Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:09 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:38 pm
No one can give you an accurate answer for this question, since base form doesn’t see relevance in the manga. So far, it seems Base Goku is weaker than Frost, so it depends on how strong do you think Frost is, which is also unclear.
I'd like to point out that Base Goku & Vegeta in the manga were managing to handle post Limits-Surpassed Jiren until he raised his power one final time to eliminate them both. Even if Jiren was at 1% of his power by that point then it would take, bare minimum, Frost's strength to handle that, perhaps even more seeing how wildly Jiren could still fluctuate his power. Any Saiyan in base that can hold back even a mostly suppressed Jiren has got some real power to them.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Miracles » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:32 pm

Goku was battling Beerus in base mode, who was using over 60% of his power, getting a boost from obtaining god mode.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Username2016 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:03 pm

We know that Base Goku/Vegeta as of Planet Potaufeu are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks
Wasn't that anime only? I dont remember Goku/Vegeta's bases being as strong as SS3 Gotenks in base in the manga. Super Anime bases stomps all of Z but I'm not sure about the manga

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 pm

IMO Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are more or less in the same level of theirselves in the end of Buu saga, so no.

However, in another topic there's apparently evidence about Goku (manga) being more powerful than Shin, so who knows.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:13 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:29 pm
IMO Goku and Vegeta in their base forms are more or less in the same level of theirselves in the end of Buu saga, so no.

However, in another topic there's apparently evidence about Goku (manga) being more powerful than Shin, so who knows.
...and yet Base Goku managed to hold on against Jiren(a guy greater than any Z/GT villain in raw strength and is even stronger than a Hakaishin) in both the anime & manga. Such a feat makes SSJ3 Vegetto look insignificant by comparison.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:19 pm

Unless Jiren was holding back.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:30 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:19 pm
Unless Jiren was holding back.
Jiren was giving it his all. If his objective was to deliberately struggle against Boo arc Base Saiyans then Jiren would use 0.00000001% of his power but I seriously doubt he's one to be dramatic enough to do so.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 pm

Jiren was weakened. You can’t have a good grasp of his power in that state. It doesn’t matter if Base Saiyans managed to survive his assault, Jiren is above SSBlue level in his peak condition. Only Goku Black has a strong base form.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:28 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 pm
Jiren was weakened. You can’t have a good grasp of his power in that state. It doesn’t matter if Base Saiyans managed to survive his assault, Jiren is above SSBlue level in his peak condition. Only Goku Black has a strong base form.
And the Saiyans were weakened too. Jiren managed to momentarily raise his power back up after becoming enraged and though Vegeta let his guard down enough to be knocked off, Goku managed to hold against it long enough for Freeza to launch a surprise kamikaze on Jiren.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:56 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:28 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:21 pm
Jiren was weakened. You can’t have a good grasp of his power in that state. It doesn’t matter if Base Saiyans managed to survive his assault, Jiren is above SSBlue level in his peak condition. Only Goku Black has a strong base form.
And the Saiyans were weakened too. Jiren managed to momentarily raise his power back up after becoming enraged and though Vegeta let his guard down enough to be knocked off, Goku managed to hold against it long enough for Freeza to launch a surprise kamikaze on Jiren.
Yeah, but what exactly does that even mean? That Base Goku should be stronger than some abstract level that we can’t agree about?

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Desassina » Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:04 pm

Goku and Vegeta can increase their power to a God's level without transforming, but when they do, they become SSGSS, so the idea to keep in mind is, whenever watching or reading DBS, that if SSJB is the only form used in a fight, then their base scales up to its prior level. Otherwise, in case they transform earlier, their base form is weaker than the others. It has been evidenced by Freeza's fight, Goku versus Hit, Copy Vegeta, Goku Black prior to Rosé, and base Goku versus Broly's wrath. Goku Black went from SSJ Vegeta to SSJB with only Super Saiyan. Vegito has a strong feat against Zamasu in base form, when he went straight into Blue afterwards, and he could transform into SSJ beforehand like Gogeta.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:21 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:56 pm
Yeah, but what exactly does that even mean? That Base Goku should be stronger than some abstract level that we can’t agree about?
It means Base Goku is just under enraged Jiren's power. Whether Jiren is at half-strength, one-quarter strength, or one-tenth strength, Base Goku holding on against any of these degrees of power is an incredible feat that beats out the vast majority of what we've seen him handle up to this point.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:25 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:21 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:56 pm
Yeah, but what exactly does that even mean? That Base Goku should be stronger than some abstract level that we can’t agree about?
It means Base Goku is just under enraged Jiren's power. Whether Jiren is at half-strength, one-quarter strength, or one-tenth strength, Base Goku holding on against any of these degrees of power is an incredible feat that beats out the vast majority of what we've seen him handle up to this point.
That means that probably Super Saiyan (insert level here*) could have taken on weakened Jiren. Nothing to be fussed about.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:17 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:30 pm
SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:19 pm
Unless Jiren was holding back.
Jiren was giving it his all. If his objective was to deliberately struggle against Boo arc Base Saiyans then Jiren would use 0.00000001% of his power but I seriously doubt he's one to be dramatic enough to do so.
Oh, you're talking about the last fight. I think there's at least two ways to see that fight:

1 - Jiren was really weakened.
2 - Base Goku was still very strong.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:00 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:17 pm
Oh, you're talking about the last fight. I think there's at least two ways to see that fight:

1 - Jiren was really weakened.
2 - Base Goku was still very strong.
1. That means Jiren drops all the way down in power to somewhere around DBZ's Namek arc if DBS Goku & Vegeta's bases aren't much higher than their DBZ selves. I know that characters lose considerable strength when they're tired...but there's no way Jiren is that weakened. Jiren upheaved a massive blast from Post-ROF Freeza's final form so he's still in the general strength of being far stronger than the majority of Z characters.
2. Not just "very strong". Any Base Saiyan holding onto a ROF Final Form Freeza-level opponent is stronger than the SSJs of old.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:16 am

That’s totally your opinion though. You can’t claim that Jiren is stronger than X level from Namek Arc, since he fought weakened versions of Goku, Vegeta and Freeza as well. For all intents or purposes his level of drain could be that dramatic.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Shintoki » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:12 am

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:56 am
Grimlock wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:22 am
Even with Takao Koyama's "fanboyism", both Hirudegarn and Janemba are stronger than Broly, with the latter being the strongest of all movie villains (until being stupidly surpassed by Golden Freeza). Which begs me to question why you didn't mention both or either of them instead of Broly?
Because Takao Koyama claimed Broly was "the strongest" including anyone out of the anime, that would include Boohan & Super Vegetto if he is correct(lawl).
not to ignore his clear bias to broly but let's not forget that he acknowldeged that the follow-up antagonists were stronger in that same interview.

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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:34 am

I don't know if they have.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:36 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:16 am
That’s totally your opinion though. You can’t claim that Jiren is stronger than X level from Namek Arc, since he fought weakened versions of Goku, Vegeta and Freeza as well. For all intents or purposes his level of drain could be that dramatic.
Since the claim here is that Goku & Vegeta's bases are a minor degree greater than their Boo arc selves, I totally can. Beerus was puzzled as to how Goku could have beaten Freeza, a Namek arc level fighter. Goku & Vegeta are claimed to only be a bit greater than their base selves from Beerus' estimate so that means weakened versions of these characters are Namek level. Additionally, Freeza at the end of the ToP wasn't nearly as drained as Goku & Vegeta. Freeza still had the power to launch a massive Ki blast at Jiren and then transform into his golden form afterwards, that's a rather big implication that he has a good amount of Ki left.
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Re: Has Moro Arc Base Goku/Vegeta Surpassed Everyone From DBZ?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:41 am

Shintoki wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:12 am
not to ignore his clear bias to broly but let's not forget that he acknowldeged that the follow-up antagonists were stronger in that same interview.
I covered that already.
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