Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

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Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:10 am

We know that Base Goku/Vegeta as of Planet Potaufeu are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks which would put them at DBZ Ultimate Gohan-level(bare minimum) during that point...but have they since surpassed not only vast majority of the OG cast but of M12 Gogeta, Super Vegetto, and Classic Broly(if Takao Koyama's absurd fanboyism of his own character is to be believed)? They're still training as of the current chapter so will the end result be DBS Base Goku & Vegeta > or = the strongest DBZ characters or even DBS Base Goku & Vegeta >> the strongest DBZ Characters?
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:22 am

Even with Takao Koyama's "fanboyism", both Hirudegarn and Janemba are stronger than Broly, with the latter being the strongest of all movie villains (until being stupidly surpassed by Golden Freeza). Which begs me to question why you didn't mention both or either of them instead of Broly?
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:56 am

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:22 am
Even with Takao Koyama's "fanboyism", both Hirudegarn and Janemba are stronger than Broly, with the latter being the strongest of all movie villains (until being stupidly surpassed by Golden Freeza). Which begs me to question why you didn't mention both or either of them instead of Broly?
Because Takao Koyama claimed Broly was "the strongest" including anyone out of the anime, that would include Boohan & Super Vegetto if he is correct(lawl).
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:31 pm

The base thing is pretty much a mess, because yes, up to the Potafu arc and with Base Goku beating up RoF Freeza, everything points to their base being crazy but then you have SS2 Trunks giving SS2 Goku a run for his money(in the manga Goku's base is even lower and his SS3 isn't enough, he goes God) and we are talking about a Trunks that a year before or so, managed to kill Dabura but couldn't save Shin.

Later on, Buu hits the gym and Fit Buu puts Base Goku in some trouble, U6 also has weird stuff, even if we say Cabba is stronger than all of Z, with Frost being even stronger, how come Piccolo wasn't space dust in a nanosecond? We could explain this by saying Buu, Piccolo and Trunks(alone and in a barren world) trained their asses off but that seems too much of a stretch.
My guess is they tried to go for their Base being super strong, but mid-Super they stepped that down in order to let the rest of the cast get some light, which looks like it was Toriyama's idea all along.

About the movies, I place them lower than the official story, we should bear in mind that they take place in alternate timelines where for example Goku didn't unlock SS on Namek, 17 and 18 never woke up, Perfect Cell never happened, Buu was stopped from awakening or defeated by Gotenks/Gohan.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:05 pm

Copy-Vegeta arc was a filler and it has no place in manga, while Moro arc has (at least currently) no place in anime. If anime returns with Moro arc it might be different as well. I wouldn't consider all things from anime as facts when talking about manga, especially fillers. Also this is Super so anything is possible. Goku in Super was struggling with Gohan even before he regained his old power from Z. I know some people will eat me for this but i still think base Goku and Vegeta aren't that strong in Super. They're powerful only with god forms. I don't think their base powers increased that much since Buu saga. I wouldn't put their base power levels anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. It might change due to their recent training in Moro arc tho.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:10 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:56 am
Because Takao Koyama claimed Broly was "the strongest" including anyone out of the anime, that would include Boohan & Super Vegetto if he is correct(lawl).
His claims are contradicted by feats of the characters and the sense of progression that is a feature in Dragon Ball (where the next villains are always stronger than the previous ones (with the exception being the Janemba-Hirudegarn case). So I really don't see the point in taking his claim and creation into consideration, but anyway.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:31 pm
we should bear in mind that they take place in alternate timelines where for example Goku didn't unlock SS on Namek, 17 and 18 never woke up, Perfect Cell never happened, Buu was stopped from awakening or defeated by Gotenks/Gohan.
Going by that we would bear a misconception in mind, given that the movies do not have that "what-if" characteristic.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:40 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:10 pm
His claims are contradicted by feats of the characters and the sense of progression that is a feature in Dragon Ball (where the next villains are always stronger than the previous ones (with the exception being the Janemba-Hirudegarn case). So I really don't see the point in taking his claim and creation into consideration, but anyway.
That they are.
...but since he's the boss in the matter and can retcon whatever he feels like, be it M8 Goku & M10 Gohan & Goten somehow defeating a Super Vegetto-level opponent, then we can't just dismiss it so idly. Koyama at least admitted that the BOG film Beerus was stronger than his Broly so we know he isn't having delusions of the original iteration of his character pushing it's way into DBS.
Word of God ultimately trumps fan belief even if it doesn't always make sense so that's why I included it in the thread's question.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:44 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:05 pm
Copy-Vegeta arc was a filler and it has no place in manga, while Moro arc has (at least currently) no place in anime. If anime returns with Moro arc it might be different as well. I wouldn't consider all things from anime as facts when talking about manga, especially fillers. Also this is Super so anything is possible. Goku in Super was struggling with Gohan even before he regained his old power from Z. I know some people will eat me for this but i still think base Goku and Vegeta aren't that strong in Super. They're powerful only with god forms. I don't think their base powers increased that much since Buu saga. I wouldn't put their base power levels anywhere near Ultimate Gohan. It might change due to their recent training in Moro arc tho.
"It's Filler" is never an excuse to disregard things. The manga & anime aren't exactly the same on how events roll out but there is no reason to believe that strength comparisons are vastly different unless otherwise depicted as so.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:26 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:44 pm
"It's Filler" is never an excuse to disregard things. The manga & anime aren't exactly the same on how events roll out but there is no reason to believe that strength comparisons are vastly different unless otherwise depicted as so.
In my opinion it is. Remember how Yamcha and others effortlessly beat Ginyu Force in DBZ? Or how Pikkon (SSJ Goku level at best) trashed Cell? It would seem that SSJ Goku is stronger or at least comparable to SSJ2 Gohan.

And there are some major power level differences between anime & manga in DBS. Like Goku using only SSJ3 against #17 in manga or Ultimate Gohan doing good against Kefla.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:35 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:10 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:31 pm
we should bear in mind that they take place in alternate timelines where for example Goku didn't unlock SS on Namek, 17 and 18 never woke up, Perfect Cell never happened, Buu was stopped from awakening or defeated by Gotenks/Gohan.
Going by that we would bear a misconception in mind, given that the movies do not have that "what-if" characteristic.
I don't want to deviate from the OP, so I'll keep it short: I don't know what What-If characteristics are, but having a non-SS Goku on Earth post Namek fight Cooler implies he never went to Yadrat to perfect SS and learn shunkanido, having Base Goku and Base Gohan in M8 implies they never trained for the SS FP, them having a picnic or going school-hunting implies Cell Games are not happening and the world is not in chaos, and having Goku and Vegeta dead against Janemba while on Earth they are dealing with Hitler instead of Super Buu implies the Buu threat was already dealt with somehow. There is no continuity between the show and the movies.
theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:40 pm

That they are.
...but since he's the boss in the matter and can retcon whatever he feels like, be it M8 Goku & M10 Gohan & Goten somehow defeating a Super Vegetto-level opponent, then we can't just dismiss it so idly. Koyama at least admitted that the BOG film Beerus was stronger than his Broly so we know he isn't having delusions of the original iteration of his character pushing it's way into DBS.
Word of God ultimately trumps fan belief even if it doesn't always make sense so that's why I included it in the thread's question.
About Broly, I think what Koyama meant was that Broly, if not stopped by Goku, could have possibly grown as strong as he said.
He was definitely not as strong as Koyama claimed him to be, in any movie. That is not fan belief, that was what was written, drawn and shown in the movies. A Cell arc battered Goku with the help of his even more battered friends one-shot him, and the weakeast Gohan from early Buu arc with his little brother and the ghost of his father, took him out again.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:07 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:40 pm
Word of God ultimately trumps fan belief even if it doesn't always make sense so that's why I included it in the thread's question
Except that there is not any "fan belief" in what we are discussing. It is a fact that Janemba and Hirudegarn are stronger than Broly. If you can see that something does not make sense and still just rolls with it, that defeats any chance of a well-structured conversation with facts being presented so that the people involved can reach a common sense. Instead, we would base our arguments on a nonsensical claim which may (and will) generate a whole debate based on misunderstanding and misinformation.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:35 pm
I don't know what What-If characteristics are, but having a non-SS Goku on Earth post Namek fight Cooler implies he never went to Yadrat to perfect SS and learn shunkanido
But there is a Super Saiyan Goku fight Cooler.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:35 pm
having Base Goku and Base Gohan in M8 implies they never trained for the SS FP, them having a picnic or going school-hunting implies Cell Games are not happening and the world is not in chaos,
If you look at the style of Goku's and Gohan's hair as Super Saiyan, you'll notice that it is the same as post-Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Yes, they are not transformed into Super Saiyan 24/7, but there is no reason to try to fit the events of the movies in the "main timeline". As officially stated, the movies take place in another dimension, so stuff may be different from "what we know", but still somewhat similar that doesn't make the events of the movies "what-if". Also because no official source supports that idea (the guidebooks never mentioned them to be what-if events) and because once you acknowledge the movies taking place in another dimension, you are also acknowledging them as legit events (only that they didn't happen in the "main continuity").

Don't know if you read comics, but it's like saying that the dimension Miles Morales comes from and all that happens to it are "what-if" to Earth-616/Peter Park stuff, for example. While in reality, events from different dimension are actual/legit stories. Only taking place in "different" location. That's the very reason why it's possible to make a "crossover" (like seen in Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse and Dragon Ball Heroes) between characters and their counterparts.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:35 pm
and having Goku and Vegeta dead against Janemba while on Earth they are dealing with Hitler instead of Super Buu implies the Buu threat was already dealt with somehow. There is no continuity between the show and the movies.
Majin Buu saga does not take place in a day. There were quite a few moments that they didn't need to deal with Majin Buu directly (Mr Satan living with Majin Buu comes to mind, as an example). As per the guidebooks, Movie 12 happens after Goku returns to the Otherworld and Majin Vegeta's sacrifice and probably before Gohan gets Ultimate, as he does not use it in the movie.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:38 pm

No one can give you an accurate answer for this question, since base form doesn’t see relevance in the manga. So far, it seems Base Goku is weaker than Frost, so it depends on how strong do you think Frost is, which is also unclear.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:07 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:26 pm
In my opinion it is. Remember how Yamcha and others effortlessly beat Ginyu Force in DBZ? Or how Pikkon (SSJ Goku level at best) trashed Cell? It would seem that SSJ Goku is stronger or at least comparable to SSJ2 Gohan.

And there are some major power level differences between anime & manga in DBS. Like Goku using only SSJ3 against #17 in manga or Ultimate Gohan doing good against Kefla.
What's wrong with Yamcha & the others beating the Ginyu Force? Or Pikkon knocking out Cell with a surprise attack? These two examples don't contradict power levels between the anime or manga at all.

I'm talking about examples where the differences are made clear as day.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:13 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:35 pm
About Broly, I think what Koyama meant was that Broly, if not stopped by Goku, could have possibly grown as strong as he said.
He was definitely not as strong as Koyama claimed him to be, in any movie. That is not fan belief, that was what was written, drawn and shown in the movies. A Cell arc battered Goku with the help of his even more battered friends one-shot him, and the weakeast Gohan from early Buu arc with his little brother and the ghost of his father, took him out again.
"[It's] because he’s the strongest. Even including the TV anime, nobody exists in the world who’s stronger than Broli. I mean, even Vegeta, Prince of the Saiyans, was trembling in fear. I felt that there’s no way that kind of mightiest being would die in a single outing. After all, there were kids who cried at Broly’s overwhelming strength when they saw 'Burn Up!!' at Shueisha’s preview screening. It’s always difficult coming up with an enemy for Goku, because I’d constantly have to escalate their strength. So, he ended up appearing three times."

Koyama doesn't say that Broly grew to be such a threat over time but that he is simply "the strongest".
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:14 am

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:07 pm
But there is a Super Saiyan Goku fight Cooler.
But we know the exact moment when Goku arrives Earth post-Namek, there are no lost chapters before Mecha Freeza. It doesn't add up with the original turnout of events, either Goku defeated Freeza with the genki dama, or he killed him quickly as a SS and returned to Earth safely, but then why is he taking so long to turn SS? doesn't matter how he killed Freeza, it is clearly NOT the same as in the manga/anime. Because if it is post Trunks arrival, then he should be confortable as SS and he was not.

Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:07 pm
If you look at the style of Goku's and Gohan's hair as Super Saiyan, you'll notice that it is the same as post-Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Yes, they are not transformed into Super Saiyan 24/7, but there is no reason to try to fit the events of the movies in the "main timeline". As officially stated, the movies take place in another dimension, so stuff may be different from "what we know", but still somewhat similar that doesn't make the events of the movies "what-if". Also because no official source supports that idea (the guidebooks never mentioned them to be what-if events) and because once you acknowledge the movies taking place in another dimension, you are also acknowledging them as legit events (only that they didn't happen in the "main continuity").
I think I agree here, maybe we are using different words, don't have to call it What-if, but they do seem to happen in a timeline where things took place in a different way. Only Goku and Gohan took it easy previous to the Cell Games, why aren't Vegeta and Trunks training their asses off? they are listening to Krilin sing! it looks like someone took care of Cell, maybe Vegeta, maybe Trunks? but they are definitely not waiting for the Cell Games to begin. People are trying to get their kids into a nice school, when in the show they were running for the hills
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:07 pm
Majin Buu saga does not take place in a day. There were quite a few moments that they didn't need to deal with Majin Buu directly (Mr Satan living with Majin Buu comes to mind, as an example). As per the guidebooks, Movie 12 happens after Goku returns to the Otherworld and Majin Vegeta's sacrifice and probably before Gohan gets Ultimate, as he does not use it in the movie.
True, but Gohan is back on Earth, his hair looks like Ultimate and one-shots Freeza which we sort of agree that only BoG Base Goku might actually be able to do that, if at all.
SS3 Gotenks is a thing, so it is happening post Super Buu's birth, and I should add that it looks like people were revived because Chichi is home, Bulma too, and even an old man is playing golf with his daughter. We even have those people at the cemetery witnessing their loved ones coming back to life too. And the dragon balls are ready.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:54 am

After the Golden Freeza arc I think it is just simplest to pretend that the base forms are no longer Super Saiyan God-level. As such, I don't think Gokuu and Vegeta are all that different from the Majin Buu arc. My guess is that Moro is Super Saiyan Blue-level at the least but has the advantage of his magic.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:22 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:14 am
But we know the exact moment when Goku arrives Earth post-Namek, there are no lost chapters before Mecha Freeza.
Maybe there is in the alternate dimension where the movies take place. I mean, you will find problems if you try to fit the movies in the "main" one.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:14 am
I think I agree here, maybe we are using different words, don't have to call it What-if, but they do seem to happen in a timeline where things took place in a different way.


We are not. "What-if" does not even remotely work as a synonym for "alternate dimension". "What-if", as implied in the name itself, stands for hypothetical scenarios and events that despite you are watching, "deep down" they are not actually happening. So for example, to Ooishi Naho, it seems she sees her Episode of Bardock as a "what-if" work, that is, "what if Bardock had survived Freeza's attack and sent to the past...?". You are seeing what is happening to Bardock, but if you take Naho's word for it, these events didn't happen in reality.

The movies, on the other hand, were officially acknowledged to take place in another reality and that's it. So the events we all see in the movies are real, they are telling actual stories that are happening (but in a different dimension we are used to). The Goku (and this goes to every other character) we see in the movies is the same Goku in the "main universe", but at some point, things went in another way. And so this Goku experienced an event that the "main one" didn't (this is why neither Goku nor Vegeta knew Broly, because they didn't experience Movie 8. But if Dragon Ball Super: Broly were to happen to "Movie Goku", he will then recognized him, and he would know two different Brolys). In short, the movies are not hypothetical events, they do happen, their events are as legit as the events in the "main continuity". Seeing now, these two concepts are completely opposites.

I must say again: the movies diverging from the events in the "main one" does not equal to them being "what-if" events, as I explained just above the difference. Quite the contrary, if the people in charge were smart (and thankfully Toriyama were in Daizenshuu 6), they'll tell you that they are real events happening elsewhere (which then allows endless possibilities to be explored in the future. Well, these possibilities that are exactly what Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 did and Dragon Ball Heroes is doing right now).
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:14 am
True, but Gohan is back on Earth, his hair looks like Ultimate and one-shots Freeza which we sort of agree that only BoG Base Goku might actually be able to do that, if at all.
Gohan is in base form, as you can see his hairstyle. Base Gohan has a short bang and a strand of hair. Ultimate Gohan has a long bang and no strand (the former to the left and the latter to the right). Gohan first appeared as Ultimate (even transforming into it) in Movie 13 (also happens in Movie 14).
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:48 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:22 am
We are not. "What-if" does not even remotely work as a synonym for "alternate dimension". "What-if", as implied in the name itself, stands for hypothetical scenarios and events that despite you are watching, "deep down" they are not actually happening. So for example, to Ooishi Naho, it seems she sees her Episode of Bardock as a "what-if" work, that is, "what if Bardock had survived Freeza's attack and sent to the past...?". You are seeing what is happening to Bardock, but if you take Naho's word for it, these events didn't happen in reality.

The movies, on the other hand, were officially acknowledged to take place in another reality and that's it. So the events we all see in the movies are real, they are telling actual stories that are happening (but in a different dimension we are used to). The Goku (and this goes to every other character) we see in the movies is the same Goku in the "main universe", but at some point, things went in another way. And so this Goku experienced an event that the "main one" didn't (this is why neither Goku nor Vegeta knew Broly, because they didn't experience Movie 8. But if Dragon Ball Super: Broly were to happen to "Movie Goku", he will then recognized him, and he would know two different Brolys). In short, the movies are not hypothetical events, they do happen. Seeing now, these two concepts are completely opposites.

I must say again: the movies diverging from the events in the "main one" does not equal to them being "what-if" events, as I explained just above the difference. Quite the contrary, if the people in charge were smart (and thankfully Toriyama were in Daizenshuu 6), they'll tell you that they are real events happening elsewhere (which then allows endless possibilities to be explored in the future. Well, these possibilities that are exactly what Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 did and Dragon Ball Heroes is doing right now)
That still doesn't change the fact that Movie Goku experienced events that the "main one" didn't, I'm saying the movies happen in an alternate dimension where some villains were defeated in a different way. It is an alternate timeline where Goku took a direct flight from Namek to Earth without mastery or even awareness of the SS transformation, unless you are telling me that he came back from Yadrat, learnt stuff from Trunks, later on Cooler showed up, and he suddenly decided to use Kaioken instead of the SS transformation he had under his belt, even when he was clearly overpowered.
And pretty much every movie has a scenario where it does not match the original play of events. The 3 SS movie has everyone chilling and going shopping, even Trunks is there so he came back, but there is no immediate threat, they are not training to deal with the androids, but androids show up anyway, so how can we explain this? probably Dr Gero was killed before getting to his lab, which is when Trunks came back. Oh and Goku is not sick or getting sick like against 19, so he must've taken the medicine unlike in the show.
The Broly movie has everyone planning their future and having a nice time, so an alternate timeline where Cell is no longer a threat.

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:22 am
Gohan is in base form, as you can see his hairstyle. Base Gohan has a short bang and a strand of hair. Ultimate Gohan has a long bang and no strand (the former to the left and the latter to the right). Gohan first appeared as Ultimate (even transforming into it) in Movie 13 (also happens in Movie 14).
Ultimate was suppose to be Gohan in base or sort of, his full power unleashed without transforming but by powering up, which he does before killing Freeza with one punch, I don't think he can do that in just his base. People still debate if even BoG Goku could do that, even Beerus comments something along those lines IIRC.
Also, why wouldn't he have the Ultimate Form? his hair looks different from before going to Shin's planet(you know, the crappy little bang from Broly's return), if I have to decide between a single strand of hair and the outcome of a fight, I'm going with the latter. The movie came out the month DBZ gave us SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, so the single strand of hair might be a tiny mistake from the animators.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by emperior » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:54 pm

I don’t think so, considering how Gohan was able to get to around Blue level if not higher in less than a day, after he got back to his Buu arc self, suggesting that Ultimate Gohan wasn’t many leagues below Super Saiyan Blue.

Base Goku and Vegeta are of course stronger than they were at the end of Buu arc, but to say they surpassed Ultimate Gohan or even Vegetto would be wrong in my opinion. Of course I won’t consider their Resurrection F strength has it makes no sense if we consider what happens after it.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:48 pm
I'm saying the movies happen in an alternate dimension where some villains were defeated in a different way.
This is not supported by any official source. What happens during the fight might (and I can't stress "might" enough) be different, but the outcome is probably the same. If you think that Majin Buu is already defeated by the time Movie 12 happens, then you are going against what was officially established/stated in the guidebooks (they state when the movies happen but no mention of any "what-if" situation is made, in this case: "Movie 12 happens after the defeat of Majin Buu by the hands of Ultimate Gohan", for example). It would be your word/"headcanon" against the official statement. Well, I think there might not be a problem having that train of thought, so it's probably okay? I dunno.

Not saying you are wrong to think that way, but it's kinda a huge assumption to make if you ask me. I, too, have my own "headcanon" to counter the impossible events. By changing when the movies take place should be enough (also because this way, I'm not applying a what-if outcome). So for example, Movie 3 technically happens at the same time as Freeza saga (Goku is already on Namekusei or on his way), but I prefer to think Movie 3 happens right before Goku leaves Earth and its events remain the same as we know it (and I don't put too much thought on it after that. Also because there's no reason to). This is a more "down-to-earth" thought and avoid any issue that shouldn't be there, you know.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:48 pm
Ultimate was suppose to be Gohan in base or sort of, his full power unleashed without transforming but by powering up, which he does before killing Freeza with one punch, I don't think he can do that in just his base. (...)
Also, why wouldn't he have the Ultimate Form? his hair looks different from before going to Shin's planet(you know, the crappy little bang from Broly's return), if I have to decide between a single strand of hair and the outcome of a fight, I'm going with the latter. The movie came out the month DBZ gave us SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, so the single strand of hair might be a tiny mistake from the animators.
Despite the power-up, Gohan is still in base form, there's a clear shot of him showing the bangs right before he strikes Freeza.

Because despite the lack of effort to portray forms 100% accurately (Toei always forgets the Super Saiyan 2 lightnings in all movies), the design itself is correct. No movie has Super Saiyan 2 with the Super Saiyan hairstyle, for example. Even in Movie 10 in which Gohan uses both forms, you can tell the difference just by looking at it. You can compare the images of base Gohan in this movie and from Movie 13 with images of his Ultimate form (also from Movie 13), there's a clear difference. Anyway, if you really want to assume anything else, that's okay... I guess.
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