Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

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Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:06 am

Nowadays, Goku & Vegeta are frequently even with one another so Goku may not have to reduce his Ki any like in Z/GT in order to use the fusion dance with Vegeta...thus DBS Gogeta has the full power of both fusees. With that being the case, is Vegetto still the stronger fusion or simply the more convenient one?
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:33 am

theherodjl wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:06 am
Nowadays, Goku & Vegeta are frequently even with one another so Goku may not have to reduce his Ki any like in Z/GT in order to use the fusion dance with Vegeta...thus DBS Gogeta has the full power of both fusees. With that being the case, is Vegetto still the stronger fusion or simply the more convenient one?
We have recent official information that puts them as equals.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:46 am

I originally thought Vegetto was more powerful but the Broly arc put a damper on that. Somehow the dance of a species like the Metamorese yields an equally powerful result as the ultimate trump card of the Kaioshins. Go figure.

Also, since the time limitations of the Potara have been established, what difference is there between the two for Goku and Vegeta? They would be equally matched in a fight. It's just aesthetics and identity at this point. I guess Vegetto might carry a slight tactical advantage as he is wearing protective garments in the form of Vegeta's boots and gloves and Goku's gi (underneath at least).

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:38 am

I think that Gogeta being a little stronger makes sense, since Metamorian Fusion requires more than similar battle powers to be performed. And with the focus spirit/ki control is being given nowadays, probably the sync Fusion requires results in a stronger fusion.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:37 am

No. And there never was. You can't tweak math, you know. It's the power level of one fusee times the power level of the other fusee. And despite what is said in the manga by Old Kaioshin "the effects are greater", that never made sense anyway. So you have Gogeta and Vegetto being equally stronger. The only way for one to be stronger than the other, is obviously if we take one of them from a different time period (i.e GT Gogeta is stronger than Movie 12 Gogeta and Majin Buu saga Vegetto, for obvious reasons).
theherodjl wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:06 am
Nowadays, Goku & Vegeta are frequently even with one another so Goku may not have to reduce his Ki any like in Z/GT in order to use the fusion dance with Vegeta...thus DBS Gogeta has the full power of both fusees.
That requirement to perform the Metamoru fusion was never said to affect the overall power level of the fused character.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:14 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:38 am
I think that Gogeta being a little stronger makes sense, since Metamorian Fusion requires more than similar battle powers to be performed. And with the focus spirit/ki control is being given nowadays, probably the sync Fusion requires results in a stronger fusion.
We don't know how much more effective Potara is to the Dance or vice versa. Just because the battle powers aren't equal doesn't necessarily mean Potara produces a weaker fusion.

To OP. Herms has really nice and complete thorough breakdown of the long-time debate here: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1071463452579786752

Basically, it depends on the source. Some sources say Vegetto, some say Gogeta. The most recent one (from Weekly Jump) was released during as part of a Broly film promotion, putting them as "equally-matched ultimate trump cards." So if you want to rely on the most recent up-to-date info, then there's that.

Then again, the most recent info about DB also put SS3 on par with Buuhan (from V-Jump).
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1079579748899016705

So... maybe it's okay to disregard most recent info as skeptical. :problem:

What I'm trynna say, is that the answer's still not clear and probably never will be. There's credibility to both sides of the argument.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:24 pm

Lionel wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:46 am
I originally thought Vegetto was more powerful but the Broly arc put a damper on that.
Not really. Goku and Vegeta were much stronger in Broly movie than they were against Black Goku and Zamasu.

That being said, there’s never been any proof that Vegeto is stronger than Gogeta. Ro Kaioshin never specifically said the Potara fusion creates a stronger being than the one created by the dance. He just said the effects of the Potara fusion are more powerful, which could simply refer to the fusion being permanent (well, it’s not but Ro Kaioshin thought so).

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:41 pm

I believe they are equals, yes. Back in the day I thought Gogeta was stronger due to some stupid notion that he had a little more of Goku in him, who was stronger than Vegeta in Z and in M12. But they are made from the same characters, why would one be stronger than the other?

The ki lowering was never stated to amp up the metamoru fusion. The only case you could present in favour of Vegito would be the rival boost thing, which was never said just how much that boost is, a 1%? a 10%? a 25%?. And nowadays it depends on what the potara considers rivals, in the buu arc they weren't as "close" as they are now, so maybe that boost is no longer as big as in Z. Their rivalry was a little more tense back then.

The time limit could be the match point, 60 minutes vs 30 minutes... with apparently only Gogeta being able to exert a great deal of power without defusing.

They have their ups and downs, you can only fuse for half hour without drawbacks BUT to fuse you need time and room for the dance. The Potara are immediate fusion items, you have a whole hour but you can't go all out.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:24 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:14 am
We don't know how much more effective Potara is to the Dance or vice versa. Just because the battle powers aren't equal doesn't necessarily mean Potara produces a weaker fusion.
I wasn’t exactly talking about the battle powers of the fusees, rather about the amount of skill and ki control it’s required to perform Metamorian Fusion. Since it’s a more difficult process, I think it makes sense the reward is a little more attractive, if you understand me.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by funrush » Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:39 pm

It used to be that Potara fusions were significantly stronger than the dance fusions, but I think for Super Toriyama retconned that and said that the fusions are equally strong.

So to answer your question, no, it seems like they're equal.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:10 pm

funrush wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:39 pm
It used to be that Potara fusions were significantly stronger than the dance fusions,
Again, that’s not really what was stated. It’s just how fans interpreted Ro Kaioshin’s sentence. And Vegeto being more popular than Gogeta probably played a part in this interpretation.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:22 pm

Potara inherently begetting a more powerful result than the Fusion Dance wasn't a bad conclusion to make. We know the Kaioshins were members of a unique species of otherworld entity with strength and abilities that far exceeded what mortals were capable of on average. It seems natural, if you ask me, that their magic would conceive a powerful result as well, especially one that's touted as their trump card. I mean aren't they technically created through divine magic or something? We can assume the Shinjin possess god ki.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:06 pm

The way I see it, there isn't one mainly because the resultant Fusion comes from a combination of the extremely compatible Goku and Vegeta. They're equally strong, have complementary temperaments, and drive each other to become stronger.

Ergo, when they use Fusion, the result is essentially the same equally strong new fighter because the parts going in are the same. Metamoran Fusion is easier to mess up, basically.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:24 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:14 am
We don't know how much more effective Potara is to the Dance or vice versa. Just because the battle powers aren't equal doesn't necessarily mean Potara produces a weaker fusion.
I wasn’t exactly talking about the battle powers of the fusees, rather about the amount of skill and ki control it’s required to perform Metamorian Fusion. Since it’s a more difficult process, I think it makes sense the reward is a little more attractive, if you understand me.
I get you but on the other hand, the other fusion is born from god-like accessories... so one would think that'd also give the fusion an inherent boost or something like god ki does...
Surai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:10 pm
funrush wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:39 pm
It used to be that Potara fusions were significantly stronger than the dance fusions,
Again, that’s not really what was stated. It’s just how fans interpreted Ro Kaioshin’s sentence. And Vegeto being more popular than Gogeta probably played a part in this interpretation.
Daizenshuu 7 confirmed Potara earring as producing a stronger fusion than the dance as well.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:42 pm

So I'm guessing that Metamor fusion is more evidence of the Gods' complacency in that they never conceived that mortals could & did invent a form of fusion comparable in strength to their own?
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:50 pm

It's been retconned so that they are equally powerful.
theherodjl wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:42 pm
So I'm guessing that Metamor fusion is more evidence of the Gods' complacency in that they never conceived that mortals could & did invent a form of fusion comparable in strength to their own?
To be fair the potara still theoretically lasts longer (1 hour vs 30 minutes). Although there are a lot of things mortals have come up with that the gods were surprised at (time machines, god-level ki users, etc.)
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:09 am

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:10 pm
Daizenshuu 7 confirmed Potara earring as producing a stronger fusion than the dance as well.
Daizenshuu books aren’t reliable, they say a lot of dumb things (like Base Vegeto being as strong as SSJ Vegeto, which is not even the dumbest thing I’ve read). So they can’t really "confirm" anything.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:21 am

Surai wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:09 am
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:10 pm
Daizenshuu 7 confirmed Potara earring as producing a stronger fusion than the dance as well.
Daizenshuu books aren’t reliable, they say a lot of dumb things (like Base Vegeto being as strong as SSJ Vegeto, which is not even the dumbest thing I’ve read). So they can’t really "confirm" anything.
You’ll have to provide the page or source on that because I do not recall reading that “dumb thing” anywhere in the Daizenshuu 7. As for the entry on Potara fusion> Fusion dance, Herms’ tweet which I linked has the source.

Daizenshuus are the most reliable sources there are for pre-BoG era after the manga, and often support/back up claims made in it. There is very little room for dispute on this.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:38 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:50 pm
It's been retconned so that they are equally powerful.
There's uncertainty there, as while Herms' translation of it suggests that they're the same strength wise, other translations from equally reputable sources say it has nothing to do with power itself, and instead that the two techniques for fusing are just both equally dependable.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:07 am

Darkprince410 wrote:
Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:38 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:50 pm
It's been retconned so that they are equally powerful.
There's uncertainty there, as while Herms' translation of it suggests that they're the same strength wise, other translations from equally reputable sources say it has nothing to do with power itself, and instead that the two techniques for fusing are just both equally dependable.
The phrase that was used to compare them is 「いずれ劣らぬ最強最後の切札だ」. 最強最後 means "most powerful & final."

Power/strength is 100% involved. Idk what other translators said that it had nothing to do with power but those translators are blatantly wrong.
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