Realization about DBS Broly's Super Saiyan form..

[MechaTrunks]

Being wounded made him unable to stay full power for longer. A fresh Freezer might have had some minutes more of battle in him

As Goku said, Freezer's power started to fall as soon as he reached 100%. His lack of stamina was due to Freezer not having had a good fight once in his life.
The Genkidama made him lose power, like any other injury in the series for any character (Freezer included). I mean, Freezer is also a good example of that: after being cut by his own kienzans he was so weakened he couldn't even fly.

[theherodjl]

It depends on the situation.
While it's true that Vegeta lost his power gradually in his battle against the z-warriors, you have Raditz that went from unstopable beast even when he was just playing to not being able to free himself from a very injured Goku that wasn't even holding him by his tail (so his power got reduced to 1/20th of his maximum in just 1 hit!).

Regarding Freezer, he almost died and his injuries were stated to be bad, so just 1/4th or 1/3rd of his energy counting everything (the Genkidama surely was the biggest hit he took, but there was also the KKx20 where Goku could also inflict a bit of damage, and also all the beating he takes after the Genkidama) seems far too low.

At 1/4 of his strength Freezer would still be in a similar condition than Vegeta at the moment when he turned into an Oozaru (after he made the moon), but without his Oozaru form of course.

Regards!

Saiyans & Freeza aren't the same physically. An injury such as Raditz'(broken ribs & sternum, possibly organ trauma too) doesn't apply to Freeza's anatomy as Freeza's Race are biologically different and can even live without most of their organic matter. Repeated trauma from SSJ Goku's strikes didn't seriously injure Freeza, while Raditz got a life-threatening injury from someone weaker flying into his chest.

As for Freeza, he stated he almost died but his injuries weren't immense. Freeza lost the tip of his tail and was bruised up but considering that Freeza later survived getting blasted by SSJ Goku and then Namek's explosion, I'd say it takes more than the Genki Dama to reduce Freeza's Ki down to below 2/3rds.

[MechaTrunks]

Saiyans & Freeza aren't the same physically. An injury such as Raditz'(broken ribs & sternum, possibly organ trauma too) doesn't apply to Freeza's anatomy as Freeza's Race are biologically different and can even live without most of their organic matter. Repeated trauma from SSJ Goku's strikes didn't seriously injure Freeza, while Raditz got a life-threatening injury from someone weaker flying into his chest.

Gohan wasn't weaker than Raditz, if he had been that hit wouldn't have had the impact it had.
And on the other hand, Nappa was one of the most sturdy characters (in comparison to the strength he had) while being a saiyan, and Vegeta has also comparably high defenses -even if not as much as Nappa-.

As for Freeza, he stated he almost died but his injuries weren't immense. Freeza lost the tip of his tail and was bruised up but considering that Freeza later survived getting blasted by SSJ Goku and then Namek's explosion, I'd say it takes more than the Genki Dama to reduce Freeza's Ki down to below 2/3rds.

Well, he surely seemed much more injured than Raditz if we judge it from how they looked after each one received the attack.
The thing is that Toriyama said it was a 10x increase for Goku in Namek, that Freezer felt himself very injured and he surely knew his anatomy more than any of us and that in the Cell saga it can everything points towards the power of a regular SSJ being in the realm of 3 millions of units.
Everything points towards those numbers.

Regards!

[theherodjl]

Gohan wasn't weaker than Raditz, if he had been that hit wouldn't have had the impact it had.
And on the other hand, Nappa was one of the most sturdy characters (in comparison to the strength he had) while being a saiyan, and Vegeta has also comparably high defenses -even if not as much as Nappa-.

Well, he surely seemed much more injured than Raditz if we judge it from how they looked after each one received the attack.
The thing is that Toriyama said it was a 10x increase for Goku in Namek, that Freezer felt himself very injured and he surely knew his anatomy more than any of us and that in the Cell saga it can everything points towards the power of a regular SSJ being in the realm of 3 millions of units.
Everything points towards those numbers.

Regards!

Gohan was weaker than Raditz, his power level was just over 1300 while Raditz was 1500.
While Nappa was pretty endurant compared to the likes of Raditz, Freeza's durability still craps on it to be able to survive(while missing his legs & arm) getting blasted full force by SSJ Goku and then Namek's explosion.

Yet Raditz was held in place by a severely injured Goku while Freeza maintained in a fight against SSJ Goku until his body got cut in half. Raditz was certainly more injured no matter how things looked.
What Toriyama said was that he felt like Goku was about 10x stronger than what he had been at that point...but he doesn't actually state that it could only be a 10x boost or that the 50x boost has been redacted. Toriyama has still approved of the guides and the power levels presented in them so the numbers in the guides are very much applicable & relevant.

[miguelnuva1]

Point 1: Nappa is weaker than Goku, Goku was smacking him around and then used the Kaio Ken. Vegeta and Goku both say Nappa would have lost to Goku. Going further Goku is 8,000+ and Nappa is 4,000.
Android 18 was used for two reasons to show that the current Andorids were stronger than Trunks thought which means beat a SSJ and to show that Vegeta had powered up as well. Vegeta shocks Trunks with how strong he is then 18 turns it up proving that the warring from the Future holds.

If Nappa is just 4000, how the hell does he matches Goku's speed and physical strength, and tanks his kamehame ha without taking severe damage?
With that stance you are contradicting basically any other fight seen in the series! How can someone with 4000 fight someone with a strength of 8000+ in equal terms?
I'm glad we at least agree on the A18 vs SSJ Vegeta fight. Yes, it's purpose was to show us all of this, but how many people think A18 was much stronger than SSJ Vegeta in terms of brute strength just because the fight is portrayed in a way that clearly favours the android looking cool?
Toriyama's scenarios are never black or white, and that's the best part of Dragon Ball.

Nappa is more durable then the amount of Ki between him and Goku. Goku at 10 is far more durable as a child then an adult with a power level of 5. Toriyama never said a certain power level had no chance against a higher way based on percent. Frieza and Nappa did better against Goku then Zarbon and Dodoria did with Vegeta.Number rules are fan made.

Point 2: Injuries only make you weaker when your already at full power. Cell after fighting Goku had more power in reserve, Gohan after getting his arm broke had power in reserve and Vegeta with a broken arm lasted longer than Trunks against the Androids. Goku blowing his body up with the KaioKen didn't lose power to after Vegeta crushed him.

WHAT? Nopes! I mean, let's use your own examples:

1. Goku gave Cell a senzu bean because, even if Cell never fought Goku with his maximum strength, he had lost a lot of energy!
Heck, Cell even gets surprised at how good the senzu bean are and it's very apparent that he recovers his strength!
2. The first thing Piccolo says after Gohan gets his arm broke is that his power has fallen to HALF what it was. Yes, he then still had some energy in reserve, but that was MUCH LESS than if he didn't had that injury. He only could kill Cell because Vegeta distracted him while he was playing with Gohan.
3. SSJ Vegeta in the A18 fight is a bad example because he was going all out, so even if it were true that he didn't lose power (which is false, the whole fight revolves around Vegeta losing against the android because he's getting weaker and the android isn't) that wouldn't be an example of what you say.
4. Goku blowing and Vegeta what? In the Goku vs Vegeta fight any KK above 2x weakened Goku much more than he could weaken Vegeta while using it.
After the KKx3 Goku is clearly trembling and the next time he fights Vegeta, he needs the KKx4 to surpass him (and that's besides the damage Vegeta took from KKx3 Goku).
After the KKx4 Goku's power is so depleted that even Yajirobee harms him with a pat on the back. Are you sure we're reading the same manga?

I'm going to ignore Cell for a moment. Gohan thought he was at half power, Goku tells him he isn't and he powers up. Vegeta is not the reason Gohan one he just made the opening much bigger. Vegeta with his broken arm does better than Trunks from the time 17 and 18 get serious is what I mean. Goku needed Kaiokenx4 to counter Vegeta's galick gun not because his power dropped. physical damage doesn't necessarly mean your ki decreased.

I'll put you some more examples of what I'm saying:
1. In the SSJ2 Goku vs SSJ2 Majin Vegeta fight, both fighters lost so much energy that Majin Bu could resurrect at maximum strength when they fought. How was that possible if according to you Goku shouldn't have lost even an ounce of strength because he still had the SSJ3 in reserve?
2. While Zarbon was confidently fighting Vegeta, he threw sand in his eye and sucker punched him. When Zarbon got serious he was so weakened after Vegeta's dirty attack that he miserably lost.
3. Raditz was literally playing with Goku and Piccolo, yet Gohan's headbutt left him completely destroyed and with a fraction of his power.

Goku and Vegeta rely on transformations, Frieza doesn't. Goku and Vegeta are also fighting at their max SSJ2 power, Frieza was at half his full power. Same thing with Raditz, Raditz took a deadly blow at full power. Frieza is also far more durable then the saiyans.

Point 3: As said before you can be hurt in Dragonball without your power being effected.

You haven't been able to prove this successfully. In every one of the examples you put, a clear statement about the fighter having lost energy is made.

I provided examples, you don't won't to see them because you believe in your stance.

As for Frieza another thing is when he comes back as Mecha Frieza he doesn't mention that he has he healthy full power back he says he's powered up.

Which is completely logic from his POW: The only aspect he could easily check (his stamina) got a huge boost. Namek Freezer needed to be in his most weakened form to not tire himself unecessarily, and in his Mecha form not only he could stay in his final form but also at a constant max power.
The reason Freezer lost against SSJ Goku (besides the Genkidama) was his lack of stamina, so of course he would considere losing that handicap a big advantage compared to Namek.
Problem is, he was much weaker and unless he trained with this father (which he clearly didn't do) he didn't have a mean to know it.

It would have been mentioned if Goku and Frieza weren't 100% all out and if they weren't then Toriyama is a bad story teller which he isn't.

In fact it's the opposite. Toriyama is such a good story teller because he TELLS you everything but it does it subtly enough that it doesn't break the epicness of the scene.
Freezer clearly mentions that he lost power in Namek at least twice, every single character that receives injuries loses strength which is something that also aplies to Cell, an improved clone of Freezer.
Freezer was clearly not an exception to the rule.

Stamina doesn't mean his KI dropped. Frieza reached his 100% power but due to his injuries he couldn't fight at 100% anywhere near as long as he could if he was healthy.

Also Toriyama said he drew SSJ Goku is 10x what Goku had been up to that point could mean a couple things. Is he saying 10x based or 10x Goku with his Kaioken.

He says Goku was not 50x, but 10x what it was at the time. If the 50x is speaking of his base state, the 10x also has to be the same thing.
Furthermore, 10 times his KKx20 would be a 200x, which would be like what, 5 times 100% uninjured Freezer?
And the KK was a technique, not Goku's own power.

If Toriyama wanted SSJ to be 10x he would have mentioned in several times in the series, all he is saying is to him 50x is a big number. And finally sense Toriyama doesn't like using numbers anyway a Goku who was 10x stronger to him could still have a 50x increase in power level.

What? Toriyama never mentions any multiplier for any single SSJ form. Why can the SSJ be a 50x when it makes no sense and it's never stated in the manga even once that the multiplier was a 50x, but then it can't be a 10x when it's coherent with the rest of the series (injuries make you lose strenght, as I've proved) and it's what the author is telling you?
And no, a 10x can't be a 50x because he clearly adresses the 50x multiplier saying that it wasn't 50x.
I mean, how can you spin Toriyama's words from "50x was too high, I drew those scenes with a 10x multiplier on mind" into "50x was too high, I drew those scenes with a 10x multiplier on mind that is actually a 50x because I'm not using numbers anymore"?

I understand that you would like the series more if it was like in your headcanon, but it would be a much worse series than it currently is, believe me.

Regards!

What the hell does that last part even mean I would like the series more? I like DBZ fine the way it is, you seem to interject your feelings on to others. It seems neither of us is going to change the other's mind on this so I wish you well and agree to disagree on friendly terms.

Toriyama can draw SSJ as 10x in his head but the fact is several official guides have come out and said 50x and he never contradicted it. His official stance is to him it seemed like a 10x increase not that it wasn't 50x.

[MechaTrunks]

Gohan was weaker than Raditz, his power level was just over 1300 while Raditz was 1500.

Raditz 1500 was not in the manga
Raditz was at around 1200, as stated by Nappa. A bit higher than a Saibaman, but every single attack above 1300 damaged him badly clearly implying that he was clearly below that number.

While Nappa was pretty endurant compared to the likes of Raditz, Freeza's durability still craps on it to be able to survive(while missing his legs & arm) getting blasted full force by SSJ Goku and then Namek's explosion.

Yes, and I agree on that. That's why Freezer, despite tanking a Genkidama that already accounted for him only using half his strength still had 1/3-1/4 of his power after having tanked it without any power up.

I mean, as sturdy as Nappa was, a 16.000+ Goku completely broke him in 1 hit. That means that Nappa could thank hits 20-30% above his offensive capabilities. What Freezer tanked is the equivalent of Nappa tanking a KKx3 hit at the very least (and he couldn't tank even a KKx2).

It's Freezer that tells us that his injuries have been bad and that he was almost killed. Of course facts have more weihgt than words and that's why despite Freezer speaking of being almost killed I still have him conserve 1/4 of his strength when he reaches peak 100% (Vegeta had what, 1/1000th of his max strength when he ran away form the earth? And Raditz was left at what, 1/20th of his max strenght?).

Yet Raditz was held in place by a severely injured Goku while Freeza maintained in a fight against SSJ Goku until his body got cut in half. Raditz was certainly more injured no matter how things looked.

And that's why your argument about Freezer not looking very injured and just having a bit of his tail cut and some bruises is invalid.
Injuries in Dragon Ball aren't explicitly drawn (yes, you see some broken arms here and there, but that's it).

We know Raditz was very injured because an injured Goku could restrain him, even when he looked completely alright.
In the same way, we know that Freezer had lost strength, and that the SSJ is in the 3 million ballpark of power thanks to concrete data given in the Cell saga.
And if that wasn't enough, we have the author of the series saying that he drew that fight in Namek with a 10x mulitplier on mind for SSJ Goku.

What Toriyama said was that he felt like Goku was about 10x stronger than what he had been at that point...but he doesn't actually state that it could only be a 10x boost or that the 50x boost has been redacted.

In plain words what he said is "what most readers understood was that the SSJ was 50x stronger, but I drew it with a 10x boost on mind".
If he drew those scenes with a 10x boost on mind, that means that the Freezer that faced Goku, at 100%, was 10x base Goku as well.

Toriyama has still approved of the guides and the power levels presented in them so the numbers in the guides are very much applicable & relevant.

Toriyama was paid to write an intro to the guides, it doesn't mean he even read them before they were published.
The fact that he wanted to adress that mistake so badly proves this.

Toriyama never said a certain power level had no chance against a higher way based on percent. Frieza and Nappa did better against Goku then Zarbon and Dodoria did with Vegeta.Number rules are fan made.

Toriyama didn't say "from 10% onwards it will be a stomp" but any time a 10-15% difference of strength in favour of a character was stated, it happened.
And I don't see Napa nor Freezer contradicting that in any way.

Goku and Vegeta rely on transformations, Frieza doesn't.

So for whatever reasons, transformations doesn't count? And which transformation did Cell hide when Goku gave him the senzu?
If we start moving the goalposts the debate won't progress!

Gohan thought he was at half power, Goku tells him he isn't and he powers up.

Piccolo also confirms that Gohan has lost a lot of power, it's not just Gohan's impresion, and Goku never contradicted that.
The "power up" you say is just Gohan using everything he's got into one single attack (which is not powering up, it's simply the difference between a random ki blast and one you pour all your strength into).

Vegeta with his broken arm does better than Trunks from the time 17 and 18 get serious is what I mean.

Trunks had already taken a blow from 17 who was much stronger than 18 before confronting her, and like with Raditz and Gohan, we don't know how it could've affected him.
In any way, that's a fight where the focus is Vegeta losing his power, and you somehow use it as an example of Vegeta not losing his power!

And think about it, you're telling me that having one arm broken had no impact on Vegeta but then he suddenly lost all his strength after his second arm is broken?
A pretty bit convenient for you, don't you think?

Goku needed Kaiokenx4 to counter Vegeta's galick gun not because his power dropped. physical damage doesn't necessarly mean your ki decreased.

KKx3 Goku completely overpowered Vegeta and the next time he needed the KKx4 just to earn a much smaller win (Vegeta didn't took significant damage from the KKx4 kamehame).
And the KKx3 and KKx4 scenes are one just after the other, so it's pretty obvious that Goku was weakened.

I provided examples, you don't won't to see them because you believe in your stance.

I don't see to them because you're contradicting the manga.

Stamina doesn't mean his KI dropped. Frieza reached his 100% power but due to his injuries he couldn't fight at 100% anywhere near as long as he could if he was healthy.

Which is something that has never been seen in the series. Vegeta in the earth didn't have any stamina problem when he was damaged. In fact, there's not a single character that has stamina problems because of his injuries.

And the manga is directly telling you the reason Freezer loses power:

Chapter: 320 (DBZ 126), P11.1-3
Context: with 5 minutes (ha!) before Namek explodes
Freeza: “In that case, I’ll show you my 100% power! There’s no way you can defeat me! Prepare yourself!”
Goku: “Why are you using your full power now?...I know: it’s because when you use all of your power, your body itself can’t handle it.”

Chapter: 325 (DBZ 131), P8.2-5
Context: after Goku and full-power Freeza have fought for a while
Goku: “I quit. [ ] As a backlash from you using your 100% power, you’ve passed your peak, and your ki is steadily dropping…I’m starting to think that there’s no point in fighting any more than this…”

I mean, what's here to discuss?

What the hell does that last part even mean I would like the series more? I like DBZ fine the way it is, you seem to interject your feelings on to others.

You are the one that said that if I were right Toriyama would be a bad writter and that the series wouldn't be as epic.

Regards!
PS: You didn't adress Cell taking a senzu bean in your whole message. Why did he do that if he didn't lose any power?

[Hulk10]

I realize that since Broly didn't transform into a Super Saiyan when he went berserk it seems that his Super Saiyan form is unlikely to be unlocked by anger. Though its possible.

There are two tipes of anger in Dragon Ball: simple, traditional anger which every villian has (no one can't say Vegeta wasn't angry when Goku surpassed him with the KKx3 and decided he would blow up the entire planet) and then there's that anger towards not just the enemy but also oneself (impotence) which is the one that turns you into a SSJ (Vegeta got it when he realized he had reached his limits without being a SSJ and that Goku and that other unknown nobody that was Trunks for him managed to reach the SSJ form).

Broly has a lot of both kinds of anger, but for him it still works like for the rest of the regular saiyans:

To unlock the SSJ he still had to have an "impotence" rage boost when he was at his peak of the base state.
From what we know, the only moment in his life where this could have happened was when he was a kid, he befriended that beast from his planet and his father attacked the beast breaking their friendship.
But Broly was a kid, he was badly trained and he probably wasn't at the limit of his base state when the rage boost happened.

In the movie it's made pretty obvious that Broly has reached his base state limit and that his power could no longuer increase, and it's at that moment that Freezer kills his father, triggering the kind of rage boost that unlocks the SSJ forms on him.

Broly should have a 50x ssj form and a 500x ssj + ikari form.

The SSJ aren't fixed multipliers, and seeing his performance in the fight compared to his base state (and his complete lack of training) it's obvious that the SSJ forms had very limited multipliers for him (1,5-3x in his SSJ form and 4-5x his base state in his ikari form at best).

Regards!

Pretty sure that Toriyama said that the 'need for more power' requirement for the SSJ was not true.

[MechaTrunks]

Pretty sure that Toriyama said that the 'need for more power' requirement for the SSJ was not true.

Well, I don't know if Toriyama changed his mind afterwards but in the original manga it's made pretty clear that you have to have trained and increased your strength besides having the rage boost.
Beisdes Gohan's multiple rage boosts without turning into a SSJ when he was a kid, there's also that statement (also from Gohan) when Goten tells him he will turn into a SSJ (he tells him that this is imposbile unless he trains a lot and has a rage attack, meaning that both conditions have to be met).

Could you link that interview please? It will be interesting to hear what Toriyama thinks (though I'm pretty convinced that the manga was very clear in this regard, that only applied to regular saiyans and Broly was a special case so if Toriyama addressed this for Broly then we have to take his word!).

Regards!

[Hulk10]

Pretty sure that Toriyama said that the 'need for more power' requirement for the SSJ was not true.

Well, I don't know if Toriyama changed his mind afterwards but in the original manga it's made pretty clear that you have to have trained and increased your strength besides having the rage boost.
Beisdes Gohan's multiple rage boosts without turning into a SSJ when he was a kid, there's also that statement (also from Gohan) when Goten tells him he will turn into a SSJ (he tells him that this is imposbile unless he trains a lot and has a rage attack, meaning that both conditions have to be met).

Could you link that interview please? It will be interesting to hear what Toriyama thinks (though I'm pretty convinced that the manga was very clear in this regard, that only applied to regular saiyans and Broly was a special case so if Toriyama addressed this for Broly then we have to take his word!).

Regards!

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... pecial-qa/

This is precisely what he said "It's not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one's body must contain something called "S-Cells". Once these S-Cells reach a certain amount, a trigger such as anger will explosively increase the S-Cells and cause a change in the body: that's Super Saiyan. Most Saiyans have some S-Cells, although not a great quantity. the reason why Goku and Vegeta's children can become Super Saiyan relatively easily is probably because to a certain extent they inherited a lot of S-Cells, and also because Earth's environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta.

Tori-bot: "Lately everyone becomes Super Saiyan so easily, but it is no simple matter."

Arrow: And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?
Black box: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time and they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it's easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.

Goten picture: "He was able to easily become Super Saiyan thanks to inheriting lots of S-Cells!"
Goku picture: "A gentle heart + high battle power resulted in Super Saiyan!!"

Ergo a need for more power has nothing to do with it.

[MechaTrunks]

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... pecial-qa/

This is precisely what he said "It's not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one's body must contain something called "S-Cells". Once these S-Cells reach a certain amount, a trigger such as anger will explosively increase the S-Cells and cause a change in the body: that's Super Saiyan. Most Saiyans have some S-Cells, although not a great quantity. the reason why Goku and Vegeta's children can become Super Saiyan relatively easily is probably because to a certain extent they inherited a lot of S-Cells, and also because Earth's environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta.

Tori-bot: "Lately everyone becomes Super Saiyan so easily, but it is no simple matter."

Arrow: And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?
Black box: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time and they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it's easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.

Goten picture: "He was able to easily become Super Saiyan thanks to inheriting lots of S-Cells!"
Goku picture: "A gentle heart + high battle power resulted in Super Saiyan!!"

Ergo a need for more power has nothing to do with it.

I don't know how do you reach those conclusions, when Toriyama himself tells you this:

Arrow: And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?
Black box: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time and they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary.

So instead of power and a gantle heart capable of a rage boost, you need S-Cells that are increased... through power and a gentle heart that can have a rage boost.
The only difference with the S-Cells explanation is that it can better explain cases like Goten and present TL Trunks that now have a more coherent explanation on why they could reach the SSJ forms without having trained and as kids, but for a regular saiyan that has not inherited those S-Cells, it's still the same the manga told us: you need to increase your power and have a rage boost.

Regards!

[Hulk10]

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... pecial-qa/

This is precisely what he said "It's not like anyone can become a Super Saiyan through training and anger. In order to become a Super Saiyan, one's body must contain something called "S-Cells". Once these S-Cells reach a certain amount, a trigger such as anger will explosively increase the S-Cells and cause a change in the body: that's Super Saiyan. Most Saiyans have some S-Cells, although not a great quantity. the reason why Goku and Vegeta's children can become Super Saiyan relatively easily is probably because to a certain extent they inherited a lot of S-Cells, and also because Earth's environment is gentler and easier to live in than Planet Vegeta.

Tori-bot: "Lately everyone becomes Super Saiyan so easily, but it is no simple matter."

Arrow: And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?
Black box: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time and they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary. Looked at in this light, it's easy to see why becoming a Super Saiyan came easy for Goku.

Goten picture: "He was able to easily become Super Saiyan thanks to inheriting lots of S-Cells!"
Goku picture: "A gentle heart + high battle power resulted in Super Saiyan!!"

Ergo a need for more power has nothing to do with it.

I don't know how do you reach those conclusions, when Toriyama himself tells you this:

Arrow: And how does one increase S-Cells to become Super Saiyan?
Black box: Having a gentle spirit is the best way to greatly increase one's S-Cells, but most Saiyans have trouble with this, which I think is why no Super Saiyans appeared for such a long time and they became the stuff of legend. However, one can't reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary.

So instead of power and a gantle heart capable of a rage boost, you need S-Cells that are increased... through power and a gentle heart that can have a rage boost.
The only difference with the S-Cells explanation is that it can better explain cases like Goten and present TL Trunks that now have a more coherent explanation on why they could reach the SSJ forms without having trained and as kids, but for a regular saiyan that has not inherited those S-Cells, it's still the same the manga told us: you need to increase your power and have a rage boost.

Regards!

Ugh you misunderstood me. I meant that the idea that in order to trigger the form you have to create a desperate need for more power. You don't have to be backed into a corner and desperately need more power. Yes you do need to be strong enough to become one. But you don't need to be in a life or death situation that requires more power.

[MechaTrunks]

Ugh you misunderstood me. I meant that the idea that in order to trigger the form you have to create a desperate need for more power. You don't have to be backed into a corner and desperately need more power. Yes you do need to be strong enough to become one. But you don't need to be in a life or death situation that requires more power.

Well, it's not a life or death situation that triggers the transformation but a rage boost.
Vegeta got his rage boost because of the humiliation that was for him that not only Goku, but also a complete stranger, managed to be SSJ and he was completely stuck at the limit of his base state.
That generated the frustration needed to have a rage boost.

But the rage boost is needed unless you're the son of a SSJ and have an abnormally high amount of S-Cells, as the difference between Future Trunks and Presdent Trunks showed to us.

Regards!.

[Hulk10]

Ugh you misunderstood me. I meant that the idea that in order to trigger the form you have to create a desperate need for more power. You don't have to be backed into a corner and desperately need more power. Yes you do need to be strong enough to become one. But you don't need to be in a life or death situation that requires more power.

Well, it's not a life or death situation that triggers the transformation but a rage boost.
Vegeta got his rage boost because of the humiliation that was for him that not only Goku, but also a complete stranger, managed to be SSJ and he was completely stuck at the limit of his base state.
That generated the frustration needed to have a rage boost.

But the rage boost is needed unless you're the son of a SSJ and have an abnormally high amount of S-Cells, as the difference between Future Trunks and Presdent Trunks showed to us.

Regards!.

have you forgotten about Caulifla? But the rage boost is one way. Caulifla used another way.

[MechaTrunks]

have you forgotten about Caulifla? But the rage boost is one way. Caulifla used another way.

That's anime only filler, in the manga Cualifla learned to transform off-screen and since every single SSJ in the series has turned into a SSJ trhough a rage boost (even Cabba who was a slightly different kind of saiyan than the ones in U7 had to learn it this way) we have to assume she did it this way.

Regards!

[Hulk10]

have you forgotten about Caulifla? But the rage boost is one way. Caulifla used another way.

That's anime only filler, in the manga Cualifla learned to transform off-screen and since every single SSJ in the series has turned into a SSJ trhough a rage boost (even Cabba who was a slightly different kind of saiyan than the ones in U7 had to learn it this way) we have to assume she did it this way.

Regards!

Its not necessarily a good idea to assume things. But I'm tired of this discussion we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds.

[ankokudaishogun]

have you forgotten about Caulifla? But the rage boost is one way. Caulifla used another way.

Caulifla is from Universe-6, their Saiyans are different enough to have lost their tails.
Nothing forbids their biology works differently

[MechaTrunks]

Its not necessarily a good idea to assume things. But I'm tired of this discussion we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds.

If something works the same way for every single saiyan in the series, you have to assume it works exactly the same with the rest of the saiyans unless you're told the opposite.
You didn't see how Caulifla turned into a SSJ, so you have to assume it was through a rage boost which was the only method Cabba knew.

Regards!

[Hulk10]

Its not necessarily a good idea to assume things. But I'm tired of this discussion we obviously aren't going to change each other's minds.

If something works the same way for every single saiyan in the series, you have to assume it works exactly the same with the rest of the saiyans unless you're told the opposite.
You didn't see how Caulifla turned into a SSJ, so you have to assume it was through a rage boost which was the only method Cabba knew.

Regards!

You can assume it was through a rage boost but you don't know that for sure. Its not just rage that triggers it. It has to be mixed with intense sorrow if you use anger/sorrow and Cabba isn't the type of individual who could bring himself to do something to trigger both anger and sorrow. The anime tells us differently, and the anime is also canon so it cannot be so easily dismissed.

have you forgotten about Caulifla? But the rage boost is one way. Caulifla used another way.

Caulifla is from Universe-6, their Saiyans are different enough to have lost their tails.
Nothing forbids their biology works differently

That's a possibility but I'm not convinced that that is it.