Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:45 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am
I'm sorry, what? The bold is the pinnacle definition of "fan theory/headcanon" at its finest.
Goku coming back w/o the suit =/= not needing it, especially when literally the only time we see him side the Earth's core is with the suit. Episode made it quite clear he would've died w/o the suit.
I don't say none of that ...
goku is not affirming anything ... he only gives a supposition that is contradicted later and you cannot deny that ..
something that everyone noticed even those who comment here
and anyway ... vegeta manages to overcome absolute zero in ssj
Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am
From my PoV, it is you committing fallacies by using hyperboles like 'absolute zero' to claim it means something. This is why ppl like you cant be taken seriously. The most correct way to powerscaling is to compare feats between characters vs. characters, not characters vs. rocks, in the same work. Because the former establishes an accurate truth (but not necessarily infallible), the latter never does.

Also I give zero shits about feats in Digimon, Saint Seiya, etc. We are talking about DB here. When you start comparing DB to other franchises your whole argument falls apart.

But it's clear I'm not going to be able to convince you on anything. So agree to disagree, this will be my last message on this. No DB writer will ever follow these fan theory tier lists in the first place, especially not fans comparing GT to Super like destructive feats ever meant anything in the first place.
you compare reality with fiction ... but I'm the one who commits fallacies?
Pan hits rildo and Roshi fights with Jiren, of course ...
kamba fights vegito bluken but can't beat jiren lol
it does not invalidate anything ... I give you saying that you are being too closed with respect to the techniques ... comparing them with real things and saying that they are incoherent when everyone has seen those things before in fiction and has nothing absurd at all
It means a lot ... because it is the power that the scriptwriters and the author want to give their characters ... for something there are declarations, for something there are facts and other official material
[img]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploa ... -offic.jpg[/img

"Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form) An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One’s personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell’s energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System."

they give it importance ... because it is ...

Each screenwriter has a different idea and perspective when it comes to creating the power and limits of his character ... even without knowing what will come next with other series based on the same work

and when comparing the simply who showed better feats and that's all

I will tell you one last thing .... they can change the power of a character or transformation simply to sell you that even though before I did not show so much power that is not a novelty
Bardock Xeno, SSJ4, SSL and Gogeta etc etc

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:46 am

Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:19 pm
Isn't that the same thing as Goku would die without the suit?
No.
Goku cannot survive open space, but his body is WAAAAAY strong enough to sustain the temperature and (lack of)pressure.
It's the lack of air that kills him.

Same might apply to Earth core. It's not the heat or pressure, but the lack of air, something training doesn't help much

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:20 pm

So, from what I'm seeing, most people believe the intention right now is that, when formed from the same pair of Goku and Vegeta, Vegito and Gogeta are for all intents and purposes pretty much the same being with similar levels of power.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:37 pm

Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:08 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am
Person A: Goku made a statement. He KNOWS he will die there.
Person B: Goku asked a question. He DOESN'T KNOW if he will die there.
Person C: Goku made an assumption. He THINKS he will die there.

And this is only with this scene.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:24 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:20 pm
So, from what I'm seeing, most people believe the intention right now is that, when formed from the same pair of Goku and Vegeta, Vegito and Gogeta are for all intents and purposes pretty much the same being with similar levels of power.
Yup. There are a few people who think otherwise but the links provided by Herms and a few others have pretty much concluded the 'debate'. Although, I just love how the discussion has shifted towards Goku's durability within inhuman conditions when the question for this thread has always been about the power difference between a couple fusions.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:10 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:37 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:08 pm
Rakurai wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:53 am
Person A: Goku made a statement. He KNOWS he will die there.
Person B: Goku asked a question. He DOESN'T KNOW if he will die there.
Person C: Goku made an assumption. He THINKS he will die there.

And this is only with this scene.
Thai is disingenuous. The context from the rest of the episode:

Goku: Won’t I die if I go there?

Declaration of physical limits made by narrative.

Bulma: No worries use my company’s suit.

Solution to overcome said physical limits.

Goku goes retrieve the rock in the suit.

Consistency of physical limits imposed by narrative.

Beerus and Whis, two beings of a realm higher than Goku, show up in the same environment without needing support, in contrast to Goku who does.

We never see Goku take off the suit inside the Earths core.

The narrative is what it is. To say Goku does not is headcanon not supported by the episode and mental gymnastics on an assumption with a large leap in reasoning.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:58 pm

Again, that's just one possible interpretation. Here is another:

Goku: Won’t I die if I go there?

Isn't a statement, but a question. The narrative shows the possibility, not the reality.

Bulma: No worries use my company’s suit.

Doesn't matter if he can survive or not, Bulma have a solution. The possibility still exists.

Goku goes retrieve the rock in the suit.

Goku trusts Bulma, and he don't want to take risks. Again, the possibility.

Beerus and Whis, two beings of a realm higher than Goku, show up in the same environment without needing support, in contrast to Goku who seemly does.

We never see Goku take off the suit inside the Earths core.

When Goku returned he was without the suit. Some time passed between his conversation with Beerus and Whis and his return from Earth's core, and we don't know exactly what happened in there.




In bold we have the narrative, with some little additions in red.

Anyway, in the end this will lead to nowhere. You can say that people are making their own headcanon and using some mental gymnastics to do that, but they can say the same about you. You can think you're right and your arguments are convincing, but they can do the same thing.

It's Cell's regeneration all over again.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:18 am

This headcanon hinges solely on Goku not returning without the suit. Which is frankly a very weak and not convincing argument and requires a large leap in reasoning, again. Filling in the time b/w is not an option, as the episode does not emphasize or suggest to anything happening significantly during that time.

The narrative is clear. If the possibility of otherwise was there, we would’ve been told something suggestive like Goku thinking “maybe I don’t need the suit.”

The episode puts forth the notion that Goku needs the suit, otherwise he will die. Beerus and Whis do not. That is a fact.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:01 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:20 pm
So, from what I'm seeing, most people believe the intention right now is that, when formed from the same pair of Goku and Vegeta, Vegito and Gogeta are for all intents and purposes pretty much the same being with similar levels of power.
Pretty much.

now, Fusion Dance is a technique relying on the sync between components.
It is POSSIBLE that a Gogeta made earlier in the timeline would have been weaker than a Vegetto made at the same time-frame, as Goku and Vegeta were even worse at synchronization than post-TOP

Likewise it's possible that if Goku and Vegeta managed to reach full synchro they would make a Gogeta stronger than a Vegetto

That said, if such a difference would to exist, it would be quite minor, a 10% difference at the very largest.
So for all purposes and intents, Vegetto and Gogeta are equivalent.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:58 am

But at the same time, the episode shows a possibility: maybe Goku doesn't really need the suit. Even without a talk or thought on the subject, the possibility it's still there. That's why we see different opinions and headcanons.

Sadly I don't think we will have a definitive answer about the subject soon. Maybe in the future, who knows.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:52 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:58 am
But at the same time, the episode shows a possibility: maybe Goku doesn't really need the suit. Even without a talk or thought on the subject, the possibility it's still there. That's why we see different opinions and headcanons.

Sadly I don't think we will have a definitive answer about the subject soon. Maybe in the future, who knows.
There is a definitive answer based on the narrative of the episode.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 am

At least that's the way you see it.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:14 pm

Goku most likely couldn't breathe in the mantle. Beerus and Whis appear to.not need oxygen and we know Goku and Vegeta do.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 pm

They made them equally powerful so they could sell more toys. :P
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