was enough. Vegeta said next time Kid Boo comes it will mean end of the World and Goku said to counter That end of the World they will train to not lose even in One-on-One.
Goku asking if "they" could fight means both in general. There is no specifics about them coming back and fighting together against Kid Buu. The story already established Super Buu would of killed Goku and Vegeta. While Gohan was stronger than Super Buu, Gotenks was fighting evenly with this same Buu. However, Goku could fight Kid Buu on his own. Which demonstrates Goku and Kid Buu are weaker. "Kid Buu being the strongest among Buu" supporters always has to go to great lengths to twist narration.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:26 pm

If it weren't for the shamelessly stupid actions of Son Goku for almost never wanting to take things seriously, Vegeta for always wanting to be a dick, Vegito for not going all-out on Buuhan and killing the one who had taken his family away from him, Son Gohan for almost never wanting to learn from his shortcomings, Trunks for not having the balls to stand up to his very own father and pretty much following in his very own old man's footsteps, Son Goten for not growing a spine of his very own and being his very own man, Gotenks for pulling a Vegeta through every damn moment of his very own existence, Shin for his complete and utter incompetence throughout the vast majority of his life as a Supreme Kai, and Kibito for not calling out Shin on his very many mistakes, then Majin Buu would have never been released from his chrysalis in the first place. But since those I had mentioned had placed themselves in this predicament by playing around and not taking out Majin Buu when they had the chance, then they all had to work as one to have killed Kid Buu with the Super Spirit Bomb. Even though Son Goku and Vegeta (Angel) could have stopped Kid Buu before the latter could have destroyed the Earth in the first place, by going right for the kill when Super Buu was still in the process of turning back into Kid Buu. As I honestly doubt that Super Buu at that point was capable of defending himself from Son Goku going to his absolute maxumum as a Super Saiyan 3 and Vegeta (Angel) going into his very own maximum power as a Super Saiyan 2. Especially since it is indeed very likely that Super Buu had his very own powers and abilities encumbered from being too preoccupied over the fact that he was literally ceasing to exist and being in turn replaced by his original self.

But even if Super Buu was still somehow capable of defending himself from SSJ3 Son Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta (Angel) attacking him from all sides, their battle would have the chance of waking up Son Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and Son Goten with a start. With Son Gohan, Piccolo, Trunks, and Son Goten then remembering the countless villainous acts the various incarnations of Majin Buu had all brought down upon them, almost all of their loved ones, and even their very own home planet. Which would have caused Son Gohan to power up into his Potential Unleashed form, Piccolo to finally remove his Weighted Clothing, and Trunks Brief and Son Goten to transform into Super Saiyans, before they would have went off to go and help SSJ3 Son Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta (Angel) defeat the devolving Super Buu. With it being a case of overkill beyond all imagination, as Ultimate Son Gohan alone would have sufficed to kill Super Buu by simply beating the latter to death with purely, physical blows. In a very similar way to like how Ultimate Son Gohan almost defeated Super Buu in their first fight.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 am


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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:43 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 am
Can you summarize what that person says? You didn’t provide any context.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:48 pm

I see you tweet about this constantly and I just can't wrap my head around it. I read the fight against Pure Boo recently as part of my re-read and there's just nothing substantial there that indicates Pure Boo is stronger. What text there is describing him avoids calling him the strongest in the way Dragon Ball seldom does. Toriyama opts for more dangerous.

Pure Boo not being the strongest is one of the most interesting things about him.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:43 pm
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:21 am
Can you summarize what that person says? You didn’t provide any context.
Revolushane, an eccentric YouTuber released a video detailing what would happen if in the Majin Buu Saga, Son Gohan in his Potential Unleashed form had fought against Kid Buu.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:39 pm

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm
Revolushane, an eccentric YouTuber released a video detailing what would happen if in the Majin Buu Saga, Son Gohan in his Potential Unleashed form had fought against Kid Buu.
Just a reminder that we aren’t supposed to post a link and leave it without addressing anything. What did the YouTuber say? Do you think it is reasonable? Do you agree? If yes/not, why?

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:39 pm
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm
Revolushane, an eccentric YouTuber released a video detailing what would happen if in the Majin Buu Saga, Son Gohan in his Potential Unleashed form had fought against Kid Buu.
Just a reminder that we aren’t supposed to post a link and leave it without addressing anything. What did the YouTuber say? Do you think it is reasonable? Do you agree? If yes/not, why?
Revolushane does make some very good points about the chances Ultimate Son Gohan and Kid Buu have against each other in the hypothetical scenario that has the two of them duking it out in the Sacred World Of The Kaioshin. But I really have nothing against anything that he brings up within the video.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:47 pm

Miracles wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:36 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 am
Miracles wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:40 pm

Because Vegeta stated that all of earth was going to take responsibility of saving itself this time. The story is clear.
That line is before Vegeta's and the verb here is they needed to fight whereas with Piccolo-Boo he said even Gohan can beat him alone. Potara were strictly recommended by Elder Kaioshin and when Goku refused he was called out. Then Goku himself regrets not using potara due to pride and getting ahead of himself. Again I ask you, why bring both to help them FIGHT if Gohan could've BEATEN him alone? Also, Genki Dama was better plan than Bringing Gohan and Gotenks because Goku thought Vegeta was talking about normal Genki Dama which takes little bit of energy from everyone but Vegeta asked to take as much power as possible and that's when Goku agreed because they needed as much power as possible from everyone and Gohan can't generate that big a blast.

it's confirmed that Super Genki Dama was their only option. Goku said without Satan and Fat boo, everyone else would have been done in. Meaning Gohan wasn't enough and after taking Gohan's Ki he said it wasn't enough to wipe Boo. If it was Super Boo he would have fired it right away since Gohan was enough. Vegeta said next time Kid Boo comes it will mean end of the World and Goku said to counter That end of the World they will train to not lose even in One-on-One.
Goku asking if "they" could fight means both in general. There is no specifics about them coming back and fighting together against Kid Buu. The story already established Super Buu would of killed Goku and Vegeta. While Gohan was stronger than Super Buu, Gotenks was fighting evenly with this same Buu. However, Goku could fight Kid Buu on his own. Which demonstrates Goku and Kid Buu are weaker. "Kid Buu being the strongest among Buu" supporters always has to go to great lengths to twist narration.
In the story, later on after Goku goes ssj3 :

1) Vegeta said he was stronger than he imagined
2) He said no one but only Goku can fight Boo
3) He called him "number 1" Which in Japanese means "Ichiban" which means strongest too.

None of Goku's hits or attack damaged Boo but somehow they are equal?


Are you on purpose reading the only things you want?
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:18 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:39 pm
Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:50 pm
Revolushane, an eccentric YouTuber released a video detailing what would happen if in the Majin Buu Saga, Son Gohan in his Potential Unleashed form had fought against Kid Buu.
Just a reminder that we aren’t supposed to post a link and leave it without addressing anything. What did the YouTuber say? Do you think it is reasonable? Do you agree? If yes/not, why?
Revolushane does make some very good points about the chances Ultimate Son Gohan and Kid Buu have against each other in the hypothetical scenario that has the two of them duking it out in the Sacred World Of The Kaioshin. But I really have nothing against anything that he brings up within the video.
No he doesn't. He glossed over lots of points and despite being told about Viz's Shenanigans, trusts it over original.

OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:48 pm
I see you tweet about this constantly and I just can't wrap my head around it. I read the fight against Pure Boo recently as part of my re-read and there's just nothing substantial there that indicates Pure Boo is stronger. What text there is describing him avoids calling him the strongest in the way Dragon Ball seldom does. Toriyama opts for more dangerous.

Pure Boo not being the strongest is one of the most interesting things about him.

Can you give me a quote where Toriyama wrote characters calling final forms Strongest? Because Says the same "oh he's shrunk lol" line for Perfect Cell too and Kuririn said same about Freeza Final form.


You make all theories but rely on badly translated manga and still can't find proof of where they say he got weaker because suddenly Toriyama will stop making characters not telling if Ki went down.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:32 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:47 pm
Miracles wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:36 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 am


That line is before Vegeta's and the verb here is they needed to fight whereas with Piccolo-Boo he said even Gohan can beat him alone. Potara were strictly recommended by Elder Kaioshin and when Goku refused he was called out. Then Goku himself regrets not using potara due to pride and getting ahead of himself. Again I ask you, why bring both to help them FIGHT if Gohan could've BEATEN him alone? Also, Genki Dama was better plan than Bringing Gohan and Gotenks because Goku thought Vegeta was talking about normal Genki Dama which takes little bit of energy from everyone but Vegeta asked to take as much power as possible and that's when Goku agreed because they needed as much power as possible from everyone and Gohan can't generate that big a blast.

it's confirmed that Super Genki Dama was their only option. Goku said without Satan and Fat boo, everyone else would have been done in. Meaning Gohan wasn't enough and after taking Gohan's Ki he said it wasn't enough to wipe Boo. If it was Super Boo he would have fired it right away since Gohan was enough. Vegeta said next time Kid Boo comes it will mean end of the World and Goku said to counter That end of the World they will train to not lose even in One-on-One.
Goku asking if "they" could fight means both in general. There is no specifics about them coming back and fighting together against Kid Buu. The story already established Super Buu would of killed Goku and Vegeta. While Gohan was stronger than Super Buu, Gotenks was fighting evenly with this same Buu. However, Goku could fight Kid Buu on his own. Which demonstrates Goku and Kid Buu are weaker. "Kid Buu being the strongest among Buu" supporters always has to go to great lengths to twist narration.
In the story, later on after Goku goes ssj3 :

1) Vegeta said he was stronger than he imagined
2) He said no one but only Goku can fight Boo
3) He called him "number 1" Which in Japanese means "Ichiban" which means strongest too.

None of Goku's hits or attack damaged Boo but somehow they are equal?


Are you on purpose reading the only things you want?
No I read all of that. Still does not disprove/contradict earlier events.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am

Can you give me a quote where Toriyama wrote characters calling final forms Strongest? Because Says the same "oh he's shrunk lol" line for Perfect Cell too and Kuririn said same about Freeza Final form.
This is another issue with your arguments. You recognize that Toriyama reuses similar narrative beats, but you fail to properly contextualize them. It doesn’t matter that “they’ve shrunk, they must be weaker” were used for Freeza & Cell. They’re Freeza and Cell, not Boo. Freeza and Cell also immediately assert themselves as the strongest form through combat, something Pure Boo doesn’t pull off because he fights Goku, Vegeta, and Mr. Boo— three characters blatantly weaker than Evil Boo. Logically, that means Pure Boo can’t be stronger.

It’s as simple as that. You can reference dialogue all you want, it means nothing when what’s actually happening on-page doesn’t line up with what you’re attempting to say.

I really think you need to read over your “evidence” again and try to come up with some new talking points. The Pure Boo debate is already so old and just so open & shut for anyone actually paying attention to the manga.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:46 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am
Can you give me a quote where Toriyama wrote characters calling final forms Strongest? Because Says the same "oh he's shrunk lol" line for Perfect Cell too and Kuririn said same about Freeza Final form.
This is another issue with your arguments. You recognize that Toriyama reuses similar narrative beats, but you fail to properly contextualize them. It doesn’t matter that “they’ve shrunk, they must be weaker” were used for Freeza & Cell. They’re Freeza and Cell, not Boo. Freeza and Cell also immediately assert themselves as the strongest form through combat, something Pure Boo doesn’t pull off because he fights Goku, Vegeta, and Mr. Boo— three characters blatantly weaker than Evil Boo. Logically, that means Pure Boo can’t be stronger.

It’s as simple as that. You can reference dialogue all you want, it means nothing when what’s actually happening on-page doesn’t line up with what you’re attempting to say.

I really think you need to read over your “evidence” again and try to come up with some new talking points. The Pure Boo debate is already so old and just so open & shut for anyone actually paying attention to the manga.
Ah... Not really. You just on purpose glossed over stuff which wasn't going with your narrative.

Goku is so much weaker than Super Boo that he intended to fight Super Boo in ssj despite going ssj3 right away near Bootenks. He even thought he can do damage in ssj with a smile LOL.

I love how you ignored a page and just glossed over what explained Why Kid Boo got stronger. These lines :
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
I don't know how Super Buu can be considered more powerful than Pure Buu when no real comments about his power are made (only Goku seemed to notice his power change on the Kai's plant - Gohan and the Kai's didn't notice until Goku mentioned it)
Super buu is comprised of the same matter as Fat buu - but in reverse (less Dai Kaioshinn influence)
Kid buu has no Kai influence - Fat buu is known to be weaker than Kid buu and has both Kais in him. Obviously the powerup (if any) received from the South Kai wasn't enough to be completely negated by the Daio Kaioshinn - meaning the power increase is more than likely not significant.

We know the Dai Kaioshinn effects Super buu power directly. His removal is directly responsible for Buu's transformation and rise in power. There is no debating this.

The fact that Kibitoshin said Boo lost a power inhibition implies he's stronger. And since Kibitoshin didn't say Boo lost any power boost, you can't infer he's weaker.

When Super Boo turned into Pure Boo, Kibitoshin said he has just lost the heart which lowered his power. This means that Super Boo was still weakened compared to Pure Boo. he's talking about the transformation they've just seen : Evil Buu reverting back to Pure Buu. Boo without any conscience is at his best. The rising Ki was part of the process of gaining old power back.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:38 pm

OhHiRenan wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:33 am
Can you give me a quote where Toriyama wrote characters calling final forms Strongest? Because Says the same "oh he's shrunk lol" line for Perfect Cell too and Kuririn said same about Freeza Final form.
This is another issue with your arguments. You recognize that Toriyama reuses similar narrative beats, but you fail to properly contextualize them. It doesn’t matter that “they’ve shrunk, they must be weaker” were used for Freeza & Cell. They’re Freeza and Cell, not Boo. Freeza and Cell also immediately assert themselves as the strongest form through combat, something Pure Boo doesn’t pull off because he fights Goku, Vegeta, and Mr. Boo— three characters blatantly weaker than Evil Boo. Logically, that means Pure Boo can’t be stronger.

It’s as simple as that. You can reference dialogue all you want, it means nothing when what’s actually happening on-page doesn’t line up with what you’re attempting to say.

I really think you need to read over your “evidence” again and try to come up with some new talking points. The Pure Boo debate is already so old and just so open & shut for anyone actually paying attention to the manga.
You summed it up nicely.

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