Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

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Cabba
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Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Cabba » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:35 pm

Saiyans where surprised by the earthlings max power ki control yet both nappa and vegeta increased their power in battle, any explanations for this?

NAPPA - 4000
  • His final attack made gokuh (8000) respond with a kamehameha, both attacks nullify each other
This raises two questions, if his final attack was only 4000:
  • Why woulnt goku just kick/punch the attack to deviate it?
  • Why did it nullify goku's kamehameha (8000)?
I estimate nappas final attack to be anywhere between 7000-8000 based on this event or was it just a plot hole or omission?

VEGETA - 18.000
  • He powers up to show gokuh his full power.
Why did he do this if he supposedly at this time didn't know how to control his ki freely?
  • When he uses his Gyarikku Hō attack gokuh needs to use the kaiokenx4 to overpower him
This puts Vegetas final attack at 24.000 minimum right?

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:40 pm

Nah, Raditz was still surprised when Goku and Piccolo got a power boost while charging their attacks. Meaning, Vegeta and Nappa shouldn't know better.
Their final attacks were simply strong attacks that needed to be repelled with enough force. They could still cause severe damage.

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Cabba » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:16 pm

wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:40 pm
Nah, Raditz was still surprised when Goku and Piccolo got a power boost while charging their attacks. Meaning, Vegeta and Nappa shouldn't know better.
Right... that's why I'm asking
If vegeta's attack was "only" 18k then goku's kaiokenx3 (24k) should have sufficed to overpower him instead of kaiokenx4 (32k)
At kaiokenx3 both attacks were evenly matched

Raditz was able to block a 924 attack with his hand (77% of 1.2k)
Nappa was able to punch a 2.8k attack (70% of 4k)

Yet gokuh coulnt deflect or block a 4k attack (50% of 8k)? whats more how could a 4k attack nullify a 8k attack?

Doesn't make sense, either plot hole or both their attacks punched above their weight

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by MainJPW » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:40 pm

Goku flat out admits that Nappa is tough and that the fight would take forever.

Image

There's a good chance that the guidebook numbers are just BS after all and that Nappa is closer to 8K than he is to 4K. Vegeta saw how high Goku's power level was and still had Nappa fight him anyway suggesting that the gap between them ain't that big.

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by omegacwa » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:38 am

I always assumed Nappa at full power was around 8,000. Which is why the whole "over 8,000!" was such a big deal. Nappa and Vegeta were considered Elite Level Saiyans, so finding another with a power level in the same ballpark as theirs, plus his massive jump from the fight with Raditz, is why they were so surprised.

If you take Kaio Ken out of the picture I'm not sure how Goku and Nappa would have gone, and no doubt Vegeta would have straight up murdered Goku.

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:45 pm

I think we shouldn't discount the notion of Goku simply conserving his energy. He was facing off against two opponents that were the strongest he had ever seen at that point so its not out of the question that Goku would hold back his power output to ensure he could keep fighting. Its only logical when Goku did not know Nappa & Vegeta's fighting style or what they were capable of in the event that they were pushed or desperate.
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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Fionordequester » Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:00 am

wolflonnie wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:40 pm
Right... that's why I'm asking
If vegeta's attack was "only" 18k then goku's kaiokenx3 (24k) should have sufficed to overpower him instead of kaiokenx4 (32k)
At kaiokenx3 both attacks were evenly matched
That actually makes sense, in my head at least. Goku was artificially boosting his power with the Kaioken; a technique that rips his body apart with every second he spends in it. Any lapse in concentration will kill him outright.

His attention is divided two ways, between maintaining the Kaioken & maintaining the Kamehameha. Vegeta, however, is only using his natural strength. That's why his beam matched Goku's.
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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by MainJPW » Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:26 am

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:45 pm
I think we shouldn't discount the notion of Goku simply conserving his energy. He was facing off against two opponents that were the strongest he had ever seen at that point so its not out of the question that Goku would hold back his power output to ensure he could keep fighting. Its only logical when Goku did not know Nappa & Vegeta's fighting style or what they were capable of in the event that they were pushed or desperate.
But Goku said the fight would take all day and was sweating pretty heavily after canceling out that blast. Spending the day fighting Nappa would cost him a lot of energy regardless. Just seems to me like Nappa was on the same level.

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:34 pm

MainJPW wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:26 am
But Goku said the fight would take all day and was sweating pretty heavily after canceling out that blast. Spending the day fighting Nappa would cost him a lot of energy regardless. Just seems to me like Nappa was on the same level.
That's exactly why Goku was shown stressed on panel, he was suppressing himself so as not to use more energy than he needed...thus he was conserving his energy.
Goku more than likely could've just let loose and gradually overcome Nappa's toughness but that would end up expending energy and Goku still had no idea where exactly Vegeta stood in power & ability. If Goku's base lost power then the Kaio-ken would also have less power, that is why Goku was deciding that he should use it on Nappa while he was still fresh. Goku was simply being strategic, he had to be given that several of his allies were dead with only two barely alive.
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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Tsufuru » Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:19 pm

either the numbers given are wrong for nappa and vegeta or they have atacks that release more ki unlike raditz.

it doesnt make sense otherwise.

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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Kaboom » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:01 pm

This thread managed to slip by me at first, but I still want to add my two hefty cents.

I don't think power amplification is quite so cut-and-dry, being strictly either "can amp your attacks a lot" or "can't amp your attacks at all." It makes sense to me that, when you really put your full effort into launching a big attack, it'll naturally have extra strength behind it that a normal attack wouldn't. Otherwise there'd be little to nothing separating someone's normal ki blasts from their "ultimate attacks" in the first place, right?

What separated the Earthlings from the average space-fighter is not just that they could amplify their ki at all, but that they could do it freely at will and to such large degrees. When Raditz fought Goku and Piccolo, the way they could easily focus all their ki into a single point and amp it up several times above their baseline power was unheard of.

But when it comes to Nappa and Vegeta, I think it's reasonable that their big signature attacks were a little bit stronger than their own baseline. Also, remember that Toriyama's told us Saiyans can actually grow stronger during a battle to match their opponent's strength if they can manage to hold their own and keep fighting. So even though Nappa started at 4,000, by the time his fight with Goku ended his power may have surged to more like 6,000. Then maybe his ultimate-attack mouth blast on top of that could have been quite close to Goku's 8,000. But even if you don't adopt the "Nappa was gradually growing stronger" idea, Goku still countered that attack with a quick, reactionary Kamehameha that he didn't take any time to charge. So there's still quite a difference of ability evident between them either way.

It's basically the same deal with Vegeta, although there's other points to consider. First, the type of "powering up" that he and Nappa did isn't the same as the Earthlings. It's true, they don't have the ability to freely alter their battle power. So it's not like they're standing around at like 2k and 10k before powering up to their full 4k and 18k, like the Earthlings might do. It's more like they're just flexing, or pumping themselves up to fight. It's more of an effort-level thing. A scouter would still read them at 4k and 18k both before and after.

Second, it doesn't seem like Goku's ki-amping from the Kaio-Ken and his Kamehameha "stack" with each other. Which makes sense, because they're both techniques that do fundamentally the same thing — taking all the user's ki, focusing it, then releasing it in a single big burst. It's just that the Kaio-Ken spreads that burst across the user's body while the Kamehameha releases it outward. So when Goku uses both techniques together, it seems like he's simply using the Kaio-Ken to amp his ki far higher than he normally could, then using the Kamehameha just to put that amped power into beam form.

So if we take the "ultimate attacks naturally amplify your ki a little bit" logic from Nappa and apply it to Vegeta, then yeah, the Gallic Gun probably had a power of around 24,000, somewhat beyond Vegeta's normal 18,000. The same 24,000 power as Goku's KKx3-fueled Kamehameha. So the attacks matched and stalemated until Goku bumped it up to a Kaio-Ken x4 to win.


TL;DR:
- Even without the ability to freely alter your power level, some ki amplification should come naturally from big "ultimate attacks."
- Nappa's power was probably gradually rising as he fought Goku, letting his ultimate attack almost match Goku.
- Goku's Kaio-Ken and Kamehameha techniques function the same way, so they apparently don't "stack," letting his KKx3 KHH match up evenly against Vegeta's moderately-amped Gallic Gun.
- All in all the official numbers work fine, as long as you don't look at the fight only in terms of numbers.
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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:47 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:01 pm
TL;DR:
- Even without the ability to freely alter your power level, some ki amplification should come naturally from big "ultimate attacks."
- Nappa's power was probably gradually rising as he fought Goku, letting his ultimate attack almost match Goku.
- Goku's Kaio-Ken and Kamehameha techniques function the same way, so they apparently don't "stack," letting his KKx3 KHH match up evenly against Vegeta's moderately-amped Gallic Gun.
- All in all the official numbers work fine, as long as you don't look at the fight only in terms of numbers.
Can't forget about the fact that Nappa is just a big, tough bastard and that is often grounds to give 'bonus' power-ups in DB.
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Re: Nappa & Vegeta final attacks power boost?

Post by Akira » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:23 pm

I don't think it was ever stated that they couldn't increase their power, was it? Because I have long thought the same thing, that their ki attacks carried an extra punch that lined up with Goku. Even if Goku didn't have time to charge the Kamehameha, he'd already gotten mad and powered up to "over 8,000", meaning that a basic quick fire Kamehameha without charging would still be around that number.

I think you're right on the money Cabba, Nappa powered up was "around" 8,000 when firing a ki blast, hence the cancellation with Goku's quick fire Kamehameha. You are also right on about Vegeta's Gallick-ho carrying a power around 24,000, matching evenly with a Kaioken x3 powered Kamehameha, and requiring that x4 boost and gamble to overcome.

So, me being on the side of that line of thinking, it still raises the question, "what made the earthlings different?"

Simply put, the training with Mr. Popo and Kami. They were taught by Mr. Popo to sense ki, and by Kami to conserve and manipulate their power to confuse their adversaries. Goku was trained to fight at a lower level and "suppress" his ki, and then ramp it up in an instant when needed. The Saiyans could not mimic THAT aspect. It has nothing to do with not being able to power up, but powering down to conserve and confuse that was the ability and trait unique to the earthlings. (Who by that time had all trained with Mr. Popo and Kami and learned the ability to some extent.)

I think the lines stated were just mis-interpreted by fans to think that only the ability to power up was unique to the earthlings, and that wasn't the case. It was the ability to go way up or way down that was unique to them, and gave the saiyans and by extension, the rest of Freeza's forces such trouble and confusion. Later, on Namek, Ginyu states that he estimated Goku's true power to be around 60,000, given that he could ramp up and down, tricking the scouters used by the Ginyu Force. Recoome, Burter and Jeice were all in the 40,000 range, give or take, Ginyu knew this, so for someone to be able to "ramp up" for a split instant and make quick work of them, they'd have to be around at least 60,000 to be able to do that.

Ginyu wasn't even that surprised to find Goku had a battle power of 90,000 when he used his scouter on him when Goku powered up and revealed himself to them. (Ginyu had a max of 120,000, so he still wasn't too terribly worried) It was when Goku used the Kaioken x2 (Completely mastered and comfortably used by that point) and revealed 180,000 that Ginyu got scared. The unknown factor here is Goku states right then "I can go way high than that in bursts if need be" or something along those lines. (alluding to the training on the way to Namek, and his ability to use a Kaioken x10 in quick bursts, meaning that his ability to ramp up and down made him ideal for mastery of said technique. It also means that Goku could bring the heat of 900,000 in quick bursts if needed) -THAT- often overlooked contextual fact of the situation, is what prompted Ginyu to ask him if he were a Super Saiyan.

So, in closing, I think many of the higher elites of Freeza's forces, and the elite saiyans were capable of "powering up" to some extent, especially when using powered ki blasts. What they were not capable of, was ki suppression and rapid fluctuation of their power like the earthlings had been trained to do.
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