Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

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TobyS
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by TobyS » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm

All Genki is Ki but not all Ki is Genki.
Toriyama specifically split it into 3(or more) sections.
He specifically named the attack after one of the specified sections.

You are bending over backwards to ignore evidence and logic.
The previous thread you made on this issue went that way as well.

You show absolutely no sign that you would concede anything on this topic, you are only creating these threads to get an echo chamber, it's completely pointless.

Gohan has LOADS more potential than Goku. SS3 draws a Saiyan's power out to it's limits and Elder Kais ritual brings someones power to beyond their limits.

Goku was terrified to fight Buutenks. Handed the Buucolo fight to Gohan alone (but not himself).
He told Vegeta they couldn't manage anything against vanilla super Buu.

Goku puts up a decent fight against Pure Buu. SS2 Vegeta even lasts a couple of seconds. As much as Pure Buu is dicking around the gap between SS2Vegeta and Gohan is fucking humongous.

Goku Says he could obliterate Buu with full power but can't, Goku suggests bringing the boys (they could both be brought with one wish, so there is no reason to bring only one, could give them a choice, Gohan could be insurance for defused or absorbed Gotenks. NO mention of NEEDING the power of both, Vegeta says the bomb would allow the earthlings to save themselves, never contradicts Gohan/Gotenks plan wouldn't work. Goku doesn't disagree.

Kid Buu instantly destroyed the planet when he was last on earth so stronger fighters being on earth aren't a guarantee of later victory if the bomb fails.

All of this logically deduced or is on panel.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:15 pm

TobyS wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm All of this logically deduced or is on panel.
Quite a bizarre logic though. They preferred to risk the universe to prove a point instead of using a safe solution, and ironically they were annoyed that Earthlings apparently didn’t care about the universe.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Kaboom » Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:48 pm

Bringing in Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight isn't necessarily the safer solution though. They each already had opportunities to defeat Boo but screwed it up. Not because they were weaker, but because they were brash, careless, or actually outsmarted. So against a Boo who's now weaker but more unhinged and unpredictable, the more experienced and dependable Goku and Vegeta were probably the better option.

Also, keep in mind that originally, based on Goku's reaction when Vegeta brought it up... there was apparently no plan or intention to resurrect anyone until after Boo was defeated and the threat had passed. Hence Goku and Vegeta considering themselves the universe's last hope when they first started fighting Pure Boo.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:13 pm

I can see that Gohan and Gotenks being not mature for the task is such a deal, but can’t we consider that Goku and Vegeta would be there to coach them, in case they couldn’t figure out for themselves how to properly fight? After all, the absorption and candy beam abilities should be well known.

Also, I believe the point that is commonly brought up is that they were acting like the genkidama was the last hope, not exactly before Vegeta came up with the plan. I think that’s because Goku thought he would be able to defeat Boo by himself if SS3 worked as expected.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:31 am

Kaboom wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:48 pm Bringing in Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight isn't necessarily the safer solution though. They each already had opportunities to defeat Boo but screwed it up. Not because they were weaker, but because they were brash, careless, or actually outsmarted. So against a Boo who's now weaker but more unhinged and unpredictable, the more experienced and dependable Goku and Vegeta were probably the better option.

Also, keep in mind that originally, based on Goku's reaction when Vegeta brought it up... there was apparently no plan or intention to resurrect anyone until after Boo was defeated and the threat had passed. Hence Goku and Vegeta considering themselves the universe's last hope when they first started fighting Pure Boo.
I agree, also I think people might be forgetting Goku and Vegeta's saiya pride. Chicken out and call their baby boys to save their asses at the very thing they live for while having a fighting chance? it's their turn now and they were up to the task after all.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by TobyS » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:11 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:15 pm
TobyS wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm All of this logically deduced or is on panel.
Quite a bizarre logic though. They preferred to risk the universe to prove a point instead of using a safe solution, and ironically they were annoyed that Earthlings apparently didn’t care about the universe.
Goku has been trying to pass the torch the entire arc, thinking he was going to stay dead. Vegeta than dies and thinks he's going to stay dead.

Getting the earth used to protecting itself, because they won't be around forever is a total logical and thematic extension of that.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pm

Skar wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:54 pm
Ripper 30 wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:56 amClearly it takes Ki, Genki is Ki. Type Genki Dama on Google translate and it will translate as Energy Sphere. Genki is energy. Are you sure You are the one who's not misinformed? The term "Genki Dama" is used to make pun on "Denki Gama" Which means Electric Rice Cooker. The name has got nothing to do with it when characters receive Ki from everyone.
I'm not the one to come up with this and this is an old point that's already been brought up and refuted on the forum. Here's an old thread that explains it more detail.

Herms:
Yeah, I assume genki doesn't vary as much from person to person as overall ki. So a regular Earthling's battle power is 5 and Gohan's is 14 gazillion or whatever, but the amount of genki they have to donate wouldn't vary by nearly that much. In a pinch, this might also explain why when Babidi plugs in the energy Yamu and Spopovitch stole from Gohan into Boo's ball, he wonders how many "hundreds" of Earthlings the two must have gathered energy from.

Heck, maybe genki doesn't even vary at all between a different person's forms. Otherwise Goten and Trunks are being really stupid donating their energy in their regular form, as opposed to as Super Saiyans or as Gotenks. OK, so the kids are pretty stupid, but nothing is done to indicate that them donating their energy like that is supposed to be a mistake.


Someone else explained that "genki" could translate to vigor or stamina which might go down if they transform. At the most conservative estimate, SSJ3 Gotenks is a few hundred times stronger than base Goten and Trunks so it would make a huge difference if they contribute their overall ki to the Spirit Bomb and not only a component of it.
Except it explicitly said Ki. The reason Goten and Trunks don't fuse is same as Why Gohan and Kuririn didn't power up to Maximim before giving Piccolo their Ki on Namek. Gen-Ki literally means Original Ki or current Ki. Google Translate Genki Dama, it says Energy Ball. Manga uses Energy Ball too. With Gohan there, it's not necessary for them to go ssj3 but what it was gathering was definitely Power. They keep on using Ki, Genki and power interchangeably yet You think it's not Energy but stamina? Why would Goku be able to sense Vigor of people but call it Ki? Sounds contrived theory to me. You are trying to make it look more complex than it is, in DB there's only one thing that flows in everyone and that's Ki. Genki Dama isn't even a thing, its pun on "Denki Gama" which means Electric Rice Cooker. Genki is synonym for energy, the rest two things Toriyama mentioned had Nothing to do with Power, they were mental states. You think they can send their minds :lol:
Also, Toriyama interviews outright imply that Kid Boo was strongest Boo.

Yea Older Kaioshin powered up Gohan yet he thinks Genki Dama failing is end and never recommended Gohan

Goku was LITERALLY trying to fight Super Boo as an ssj and with a smirk was trying to damage Super Boo of all people in ssj. Ssj3 is unsustainable on Earth that's why he never tried to use it unless last resort.
Goku also said same thing about Kid Boo's blast that both him and Vegeta lacked power to repel Kid Boo's blast and instead of going ssj3 he started pleading to him, when near Bootenks he went ssj3 right off the bat.

Goku hardly puts up a fight, non of his hits or kamehamehas do shit to Boo and Boo was clearly toying with him as seen with him drawing regeneration to annoy Goku as Goku noticed that his Strength wasn't falling at all even after taking on Goku's Kamehameha. SSJ2 Vegeta couldn't even keep his eyes open and he wasn't killed because he could last but because Kid Boo is a sadist. He never tried to blast Vegeta, not once. He was choking him and playing with him like with Good Boo and he even holds back his punch near Satan.

You are forming your own chains lol. I guess you should count Satan too then.


Also Goku never said Full Power, he said he needed to gather Ki for a minute to wipe him out. This has got nothing to do with getting stronger, he's just gathering Ki to make a bigger blast. The fact that Someone other than Gohan is needed means Gohan wasn't enough. The insurance, defused or absorbed is your theory. Kid Boo never tried to destroy Kaioshin realm or absorb anyone. Vegeta choosing Genki Dama over Gohan and Gotenks means it's the better choice unless you think Gohan can make a blast on level of Super Genki Dama. Vegeta also said that Kid Boo would kill all earthlings if Genki Dama failed which means Gohan wasn't strong enough.

Kid Boo never tried to Blow Kaioshin realm, infact he started sleeping while waiting for Goku Vegeta to decide who would go first.

You are again twisting facts. Vegeta easily Deflected Kid Boo's blast alone but its only when Kid Boo made his own Genki Dama Level blast was when Goku agreed it's pointless to stop it because it was powerful than both him and vegeta's combined powers. He says "We" like inside Super Boo.

None of what you said proved anything. You kept changing story to fit your narrative.

TobyS wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:11 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:15 pm
TobyS wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm All of this logically deduced or is on panel.
Quite a bizarre logic though. They preferred to risk the universe to prove a point instead of using a safe solution, and ironically they were annoyed that Earthlings apparently didn’t care about the universe.
Goku has been trying to pass the torch the entire arc, thinking he was going to stay dead. Vegeta than dies and thinks he's going to stay dead.

Getting the earth used to protecting itself, because they won't be around forever is a total logical and thematic extension of that.
Yet Goku said "Without Good Boo and Satan, We and everyone else would have been done in". Everyone = Everyone which includes Gohan too. When Vegeta asked for solutions to counter Kid Boo's power which can end everything, Goku said they needed training to counter Kid Boo and not lose to him alone.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:31 am
Kaboom wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:48 pm Bringing in Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight isn't necessarily the safer solution though. They each already had opportunities to defeat Boo but screwed it up. Not because they were weaker, but because they were brash, careless, or actually outsmarted. So against a Boo who's now weaker but more unhinged and unpredictable, the more experienced and dependable Goku and Vegeta were probably the better option.

Also, keep in mind that originally, based on Goku's reaction when Vegeta brought it up... there was apparently no plan or intention to resurrect anyone until after Boo was defeated and the threat had passed. Hence Goku and Vegeta considering themselves the universe's last hope when they first started fighting Pure Boo.
I agree, also I think people might be forgetting Goku and Vegeta's saiya pride. Chicken out and call their baby boys to save their asses at the very thing they live for while having a fighting chance? it's their turn now and they were up to the task after all.
Yet using baby boy's power and begging for power..

Goku infact said "You don't care about what happens to Earth and the rest of the universe? Stupid Bastards"
Why would Universe be in danger despite supposedly stronger Gohan?
Kaboom wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 6:48 pm Bringing in Gohan and/or Gotenks to fight isn't necessarily the safer solution though. They each already had opportunities to defeat Boo but screwed it up. Not because they were weaker, but because they were brash, careless, or actually outsmarted. So against a Boo who's now weaker but more unhinged and unpredictable, the more experienced and dependable Goku and Vegeta were probably the better option.

Also, keep in mind that originally, based on Goku's reaction when Vegeta brought it up... there was apparently no plan or intention to resurrect anyone until after Boo was defeated and the threat had passed. Hence Goku and Vegeta considering themselves the universe's last hope when they first started fighting Pure Boo.
See, Kid Boo never showed any signs of trickery Like planning or strategizing.
He never :
- Tried to Blow Kaioshin Realm
- Go all out against anyone evident by him not killing Good Boo, Satan and Vegeta instantly but toying with them and even with Goku him not going for kill but just drawing regeneration to annoy Goku.
- made a Vanishing Ball like one on Earth

Why would they fear him for his skills?
He was so dangerous that he never bothered to use that big vanishing ball again and never was desperate enough to resort to absorption. Also, you are going against established narrative. The last time we hear anything about his Ki was when Goku and Vegeta come out after removing Good Boo from Super Boo's insides, which means no Power of Kaioshins to feed of, Good Boo had both Kaioshin influence in him, not one but both. Yet Boo's power grew and he after Buff form immediately reverts to Kid form yet not a single person including Dende or Kibito-Kaioshin said anything about Ki going down.

Where do you interpret such theories from ? You are telling me Old Kaioshin would say "now that Boo has gotten weaker you should also fuse" ? It makes no sense. Kibito-Kaioshin outright told about process of absorption weakening him and him gaining back the Power.


No sir, even after they killed him Goku said without Satan and Good Boo's help they all would have been killed. "Ore Tachi Minna" was what he said.

Ore Tachi = We
Minna = everyone.

Everyone includes his Son and everyone in the universe.

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:15 pm
TobyS wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:55 pm All of this logically deduced or is on panel.
Quite a bizarre logic though. They preferred to risk the universe to prove a point instead of using a safe solution, and ironically they were annoyed that Earthlings apparently didn’t care about the universe.
You know they will twist things around. Either keep coming in with new theories or say "Boo arc sucks so don't think about it much".
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:31 am I agree, also I think people might be forgetting Goku and Vegeta's saiya pride. Chicken out and call their baby boys to save their asses at the very thing they live for while having a fighting chance? it's their turn now and they were up to the task after all.
Yet using baby boy's power and begging for power..
I think there is a clear difference between using a technique that gathers the energy of every living thing and asking someone else to fight for you.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm
Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:31 am I agree, also I think people might be forgetting Goku and Vegeta's saiya pride. Chicken out and call their baby boys to save their asses at the very thing they live for while having a fighting chance? it's their turn now and they were up to the task after all.
Yet using baby boy's power and begging for power..
I think there is a clear difference between using a technique that gathers the energy of every living thing and asking someone else to fight for you.
Using a technique which takes everyone's power right upto their limit shows that they both weren't enough otherwise Goku would have fired it right after taking Gohan's power.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:42 am

Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm
Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pm

Yet using baby boy's power and begging for power..
I think there is a clear difference between using a technique that gathers the energy of every living thing and asking someone else to fight for you.
Using a technique which takes everyone's power right upto their limit shows that they both weren't enough otherwise Goku would have fired it right after taking Gohan's power.
I don't know, it was never stated that genki dama grows stronger depending on the contributor's power, actually the other way around might be it, Goku needed more people chipping in, there was no need for them to be particularly strong(or transformed), just had to be more of them.
It isn't even clear what type of energy it takes, but is one that with even the help of plants and frogs you can damage Final Form Freeza, also Piccolo used the energy he took from the short guys to stall Freeza, before he realised what was going on, instead of donating it for the genki dama and getting it over with, so it seems it does not matter how much power you have, you give your quota of lifeforce and that's it.
I don't want to mix media but Anime DBS supports this when Vegeta, with Freeza by far the strongest contributor, decides to not contribute against Jiren and stand guard.

And SS3 Goku's power was never outmatched by Buu, he couldn't kill him due to the power drain but wasn't weaker than him either. Goku misread the SS3 transformation, not Buu's power.
Power-wise they were even, technically he did have a fighting chance, and after fighting him concluded that he could even kill him as SS3. When that power couldn't be sustained anymore they went for a last-resort super technique that has a bigger impact than what anyone can output individually. Strategy and technique are still parts of a skillset and are nothing at all like calling someone to fight for you.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:56 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:42 am
Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:35 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:13 pm

I think there is a clear difference between using a technique that gathers the energy of every living thing and asking someone else to fight for you.
Using a technique which takes everyone's power right upto their limit shows that they both weren't enough otherwise Goku would have fired it right after taking Gohan's power.
I don't know, it was never stated that genki dama grows stronger depending on the contributor's power, actually the other way around might be it, Goku needed more people chipping in, there was no need for them to be particularly strong(or transformed), just had to be more of them.
It isn't even clear what type of energy it takes, but is one that with even the help of plants and frogs you can damage Final Form Freeza, also Piccolo used the energy he took from the short guys to stall Freeza, before he realised what was going on, instead of donating it for the genki dama and getting it over with, so it seems it does not matter how much power you have, you give your quota of lifeforce and that's it.
I don't want to mix media but Anime DBS supports this when Vegeta, with Freeza by far the strongest contributor, decides to not contribute against Jiren and stand guard.

And SS3 Goku's power was never outmatched by Buu, he couldn't kill him due to the power drain but wasn't weaker than him either. Goku misread the SS3 transformation, not Buu's power.
Power-wise they were even, technically he did have a fighting chance, and after fighting him concluded that he could even kill him as SS3. When that power couldn't be sustained anymore they went for a last-resort super technique that has a bigger impact than what anyone can output individually. Strategy and technique are still parts of a skillset and are nothing at all like calling someone to fight for you.
It clearly takes Ki.

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P2.2-5, P3.1-2
Kuririn: “It-it’s huge…And it’s getting even bigger…”
Piccolo: “Is it really that big?”
Gohan: “On Earth it was about this big [he holds out his hands]”
Kuririn: “Th-this time its diameter is about 50 meters…He shouldn’t be able to make a Genki-Dama that huge on this planet…Goku must have even gathered ki from the surrounding planets…”
Piccolo: “Freeza doesn’t seem to have noticed yet…So why doesn’t Goku attack with that ball right away?...”
Kuririn: “Goku’s definitely thinking that if he doesn’t gather more ki and make it even huger, it won’t be able to defeat Freeza…”

Chapter: 315 (DBZ 121), P4.1
Goku: “This thing’s big weakness is the time it takes to gather ki…”
Even though he said umpteenth times that he was gathering Ki, it will never be clear to You what type of energy it is because Toriyama definitely would introduce 100 types of Ki and try to complicate the Power system in a show which is aimed at kids.

It wasn't just plant and frogs, you don't even remember it. The ki from Namek wasn't enough so he draws ki from other planets too. Why the heck would Goku want his friends to use their energy? To lower their own chances of Victory? That's like asking why didn't Satan and Vegeta gave their Ki into Genki Dama, because they are not supposed to use up their power otherwise with them drained who will get them to ship? Piccolo asked them to save their Ki as well.

Also then why explain how did the Genki Dama instantly became huge the moment Gohan and his friends gave their Ki into it? Even though they are barely more than 20 yet they made it instantly bigger especially Gohan. Goku even mentioned that how the Ki from Gohan's side made it even bigger from start.

What kind of hazy memory you have? Freeza gave His Ki for Genki Dama. Vegeta didn't give due to ego, it was clear. I also love the selective memory you have, they all said "Make use of our Ki" or "take as much as you want". But it's different type of energy, right?

When it was getting sucked from Humans, they don't say "he took my special kind of energy", they say "He took my power". King Enma said "it had Power from Afterlife too"


He never even felt Power drain until he went over 1 minute mark. The very first, the most fresh attack was a Kamehameha which Kid Boo tanked then another one too. So Goku wasn't weaker than him, right? On earth Vegeta easily repelled his attack, then when he started making another one Goku stood there stunned and instead of going ssj3 instantly like near Bootenks, he pleaded him to not release it. He OUTRIGHT stated that both he and vegeta can't repell it. Yet he tried to counter Vegeta's Gyallic Ho in Saiyan arc despite being 100 times worn out in it but here he outright stated that Kid Boo's attack was so powerful that both Vegeta and him can't stop it. Old Kaioshin said they needed potara right away to counter the blast which is why Kibito-Kaioshin rushes to Earth. You are not making sense btw, it's not just the attacks but none of Goku's punches, kicks or generic blasts had any effect on him.

Goku's first attack on Kid Buu is a Kamehameha, Goku never solely fought physical attacks only as he uses several ki blast at different points, all equally ineffective.Very doubtful Goku could kill anything if giving the chance since not even Kid Buu's blast that could easily oneshot Goku on Earth did anything to himself and he was holding back on Earth no less. More than likely Goku was fucked against Kid Buu no matter what he did and simply out his league. Again, if Goku was anywhere near Kid Buu's level he would be frustrating him like Gotenks did to Super Buu or SSJ2 Gohan did to Cell or SSJ Goku did to Freeza, but he wasn't which is why that never took place, the only thing that did frustrate Kid Buu like Super Buu was the Genki Dama, but that isn't representative of Goku's own battle power though. Goku went all out from the very beginning by his own admission and couldn't do shit and had zero effect on Kid Buu and regrets destroying the potara and mentions Kid Buu is playing around evident by him slowly dragging out his regeneration as he doesn't consider Goku a threat which is interesting since when Super Buu fought his equal SSJ3 Gotenks he was shown taking significant damage he couldn't laugh off and getting mentally frustrated, something that's completely absent with Kid Buu vs. Goku though. Then I guess, Cell and Goku were even too according to your logic. He never concluded he can kill him, you are changing sentence structure. He regretted Refusing Potara, admitted that he shouldn't have taken him on and he got too cocky.
Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

He is saying if he wants to wipe him he needs to gather Ki, none of them prove he's confident :lol:
The fact that he's resorted to gathering Extra Ki proves he can't do shit to Kid Boo. Do you know when they take time in gathering Ki? When the opponent is stronger than them.

Like Piccolo did against Raditz :
Piccolo : Yea That's Part of The Problem, But This Technique Takes a Lot of Time to Build up The Necessary Ki. While I'm Doing that, You're Going to Have to Fight Him Alone and Keep Him Distracted.
Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P3.2, P4.2
Context: while charging the Kamehameha
Cell: “I’ve already gathered enough ki power to blow away not only the Earth, but the solar system as well!”
Gathering Ki isn't same as getting full power. It's about making the blast more powerful. The fact that Goku said that without Satan and Boo's help them and everyone else would have been killed means Gohan wasn't stronger than Kid Boo or else Goku would not be fretting over Genki Dama not working. Everyone = Goku's friends and rest of the Universe. Even when Vegeta asked for solutions to stop Kid Boo from dooming the Universe, Goku said they needed to train to be able to fight him again.

Kid Boo > Super Boo is clear, as We know that after removing Good Boo they unintentionally powered him up and removed the limiter of Kai.
After Kai influence was removed, Buu got stronger. Not weaker. And Super buu said he will cease to exist. That means he has no knowledge of his past life.
Super buu is the evil manifestation dominance of pure fat buu. His memory are that of fat boo and he even remembered Gohan and goku from his fat boo memory.
Less restricted therefore more powerful but still the Kai influence from fat boo gave him little bit of heart and speaking skills.
Once good buu is torn out. That restriction is entirely gone. Nothing to draw off of but his own self.
Kid buu is the strongest buu. Whether that's referring to Base Super buu or Buuhan is open for interpretation, but regardless. Nothing said he was weaker than before. He got stronger. When he was going from buff to kid, no one said he's losing ki but both goku and Kaioshin wanted him to stop. They never refuted the line about rising Ki.
Goku said that Vegetto can eliminate Kid buu but thinks Gohan and Gotenks both need to come to help fight him.
Goku in the end says that they must train to prepare for a potential return of Kid buu. Not once was Gohan brought up as an option.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Skar » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:46 am

Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pmExcept it explicitly said Ki. The reason Goten and Trunks don't fuse is same as Why Gohan and Kuririn didn't power up to Maximim before giving Piccolo their Ki on Namek. Gen-Ki literally means Original Ki or current Ki. Google Translate Genki Dama, it says Energy Ball. Manga uses Energy Ball too. With Gohan there, it's not necessary for them to go ssj3 but what it was gathering was definitely Power. They keep on using Ki, Genki and power interchangeably yet You think it's not Energy but stamina? Why would Goku be able to sense Vigor of people but call it Ki? Sounds contrived theory to me. You are trying to make it look more complex than it is, in DB there's only one thing that flows in everyone and that's Ki. Genki Dama isn't even a thing, its pun on "Denki Gama" which means Electric Rice Cooker. Genki is synonym for energy, the rest two things Toriyama mentioned had Nothing to do with Power, they were mental states. You think they can send their minds :lol:
Also, Toriyama interviews outright imply that Kid Boo was strongest Boo.
I used to think Gohan had to be weaker than Kid Buu since he I assumed Gohan's total energy went to the Spirit Bomb. I changed my opinion after reading what Herms said because he's always been well-informed and has a much better understanding of the language. I have to hand it to you that not even Herms is enough convince you and you're still sticking to the same old argument that's been refuted multiple times on the forum. This thread isn't using any new evidence and the same we've all seen already so I'm curious why you think it would have a different outcome than all the other similar threads.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:30 pm

Ripper 30 wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:56 am snip
You don't expect someone to read all that do you? Especially with that attitute and lack of respect you show that everybody already seems to be aware of, I thought it was just people badmouthing others but damn they were right.
If you need 20.000 words to expose your own flawed headcanon pretending to explain something that needs no explanation, then I'm gone, and I can't even understand how you can provide manga dialogues and recall anime filler clips in the same post while treating the show like it has the coherence of a Harold Pinter's work.

Unlike you, I won't disrespect you nor try to prove your headcanon wrong because as others have stated you won't budge, and you seem pretty happy with it. I just won't mind you, and because clearly respect is something that cannot be expected from you, I'll settle with you not minding me.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:54 am

Skar wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:46 am
Ripper 30 wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:42 pmExcept it explicitly said Ki. The reason Goten and Trunks don't fuse is same as Why Gohan and Kuririn didn't power up to Maximim before giving Piccolo their Ki on Namek. Gen-Ki literally means Original Ki or current Ki. Google Translate Genki Dama, it says Energy Ball. Manga uses Energy Ball too. With Gohan there, it's not necessary for them to go ssj3 but what it was gathering was definitely Power. They keep on using Ki, Genki and power interchangeably yet You think it's not Energy but stamina? Why would Goku be able to sense Vigor of people but call it Ki? Sounds contrived theory to me. You are trying to make it look more complex than it is, in DB there's only one thing that flows in everyone and that's Ki. Genki Dama isn't even a thing, its pun on "Denki Gama" which means Electric Rice Cooker. Genki is synonym for energy, the rest two things Toriyama mentioned had Nothing to do with Power, they were mental states. You think they can send their minds :lol:
Also, Toriyama interviews outright imply that Kid Boo was strongest Boo.
I used to think Gohan had to be weaker than Kid Buu since he I assumed Gohan's total energy went to the Spirit Bomb. I changed my opinion after reading what Herms said because he's always been well-informed and has a much better understanding of the language. I have to hand it to you that not even Herms is enough convince you and you're still sticking to the same old argument that's been refuted multiple times on the forum. This thread isn't using any new evidence and the same we've all seen already so I'm curious why you think it would have a different outcome than all the other similar threads.
Are you seriously denying evidences over Someone's opinion? You might as well tag Herms to debate for you since you don't know much. Herms in his video with Geekdom said it's not clear and either can be stronger :lol:

The Fact is Goku said he received "Gohan and other's Ki". Humans after getting their energy drained don't say "oh he took my special Kind of energy which only takes 1/3 of Ki but not full ki", they say "I can't believe it...he took my power". Vegeta asked them to give their power and Satan asked them to give full Power. It's clear they were giving Power but no, Herms > Toriyama, right? Even though he said it was too vague to say anything.

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:30 pm
Ripper 30 wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:56 am snip
You don't expect someone to read all that do you? Especially with that attitute and lack of respect you show that everybody already seems to be aware of, I thought it was just people badmouthing others but damn they were right.
If you need 20.000 words to expose your own flawed headcanon pretending to explain something that needs no explanation, then I'm gone, and I can't even understand how you can provide manga dialogues and recall anime filler clips in the same post while treating the show like it has the coherence of a Harold Pinter's work.

Unlike you, I won't disrespect you nor try to prove your headcanon wrong because as others have stated you won't budge, and you seem pretty happy with it. I just won't mind you, and because clearly respect is something that cannot be expected from you, I'll settle with you not minding me.
Flawed headcanon? Yea my post is long due to the manga quotes I post but they are called headcanon ? Irony how you are calling my points headcanons when they are using manga lines.


Nice counter, you are totally respectful.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Desassina » Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:56 am

I think that Majin Boo was great because it broke expectations within the same arc and he still keeps doing so in the current one (Moro's). From Goku not knowing the fatso's power (he said that it felt like a lie), before he was prepared to fight the small one (when the former could have been beaten), to assuming that Gotenks would be all that (prior to him showing up), and witnessing fusion through Super Saiyan 3 (Goku did not see the fused kids performance against Evil Boo), I think that it's safe to say that Gohan (who surpassed Gotenks) might have been the strongest at some point (until the arc needed Goku to be the one). And you know what? It still works.

It's also quite greedy to want Gohan, who spent 7 years of his life not training, to suddenly surpass his father in one day and with a ritual. Goku versus Pure Boo isn't the strongest fight in that arc either. That moment goes to Vegetto versus Gohan Boo, an uneven fight or beating notwithstanding, but one that proves that fusion was the strongest feat. The Genki-dama being powered up by genki and Ki doesn't hint at a fighter's worth except the one carrying the attack and indeed was Goku the one who finished Majin Boo off. Gohan and Gotenks could fight without being able to vaporize him due to Goku's belief that they could help.

So while Pure Boo was not the strongest form that Goku sensed, we know now that he had actual God power in him, the latter being unknown and outside of Goku's sensing ability, which means that Boo was initially weaker than what he turned out to be, and would have pushed the Genki-dama had he unlocked more of it. The fat Majin Boo with the southern and Dai Kaioshin's strength through his memories would have been the strongest, but the docile nature kicked in and his evil took over to absorb the fatso in a weaker state, but their reversal allowed the original to possess that God power without a hindrance.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Skar » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:32 am

Ripper 30 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:54 amAre you seriously denying evidences over Someone's opinion? You might as well tag Herms to debate for you since you don't know much. Herms in his video with Geekdom said it's not clear and either can be stronger :lol:
I don't know if you missed the first part of my response but I said I used to have the same opinion as you. Believe it or not when presented with new information or perspective that they feel makes more sense than their own, some people are willing to change their opinions. Toriyama explained there were different components of ki, he created a technique called the "Genki Dama", and I felt Herms' explanation fit and explains why Goten and Trunks didn't transforming or fuse.

Since Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu but weaker than Buutenks, that means SSJ3 Gotenks is at least half as strong as Gohan. That would've made a huge difference towards the Spirit Bomb if they were sharing their entire ki rather than only giving less than 1% of what Gotenks could've given.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Skar wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:32 am
Ripper 30 wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:54 amAre you seriously denying evidences over Someone's opinion? You might as well tag Herms to debate for you since you don't know much. Herms in his video with Geekdom said it's not clear and either can be stronger :lol:
I don't know if you missed the first part of my response but I said I used to have the same opinion as you. Believe it or not when presented with new information or perspective that they feel makes more sense than their own, some people are willing to change their opinions. Toriyama explained there were different components of ki, he created a technique called the "Genki Dama", and I felt Herms' explanation fit and explains why Goten and Trunks didn't transforming or fuse.

Since Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu but weaker than Buutenks, that means SSJ3 Gotenks is at least half as strong as Gohan. That would've made a huge difference towards the Spirit Bomb if they were sharing their entire ki rather than only giving less than 1% of what Gotenks could've given.
Bro, they outright say thing like "give me your power" or "no one except our friends is sending us Ki" or "We used up all of our Ki". What makes you think it's 1/3 of Ki? The humans say "they are taking our power". Genki is Synonym for energy, Power and Ki. Gen means current or origin so either way its original Ki or current Ki. No matter how You look at it its Ki. Also, as established in chapter 499, Goten and Trunks had to wait a period of time (likely an hour) before being able to fuse again. It is very likely that 1 hour hadn’t passed between the time Gotenks split inside Buu and Buutenks reverted to Buucolo. Now you might say. “OK they couldn’t fuse but why didn't they at least turn SSJ?” Well they didn't for the same reason Vegeta didn't turn SSJ when he fought kid Buu in chapter 515 while trying to buy as much time as possible. There's a reason Goku said they were gonna get doomed without Genki Dama and moments before he received Ki from humans, he actually thought it was hopeless. Genki Dama was clearly last resort and that's why Satan was called World Saviour by Goku. Even later he said that without him, they and everyone else would have been killed. Which makes no sense if Gohan is stronger but he obviously wasn't.
Desassina wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:56 am I think that Majin Boo was great because it broke expectations within the same arc and he still keeps doing so in the current one (Moro's). From Goku not knowing the fatso's power (he said that it felt like a lie), before he was prepared to fight the small one (when the former could have been beaten), to assuming that Gotenks would be all that (prior to him showing up), and witnessing fusion through Super Saiyan 3 (Goku did not see the fused kids performance against Evil Boo), I think that it's safe to say that Gohan (who surpassed Gotenks) might have been the strongest at some point (until the arc needed Goku to be the one). And you know what? It still works.

It's also quite greedy to want Gohan, who spent 7 years of his life not training, to suddenly surpass his father in one day and with a ritual. Goku versus Pure Boo isn't the strongest fight in that arc either. That moment goes to Vegetto versus Gohan Boo, an uneven fight or beating notwithstanding, but one that proves that fusion was the strongest feat. The Genki-dama being powered up by genki and Ki doesn't hint at a fighter's worth except the one carrying the attack and indeed was Goku the one who finished Majin Boo off. Gohan and Gotenks could fight without being able to vaporize him due to Goku's belief that they could help.

So while Pure Boo was not the strongest form that Goku sensed, we know now that he had actual God power in him, the latter being unknown and outside of Goku's sensing ability, which means that Boo was initially weaker than what he turned out to be, and would have pushed the Genki-dama had he unlocked more of it. The fat Majin Boo with the southern and Dai Kaioshin's strength through his memories would have been the strongest, but the docile nature kicked in and his evil took over to absorb the fatso in a weaker state, but their reversal allowed the original to possess that God power without a hindrance.
The way the story is written :

The final boss

The evil incarnate

Nothing manages to finish him and he's toying with them before eradicating life everywhere he goes

What's the solution?

The representation of the Good in the universe (remember how Vegeta and Goku only asked to wish good people back)

Every living being, the oceans, nature itself across all the universe giving their energy to vanquish Evil


Why would Toriyama make such a foe, everything he represents, not the strongest Boo? He wrote him the strongest not because of additions and substractions of Z warriors but because the narrative demands it

There are clear evidences :
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption[s]…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”
we know the Dai Kaioshinn effects Super boo's power directly. His removal is directly responsible for Boo's transformation and rise in power. There is no debating this.

The fact that Kibitoshin said Boo lost a power inhibition implies he's stronger. And since Kibitoshin didn't say Boo lost any power boost, we can't infer he's weaker.

When Super Boo turned into Pure Boo, Kibitokai said he has just lost the heart which lowered his power. This means that Super Boo was still weakened compared to Pure Boo. he's talking about the transformation they've just seen : Evil Buu reverting back to Pure Boo


Interview made it clear :
Q: In several parts of Dragon Ball, the most powerful character is actually the smallest, cutest and youngest-looking. For example, young Goku, or Freeza and Majin Boo in their final transformations. Is that because kids are small and cute, but also want to be powerful?
Toriyama : I wanted to go against people’s expectation that the strong ones always get stronger and bigger. I consciously tried to switch between telling a straightforward story and telling one that was unconventional and contradictory.

Notice how guides, manga, games and interviews also say the same.
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:42 pm

To sum up your theory: Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan [Mystic] because you assume Goku meant Vegeta brought back Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. Including a Genki Dama struggling to kill Kid Buu even with Gohans and everyone else Genki to their limits?

Your entire post is conjecture. Goku didn't say Gohan and Gotenks will fight Buu at the same time. Vegeta stating the Genki Dama absorbing Ki to their limits were concerning the normal humans on earth only. Nothing about Gohan or Gotenks being pushed to the brim.

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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by Ripper 30 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:26 am

Miracles wrote: Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:42 pm To sum up your theory: Kid Buu is stronger than Gohan [Mystic] because you assume Goku meant Vegeta brought back Gohan and Gotenks to fight Kid Buu at the same time. Including a Genki Dama struggling to kill Kid Buu even with Gohans and everyone else Genki to their limits?

Your entire post is conjecture. Goku didn't say Gohan and Gotenks will fight Buu at the same time. Vegeta stating the Genki Dama absorbing Ki to their limits were concerning the normal humans on earth only. Nothing about Gohan or Gotenks being pushed to the brim.
No. You are making up conjectures because that's not my only point. Also, Goku told Piccolo-Boo that "Even Gohan can beat you" yet with Pure Boo he wanted Gotenks and Gohan to help them as in 4 vs 1. But Gohan solos, right? Also you are twisting facts, clear Facts. Goku outright says "This is Gohan and other's Ki" (Gohan Tachi no Ki). The word he used is "" (Ki) not "元気" (Genki). When Old Kaioshin talked about Genki Dama still lacking in power, Dende says "We used up all of our Ki". The reason Kibito-Kaioshin can't even stand up or perform basic Teleport technique was because he drained Ki.

Gen means original or current and Ki means Ki. So its either way original Ki or current Ki. The meaning is same. Vegeta asked to give all of their power. Then he was receiving Ki from them. The humans don't even say "oh my Genki is getting drained" but they say that their power is getting drained resulting in them breathing heavily.

Not just that, After Gohan gave his Ki, not Genki, but Ki. Goku told how it was big from get go but not enough to wipe out Boo. That incomplete Genki Dama had all of Gohan's power yet it wasn't enough to wipe out Boo but Gohan stomped Super Boo so if Kid Boo was weaker than him, Goku would have already fired it. Unless you think Gohan can make an attack on Level of Super Genki Dama alone or hold it like Pure Boo.


Your whole assumption is conjecture. If Super Boo got weaker after Removal of Absorptions, then why didn't they say it? You are the one assuming things when they never refuted the point about his power increasing earlier on when he was reverting to Buff Boo. I love how you totally gloss over Kibito-Kaioshin outright stating Absorption of Kaioshins weakened him and saying how he just now lost the heart which lowered his power in reply to question of "Most Difficult Boo". Also, If Gohan can BEAT Piccolo-Boo, then why would Goku want help from Gohan AND Gotenks to help them in FIGHTING Boo ? That says a lot of Confidence, there's a clear distinction made by Goku but it's pointless. You will only believe what you wanna believe no matter what manga, anime, games, interviews, guides, Covers, DVD booklets say.

So Genki Dama is only taking full power from earthlings, Gohan, Goten and Trunks are also Earthlings but they don't give all of their Ki? Goku isn't calling out Gohan to give his Full Ki but others yet saying Universe will be doomed if Genki Dama doesn't work. So Goku is desperate for Power and even telling Humans that failing it will result in them getting killed and Universe going Poof but doesn't take as much power as he wants from Gohan of all people.

Yes sir, I am making up headcanons. Your theory is more canon than Manga itself.

If Toriyama would want to power down Super Boo, he would totally imply his Ki is increasing after Kaioshins were removed then never refute the power increasing and make characters only see the Size to laugh off. Then Make "On-par with Pure Boo Goku" to stand there and see his earth getting blown after adnitging both him and Vegeta can't stop Kid Boo's blast. Then on Kaioshin realm wanting to sacrifice universe and let Kid Boo destroy planets so that Kid Boo can't come there and Goku and Vegeta can make their plan. Yes, they both would totally need a STRATEGY to beat a powered down Boo. Old Kaioshin would say "since this boo has weakened you both should also fuse" makes so much sense and old Kaioshin would totally call out goku for not fusing to beat the Boo which supposedly powered down to the point SSJ3 Goku can beat him. Also, Goku himseld admitted that potara was better and he should have used them and not try to take Boo on alone but he did due to Saiyan pride. Vegeta who thought he can kill Kid Boo and did Jan-Ken said he will be killed in an instant if he fought boo and he was stronger than he earlier thought. Goku would totally ditch Direct solution over Risky one and say that Genki Dama not working would doom the Universe. Goku would totally call Satan saviour over his son who can alone stomp Boo. He also said that without Satan and Fat Boo's help, THEY and EVERYONE ELSE would have been KILLED. When Vegeta asked for Solutions to Counter Kid Boo's potential Return, he said They will train to not lose in one-on-one. Goku would totally be excited to fight a far weaker opponent than one who lives with him despite The opponent not being experienced in fighting and having no tricks like absorptions.

Toriyama never makes smallest looking characters the Strongest like Final form Freeza, Arale, Zeno, etc. Aren't strongest or anything.

You are totally right. But you still haven't provided me proof of Kid Boo's ki going down from Buff Boo. Even though they keep mentioning slightest change in Ki, suddenly they are only mocking size, but size means power right?
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Re: Pure Boo was definitely Stronger than Gohan

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:13 am

In his dreams, he's stronger. Goku wanted none of Super Boo but all of Pure Boo to himself.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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