Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

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Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:26 am

Even after another year in the ROSAT, Vegeta only managed to reach somewhere over half of FPSSJ Goku's strength despite knowing Goku's method of training and having several months to think & improve upon it. Why exactly is that? Did Goku unintentionally cut morale so much after his declaration that he needn't another year in the ROSAT because Cell was just too much to beat with more training, that everyone didn't reach for the greatest strength gains that they could achieve?
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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:45 am

Goku’s point is that if you put your body and mind in too harsh conditions for an extended period of time, they will start get weaker instead of stronger. Vegeta is always more tense than Goku, which makes him not as strong as he could if he get some good rest. That explains why Goku’s method is more efficient.

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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't think you can actually harm someone else's training by speaking about your own gains and what your next step will be, well maybe you can but Goku's words could never. I agree with Hugo Boss that Goku found a better way to improve himself.
Vegeta just failed to surpass the SS that surpassed the SS (lol, they really talked like that in the show), it looks like Goku understood that certain road was already at it's max, and took another one. Vegeta kept on going on the same road, and Trunks after realising he wasn't the prodigy he thought he was after Perfect Cell knocked some sense into him, followed his steps and both got nowhere.

The rest of the fighterZ were already out of their league anyway,

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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by Cabba » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:33 pm

Goku sabotaged himself as well...
In reality what happened is the story required gokus power to be nerfed and by extension vegetas and trunks in order to make this passing of the torch troop possible.

This forced event always bothered me about the cell arc, I'm glad akira realized gohan was not cut out to be the main character/hero

The passing of the torch troope is very american and common in comics, i guess thats why gohan is so popular in NA. Whatever the case I'm glad dragon ball strayed away from this western trend.

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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by OhHiRenan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:07 pm

Everyone sabotaged themselves by training alone. Goku only needed to train nine months with Gohan to basically eclipse everyone but Cell and his son. Dragon Ball doesn't always make it a point, but it's fairly consistent that characters tend to get a lot stronger when they aren't training alone. I think the only real exception to this (that involve training and not just power-ups) would be Goku abusing Zenkais on the way to Namek.

Goku also knows how to train better than just about any other character in the series. Granted, that's because we know specifically how he trains, but other characters don't seem to train all that well: Piccolo pretty much just mediates; Vegeta learned literally nothing from the Cell arc, constantly pushing himself; and Gohan doesn't train more often than not. Goku understand the importance of taking a break, training with others, and light work-outs. I don't think we'd see him jogging on Kaio's planet otherwise. It's not a physical activity that screams "yes, Goku is getting stronger by training," but it's one that's grounded in real life that at least shows us that Goku takes care of his body in little, realistic, ways too— not just in the big, bombastic Dragon Ball specific ways.
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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by BWri » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:36 am

OhHiRenan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:07 pm
Everyone sabotaged themselves by training alone. Goku only needed to train nine months with Gohan to basically eclipse everyone but Cell and his son. Dragon Ball doesn't always make it a point, but it's fairly consistent that characters tend to get a lot stronger when they aren't training alone. I think the only real exception to this (that involve training and not just power-ups) would be Goku abusing Zenkais on the way to Namek.
Great point. From Goku training with Krillin under Roshi, to the Earthlings training with Korin then Kami, to Goku training with Kaio, Bubbles, and Gregory followed by the Earthlings, to Piccolo training with Goku and Gohan, to Vegeta training with Whis then Whis and Goku (and sometimes sparring with Beerus). Only person who breaks this mold is #17 and maybe Jiren and Hit. Even Frieza trained with Tagoma even though I still don't think shooting at a target dummy should be as useful as it was for growing strength.
Goku also knows how to train better than just about any other character in the series.
I agree.
Granted, that's because we know specifically how he trains, but other characters don't seem to train all that well:
I don't agree. I'll tell you why below.
Piccolo pretty much just mediates; Vegeta learned literally nothing from the Cell arc, constantly pushing himself; and Gohan doesn't train more often than not. Goku understand the importance of taking a break, training with others, and light work-outs. I don't think we'd see him jogging on Kaio's planet otherwise. It's not a physical activity that screams "yes, Goku is getting stronger by training," but it's one that's grounded in real life that at least shows us that Goku takes care of his body in little, realistic, ways too— not just in the big, bombastic Dragon Ball specific ways.
The point about Goku rings true, but the others only seem to make no progress because of the plot or rather, lack of plot -- specifically for them. If it wasn't plot based progression, then realistically characters like Piccolo and Tien would know Kaioken. Tien at the very least. And if characters like Piccolo, #18, Krillin, and Master Roshi can make such great gains offscreen when the plot calls for it, but barely make any changes in 7 years or in Roshi's case, 20 years then you know you're dealing with plot based shenanigans.

Goku's unique brand of Saiyan physiology combined with his background in spirituality based martial arts practice along with his otherworldly grasp of martial arts and overall approach to fighting makes him the best, most complete fighter in the show, hands down. At this point, that can't be argued. Others are getting by on potential, or the fact that they are simply strong and that's that (Jiren). But even so, those lessons that so many of the Earthlings learned long ago are more relevant now than ever. Realistically, UI is the same as what Kami and Popo taught Kid Goku and so all the Earthlings and Piccolo would have some facet of it in the way they fight. And realistically, to even move so far beyond light speed your body would have to be able to move and react faster than thought and on its own, because the brain simply wouldn't be able to keep up. But beyond that, now spirit control is a big deal, which essentially Piccolo and Tien specialize in. You're telling me these prodigies couldn't figure out how to advance their techniques. You're telling me a genius like Tien, who is a copy master just like Goku, can't figure out IT or Kaioken after seeing it so many times? And you're telling me he hasn't advanced his techniques in over 10 years or learned new ways to use his spirit?

And that's just my problem with the downplay of the Earthlings and Piccolo. These guys are prodigies. They always have been. Vegeta too. They are only so ineffective with their training because the author wants them to be ... for reasons, until suddenly he wants them to be relevant again. Piccolo is still comparable to Super Saiyan forms, even after Goku and Vegeta's god training. That's insane. His training must be effective if he can do that, but it doesn't even matter, because it's plot based anyway. There is no logic to any of this other than Goku and Vegeta = strong, Piccolo = much weaker, and Earthlings = much much weaker. Doesn't matter how much training anyone does or the type of training they do.
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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by OhHiRenan » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:50 am

They are only so ineffective with their training because the author wants them to be
Well, obviously. Everything that happens in any story happens because the author wants those things to happen, Dragon Ball is no different. It's also important to analyze characters by what they actually do and accomplish in the text, not based off they "should" or "could" "realistically do."
If it wasn't plot based progression, then realistically characters like Piccolo and Tien would know Kaioken.
Or maybe the Kaioken has more worth and value as a technique only Goku can do. Kaio can't even do it. Piccolo and Tenshinhan coming back from Kaio with Kaioken would just cheapen it. I also don't really need to see Kaioken anymore. Toriyama rang as much juice out of it as it could. Modern DB's habit of regurgitating everyone's familiar techniques is obnoxious.
Realistically, UI is the same as what Kami and Popo taught Kid Goku and so all the Earthlings and Piccolo would have some facet of it in the way they fight.
Definitely agree with you there that Ultra Instinct is rooted in God and Popo's philosophies, but it's the Kaioken principle for me. I don't see value in anyone other than Goku getting Ultra Instinct— at least as far as the supporting cast goes.
You're telling me these prodigies couldn't figure out how to advance their techniques.
They can, and I hope to see it, but I've been hoping for characters like Piccolo and Tenshinhan to advance their techniques since I was a kid. Even in the original series, we don't see Piccolo train meaningfully on-screen outside of training Gohan, and Tenshinhan basically crippled himself worse than any other martial artist in the series by rejecting Kame Sen'nin's offer to train with him. It makes sense and Ten's rejection is 100% in-character & the way things should have played out in that moment, but all we see of Ten's personal training in the manga are a couple of panels of him chilling with Chaozu.
You're telling me a genius like Tien, who is a copy master just like Goku, can't figure out IT or Kaioken after seeing it so many times?
I unfortunately am, because that's what the text seems to indicate. I agree with you here that Tenshinhan should have ultimately copied more techniques than he did, but also not two of Goku's signature techniques. Tenshinhan's one of my favorites characters and it'd be great if he were more relevant, but I just don't see that happening without it feeling incredibly forced at this point.
And you're telling me he hasn't advanced his techniques in over 10 years or learned new ways to use his spirit?
Logically he should have, but we both saw what happened to him in the Tournament of Power.

I get where you're coming from, but my point is that we just don't see the characters who aren't Goku or Vegeta train meaningfully anymore, and we haven't since the Saiyan arc. We don't even see Trunks train with Vegeta in the RoSaT (in the manga at least,) and Gohan's training with Goku, while framed really well, is an exception, not the rule.

This isn't a problem exclusive to modern Dragon Ball, it's an issue that's rooted in the original manga and it sucks, but I don't expect Dragon Ball Super to be able to course correct this given its history with how it handles the cast.

But, yeah, I'm with you to an extent, I wish characters like Tenshinhan and Piccolo could be more relevant, but even Toriyama stopped caring about making training a part of the story.
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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by omegacwa » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:48 am

I think Vegeta and Trunks strength after their second trip into the room of spirit and time is downplayed greatly. There really isn't any way to even know how strong they were.

Before his second trip Vegeta was potentially able to kill Perfect Cell with a "perfect" final flash, as in one that hit him dead on and completely engulfed him.

His strength definitely went up after his second trip. We never get to see him fight cell again, and he and Trunks were the only ones capable of fighting the Cell Jrs.

Against Super Perfect Cell he didn't stand a chance, but no one did except Gohan. It is worth noting that in base form he was able to hit cell with a strong enough attack to buckle him and allow Gohan to get the upper hand.

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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by Lionel » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:20 pm

Goku was able to capitalise on his son's amazing potential while he trained. Vegeta's pride and inkling for going at things alone disinclined him from working with anyone else to make the most of the regimen.

What might have been a better scenario to ponder on was the possibility of Trunks working alongside Piccolo in the room. Both fighters never seemed particularly close to one another but they did have a mutual goal in protecting the planet from Cell. More importantly, they did have a common bond in the form of Gohan whom they could have used to try and relate to one another. Considering Piccolo's instructive fathership-esque role in the Saiyan arc and how Gohan assumed a somewhat similar role with Trunks (the older being more of a brother), it's almost like the Namekian could represent a metaphysical forefather bonded in the training passed down and connections to Goku's son helping to shape them into the people they became.

This is a bit of side-note but I wish Tenshinhan and Krillin could have been given the possibility to enter in the ROSAT. Inadequate results or not, both of them were still career martial artists at that point driven to push their limits and become even stronger.

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Re: Did Goku Unintentionally Sabotage The Strength Gains Of The Z Senshi Against Cell?

Post by BWri » Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:34 pm

Sorry for the late response. Please, tag me at least once next time so I know if you've responded :thumbup: .
OhHiRenan wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:50 am
They are only so ineffective with their training because the author wants them to be
Well, obviously. Everything that happens in any story happens because the author wants those things to happen, Dragon Ball is no different. It's also important to analyze characters by what they actually do and accomplish in the text, not based off they "should" or "could" "realistically do."
See, that's a tough one. I see even with your responses that you agree, it's hard to quantify in-universe why these guys are so stagnant. Even your responses to the why use your out of universe preferences. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, it's just that with the way the story is written, it's difficult not to consider a lack of author interest instead of in-universe characterization when looking at how each character progresses.
Or maybe the Kaioken has more worth and value as a technique only Goku can do. Kaio can't even do it. Piccolo and Tenshinhan coming back from Kaio with Kaioken would just cheapen it. I also don't really need to see Kaioken anymore. Toriyama rang as much juice out of it as it could. Modern DB's habit of regurgitating everyone's familiar techniques is obnoxious.
Just going to point out that this is an out of universe reason before I address it. But in-universe, let's say that Goku is the only one that could figure it out and master it. That's fine. But why wouldn't Tien, who trained with Kaio for far longer learn as much as he could of the technique? Even an unpolished version is far better than nothing and with Tien's brilliant mind, he could do something fantastic with it, branching off in ways that even Goku wouldn't have thought of. And maybe he already does that, with the way the Neo Tri-Beam seems to work, but nothing has officially been said. I also find it hard to believe that Tien would not have been able to master the Kaioken, especially with an undead body.
Definitely agree with you there that Ultra Instinct is rooted in God and Popo's philosophies, but it's the Kaioken principle for me. I don't see value in anyone other than Goku getting Ultra Instinct— at least as far as the supporting cast goes.
Also out of universe, but I'm interested in this line of thinking. Personally, I think it (KK) has the most use for the Earth cast. Much more than Goku. It actually annoyed me when Goku brought it back because he didn't even need it, but SSBKK ultimately proved to be too cool visually for me to stay upset with. But the reason I disagree with you, is that Goku made the KK obsolete years ago because he has several progressively more powerful transformations with no drawbacks. He should have never had to use it again, but characters without transformations can be greatly enhanced by it and made for relevant power wise for the battles. DB could actually have a supporting cast that's useful in the battles. Honestly, it's all a character like Piccolo would need to be just below the top tier, where he belongs. And it's super logical. I think Piccolo would eventually figure out that he needs it somewhere after the Cell, Buu, or U6 tournament arcs and realistically he'd master it no problem. He'd get more mileage out of the technique than anyone before him. I feel similarly with Tien, but Tien realistically would have developed more of a relationship with Kaio than Goku or Piccolo.

I totally went on a diatribe about KK when you were talking about UI. I'll just say for UI, there's way more precedent for the Earthlings to learn it over someone like Vegeta, but of course, they'd be last in line for the writer and most readers. I don't need the Earthlings or anyone else to learn it, I'm just saying that realistically, they all already know it if they are really moving as fast as most of us think they are.
You're telling me these prodigies couldn't figure out how to advance their techniques.
They can, and I hope to see it, but I've been hoping for characters like Piccolo and Tenshinhan to advance their techniques since I was a kid. Even in the original series, we don't see Piccolo train meaningfully on-screen outside of training Gohan, and Tenshinhan basically crippled himself worse than any other martial artist in the series by rejecting Kame Sen'nin's offer to train with him. It makes sense and Ten's rejection is 100% in-character & the way things should have played out in that moment, but all we see of Ten's personal training in the manga are a couple of panels of him chilling with Chaozu.
I don't think refusing Roshi's training did anything to cripple Tien. I think it's a big stretch to say that. Sure, he missed out on some of Roshi's fundamentals, but really, that's all Roshi had was fundamentals and a few techniques. Tien was already well past that. There was very little Roshi could realistically teach him. Roshi could do a lot with Vegeta, Goten, and Young Trunks for instance, but since Shen and Roshi are but branches or the same tree, there's not a helluva lot Tien would have gained with him. Tien then went on to train with every other master Goku did other than Whis and made vastly superior progress to the Saiyan every single time doing the same training. If anything, in-universe, Tien has a track record of training in a really effective way. His only problem is he's not the MC or in-universe because he's not a Saiyan and he's always a step behind Goku when it comes to masters.

I've always been a fan of the anime so I always have fond memories of watching Tien and Piccolo train often and in creative ways. Most of this isn't present in the manga, I presume? But what we do know of Piccolo, is that when both he and Goku kinda settled on being the strongest on the planet, only Piccolo had developed a new technique in that time. Shows me that Piccolo is better at advancing himself than Goku in times of peace if we go with in-universe examples. Not really, but it at least shows us that Piccolo is always thinking of ways to advance himself which continues into the Cell-Android arc with Hellzone-Grenade/Gekiretsu Kodan and Light Grenade. Also all that cool after-image stuff he was doing.
You're telling me a genius like Tien, who is a copy master just like Goku, can't figure out IT or Kaioken after seeing it so many times?
I unfortunately am, because that's what the text seems to indicate. I agree with you here that Tenshinhan should have ultimately copied more techniques than he did, but also not two of Goku's signature techniques. Tenshinhan's one of my favorites characters and it'd be great if he were more relevant, but I just don't see that happening without it feeling incredibly forced at this point.

I don't think so. Limits in DB don't really exist and with this new emphasis on spirit control, it would be a great time to put the spotlight back on the Earthlings. True, they have missed every possible opportunity to make these guys relevant, but it's never too late. Hell, we've already had Roshi vs. Jiren. Why not?
And you're telling me he hasn't advanced his techniques in over 10 years or learned new ways to use his spirit?
Logically he should have, but we both saw what happened to him in the Tournament of Power.
Yeah. He did poorly in both the anime and manga. I mean, can he at least figure out how to do multi-form without splitting his power?
I get where you're coming from, but my point is that we just don't see the characters who aren't Goku or Vegeta train meaningfully anymore, and we haven't since the Saiyan arc. We don't even see Trunks train with Vegeta in the RoSaT (in the manga at least,) and Gohan's training with Goku, while framed really well, is an exception, not the rule.

But that can't be true for the anime. Because off-screen and only in a few months (days for Krillin), Roshi, Piccolo, Krillin, and probably #18 too all got massive power boosts. They must be doing something right in their training to make such gains in such a short period. I mean, let's call a spade a spade, it is indeed bad writing, but in-universe it's like once these guys give a damn, they can do whatever they want. In all seriousness though, Piccolo's training is solid, because he always gains power. He's just not gaining power faster than the plot. That's always been his problem, he's not a Saiyan and Saiyan's have been getting more and more ridiculous. It's not his training, it's his biology. But the Super anime is showing us that Namekians and even other alien races are still relevant.

This isn't a problem exclusive to modern Dragon Ball, it's an issue that's rooted in the original manga and it sucks, but I don't expect Dragon Ball Super to be able to course correct this given its history with how it handles the cast.
The anime is trying it's best and doing a decent job. The manga has moments too. I think the anime staff wants to do more with other characters at this point. But every time they set something up, the outline doesn't back them up. Krillin's mini arc in the anime leads me to believe this.
But, yeah, I'm with you to an extent, I wish characters like Tenshinhan and Piccolo could be more relevant, but even Toriyama stopped caring about making training a part of the story.
Hey, that's my whole point. That's the entire problem. When you look at the history of Tien and Piccolo then see how they ended up, narratively something doesn't seem right. Such brilliant fighters lost all their spark and creativity and barely make any progress with their respective styles and techniques. For me, there is no satisfying in-universe explanation to define this. There isn't an explanation at all really, nothing explicit anyway.
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