Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:52 pm

I guess we’ll never agree on the concept of canon.

Neko Majin is just a parody, it’s not meant to be part of the official story. DBS isn’t a parody, it’s a serious sequel to DB.

My knowledge of DB games is quite limited and I don’t know anything about Dragon Ball Online.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:03 pm

Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:52 pm
Neko Majin is just a parody, it’s not meant to be part of the official story. DBS isn’t a parody, it’s a serious sequel to DB.
Exactly the response I was expecting. So you see, all about context. You can't really turn the situation into an oversimplification one, proceeding to safely say that "side-story" inherently judges that a work to be "non-canon".
Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:52 pm
My knowledge of DB games is quite limited and I don’t know anything about Dragon Ball Online.
All you need to know is that Toriyama was involved for five years in its production. With that knowledge, what say you about the game?

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:05 pm

I don't see anything wrong with Goku using kaioken vs Nappa. Goku was twice as strong, then Nappa calms down and powers up (surpassing his 4000) and the fight is no longer that much one-sided. By the end, Nappa was going for Krilin and Gohan and was much closer to them than Goku. No matter how much faster Goku was, Nappa started this race before and the distance was too short for Goku to outfly him, and the gap between them was somewhat shortened.
Also, Nappa was about to mouth-ki-blast them, not just flying towards them to fight, so not only had to catch up to Nappa but do it before he opened his mouth and attacked them.
I mean it's not like he HAD to use it in order to defeat Nappa, he HAD to use it to prevent Nappa from killing somebody closer to Nappa.
The daizenshuu forgets to give us Nappa's PL after his power up, it only states his "normal" power. They are not saying Nappa didn't get a boost, because he did and even Goku comments on that.
Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:08 pm
Either you can prove these errors are just mistranslations or you can’t, it’s as simple as that. I assume you can’t because neither you nor VegetoEx bothered mentioning every error the blog talked about to explain why they’re not errors, you just arbitrarily criticized the blog instead. And what are the odds of everything being mistranslated ?
I recommend you to check out VegettoEX's podcast episode that he linked before, I listened to it and they go over every mistake found. In the event that you don't want to or don't have time for it, I'll comment that they pretty much explain that the mistakes are stating a 2nd form as a 3rd one, or getting some dates wrong, forgetting forms, fights or events, or in which volume a character made its first appearance. The Nappa thing would fall under "states just his starting PL" category.
I believe they found like 16 errors in like a 1600 pages, which I'd say it is not enough to discard them as just bullshit, IMO.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:15 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:03 pm
Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:52 pm
Neko Majin is just a parody, it’s not meant to be part of the official story. DBS isn’t a parody, it’s a serious sequel to DB.
Exactly the response I was expecting. So you see, all about context. You can't really turn the situation into an oversimplification one, proceeding to safely say that "side-story" inherently judges that a work to be "non-canon".
Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:52 pm
My knowledge of DB games is quite limited and I don’t know anything about Dragon Ball Online.
All you need to know is that Toriyama was involved for five years in its production. With that knowledge, what say you about the game?
The problem is you’re comparing apples and oranges. A parody and a serious story that’s supposed to be a sequel are two different things.

No, that’s not all I need to know. I don’t know anything about this game or Toriyama’s involvement so I can’t make any judgment.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Rakurai » Sat Dec 28, 2019 10:50 am

Surai wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 1:08 pm

Although it’s true some things are a matter of interpretation when it comes to power level, the manga is quite clear about what happens when a character is twice as strong as another character. Whether it’s in the Saiyan or Namek saga, every time someone’s power level was even just a little bit higher than someone else’s, it resulted in a curbstomp. Back when numbers were used to define one’s power level, we’ve never ever seen someone being twice as strong as someone else and still having trouble defeating him. Even when Vegeta was more or less as strong as Zarbon (either slightly stronger or weaker, it’s open to interpretation) in their second fight, he was able to wreck him fairly quickly without getting injured. So why should we believe that Base Goku was twice as strong as Nappa if he needed Kaioken ? It goes against the manga’s own logic.

The fact blog used French Daizenshuu is irrelevant if you can’t prove those errors are just mistranslations. Just because the French Daizenshuu mistranslated one sentence, it doesn’t mean everything is mistranslated in it. Claiming repeatedly this blog is "poorly written" (what is this even supposed to mean ?) won’t change anything. Either you can prove these errors are just mistranslations or you can’t, it’s as simple as that. I assume you can’t because neither you nor VegetoEx bothered mentioning every error the blog talked about to explain why they’re not errors, you just arbitrarily criticized the blog instead. And what are the odds of everything being mistranslated ?

Yeah, linking this blog is "sad and poor manners", just like when you linked Herms’ tweets, I guess. You seriously need to chill here. There’s nothing wrong about linking a blog that compiles some errors made in the books. It’s not "sad" or "poor manners". It makes absolutely no sense to complain about that just because it’s doesn’t come from me. Besides it’s not even a question of arguments, it’s about what is said in Daizenshuu. Why would I need to tell it myself if it’s just an objective presentation of what is written in a book ? And I’m frankly a little bit annoyed by the fact you’re trying to take a moral high ground and pretending you’re teaching me some lessons. And calling my posts sad or poor manners just because I gave a link to a blog that compiles some Daizenshuu errors is clearly over the line, especially when you’re the one who lacks manners by disrespecting someone just because of a disagreement about a manga. I didn’t disrespect you so please, try to be respectful or else I will just stop talking with you. I came here to have peaceful, civilized and mature discussions about DB. I’m not interested in participating to a battle of egos and denigrating my interlocutors to "win" a discussion.

If Ten Shin Han is a descendant of aliens, he’s no more human than Goku, he’s an alien. An Earthling, but an alien nonetheless. Now if what said VegettoEX is right, it means the Japanese word for "human" has been used to talk about aliens, like Piccolo or Ginyu. So I assume in this context, it means "being/living being". But this supplemental info about Ten Shin Han’s descendants is not even suggested in the manga so just because a book not even written by Toriyama says it, that doesn’t mean it’s true. It would need to be confirmed by Toriyama. If the guy has a tendency of contradicting himself, why should we even believe something he didn’t state himself ?

DBS is canon because Toriyama decided it was. And he didn’t just let Toei do his thing, it’s his work as well, not just Toei’s work. DBGT is not canon because he decided it wasn’t and it’s not his work, even though he drew some designs and approved it back then, just like he approved Daizenshuu. He even approved Bardock’s movie and used his design for the manga because he found the movie very cool, it didn’t stop him from making his own version of Bardock’s story in DB Minus. Approving =/= stating said thing is canon.
Did I give you some link to an argument? I simply used Herms' translation as backup and presented my own argument and explanations. Not the same as you linking an entire blog which uses multiple languages and is formatted around somebody else's subjective PL arguments. I get annoyed at the same shit when ppl link me to other forum posts or YouTube videos with arguments that they don't bother presenting themselves.

The reason why I think it's poor and sad manners is because it blatantly shows you haven't given this much thought on your own. Me taking the time to explain and dissect a passage and type out a case only for you to end up linking me to somebody else’s argument is bullshit. Idc if you agree with the blog post to every last detail, at the very least you could've done is present the blog's points in your own writing and use its pics.

If you think that is taking the high moral ground, then I'm sorry you think that way. I just want to read the opinion and argument of the person whom I’m responding to in the Kanzenshuu website, not a third party.

Supplemental info =/= error. And if you agree that Toriyama doesn’t write or illustrate DBS yet it is still considered canon, but not the Daizenshuus, that’s just hypocritical on your part. How do you know that Toriyama didn’t look over all the Daizenshuus before their release? How do you know which parts of Super he wrote and he didn’t? The honest answer is no one except those involved in the production of that material will ever know. By your “author dictates all” logic only the original Brody script is canon and not the final version because it was edited by the producers, even though he approved the release of the film. No, the Brody film is the canonical sequel to the DBS anime/manga regardless of whether he wrote 100% or 50% of it at that point, because it’s been marketed as such. Just like the Daizenshuus are marketed and presented to be the DB encyclopedia.

If he decides to overwrite something he approved or gave his blessing later on, that’s called a retcon. We know that at the time, he decided to include movie Bardock in the manga cause his appearance was the exact same as that in the film, and it got retconned with Minus. That’s all there is to it. It’s nothing new in his playbook either. For that matter, with the release of DB Minus he also retconned his own work, because Master Roshi states Gohan found Goku when he was a baby (which he’s not in Minus). To add another one to that, Burma when she first met Goku was on summer vacation during high school, yet pre-DB Bulma was already attending university according to the Jaco manga (where DB Minus was presented and is tied to).
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:39 am

I think what might separate the 2 is essentially the fusees themselves.

In Metamoran Fusion Dance, you have to be synced together perfectly to produce the best Fusion, while Potara Earrings just smash you together and make the best Fusion. Equal in theory and potentially practice if you have the same set of fusees, though the dance can complicate things with its extra requirements.

Because Goku and Vegeta are so evenly matched and powerful, their Fusion, regardless of method, seems to be equally powerful if both are done perfectly. If it were something like Goku and Mr. Satan as the fusees in both methods, I think you'd see a big difference given how Fusion Dance needs more requirements like equal power levels and choreography.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Miracles » Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:19 pm

There's never been a clear answer within the series. However we know that a Broly arc Gogeta will smack up Future Trunks arc Vegetto due to power escalation.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:00 pm

Vegito >>> Gogeta

you have the original manga making that comparison indirectly

Potara fusion >>> metamoru fusion

Vegito ssj >>> super buu gohan >>>Gotenks ssj3

Gogeta ssj >= Gotenks ssj ... that is easy if you make the comparison of powers between trunks and vegeta in buu arc, vegeta considers trunks a worthy training partner while "goten" is on the same level as "trunks"

Gotenks as a merger metamoru has many limitations can not be transformed instantly .. that's why fat buu defeated him after training he managed to transform into SSJ3 but that makes the fusion last much less ... worse yet gotenks have to wait 30 minutes to merge again and then to transform into ssj3 you have to wait another hour

the z movie was fanservice ... so it wasn't important to follow that logic

the last movie can be rationalized in some way or a simple error of the author since goku and vegeta should have saved energy for the fusion otherwise the power of gogeta would not make sense

in short vegito is superior in general no matter what the horrible fanservice of DB Heros do

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:32 pm

Vomiting "fanservice" randomly throughout your post will hardly make you have a point, you know.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:00 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:32 pm
Vomiting "fanservice" randomly throughout your post will hardly make you have a point, you know.
that really just shows that we are not reading the full comments ....

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:00 pm
Gogeta ssj >= Gotenks ssj ... that is easy if you make the comparison of powers between trunks and vegeta in buu arc, vegeta considers trunks a worthy training partner while "goten" is on the same level as "trunks"
I'm sorry...but no, this is incredibly wrong.
As Herms' examination shows, there is no discernable difference established between Vegetto & Gogeta when it comes to strength. If the guides or even the manga ever attempted to peg Gogeta as being within the same range as Gotenks then this simply didn't happen. All sources either imply or outright state "Gogeta = Vegetto" so the claim of "Gogeta >=Gotenks" is absolutely inaccurate and an example of fandom misconceptions continuing to live on.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
Vegeta considering Trunks to be a good training partner means little, he totally could have easily killed Trunks in an actual fight.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 6:00 pm
Vegito >>> Gogeta

you have the original manga making that comparison indirectly

Potara fusion >>> metamoru fusion

Vegito ssj >>> super buu gohan >>>Gotenks ssj3

Gogeta ssj >= Gotenks ssj ... that is easy if you make the comparison of powers between trunks and vegeta in buu arc, vegeta considers trunks a worthy training partner while "goten" is on the same level as "trunks"

Gotenks as a merger metamoru has many limitations can not be transformed instantly .. that's why fat buu defeated him after training he managed to transform into SSJ3 but that makes the fusion last much less ... worse yet gotenks have to wait 30 minutes to merge again and then to transform into ssj3 you have to wait another hour

the z movie was fanservice ... so it wasn't important to follow that logic

the last movie can be rationalized in some way or a simple error of the author since goku and vegeta should have saved energy for the fusion otherwise the power of gogeta would not make sense

in short vegito is superior in general no matter what the horrible fanservice of DB Heros do
Goku and Vegeta are infinitely stronger than Goten and Trunks, that’s why their fusion is much more powerful. So whether it’s Gogeta SSJ or Vegeto SSJ, both would wreck SSJ3 Gotenks.
theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:07 am
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
Base Vegeto didn’t fight Buuhan though. That’s an anime filler.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Lionel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:37 pm

Despite the "news" of this similitude of power between the two fusions, I still can't help but wonder if Vegetto wouldn't win. Naturally they would have the same abilities and fighting style but as mentioned before, Vegetto looks to be wearing the protective garments from both Goku and Vegeta. It's a relatively small detail but one that could be an important decider when two fighters are deadlocked like this.

Also, with respect to an untransformed Vegetto dominating Buuhan, I think that happened only in the anime. In the manga he immediately transformed. There was an obvious social stratum of power between the two of them but I would argue it was a smaller gap next to the ones where one character is able to do absolutely nothing and their opponent can't so much as budge them. Freeza fighting Nail would be an example of that type of gap. Buuhan seemed closer to SSJ Vegetto than the Saiyan in his untransformed state, in my opinion.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:05 pm

Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm
Base Vegeto didn’t fight Buuhan though. That’s an anime filler.
Base Vegetto most certainly did fight Boohan in the anime which is totally canon to the anime continuity. Just because there are slight differences in continuities doesn't mean "they never happened" as there is no one 'true' canon that takes priority.
Lionel wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:37 pm
Also, with respect to an untransformed Vegetto dominating Buuhan, I think that happened only in the anime. In the manga he immediately transformed. There was an obvious social stratum of power between the two of them but I would argue it was a smaller gap next to the ones where one character is able to do absolutely nothing and their opponent can't so much as budge them. Freeza fighting Nail would be an example of that type of gap. Buuhan seemed closer to SSJ Vegetto than the Saiyan in his untransformed state, in my opinion.
Base Vegetto was thoroughly thrashing Boohan and only pretended to struggle somewhat against Boohan's massive Ki blast, Vegetto then stopped fooling around and ran while holding the Ki blast and kicked it into the upper atmosphere. A great difference in their powers was made even without Vegetto needing SSJ.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:36 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:05 pm
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:29 pm
Base Vegeto didn’t fight Buuhan though. That’s an anime filler.
Base Vegetto most certainly did fight Boohan in the anime which is totally canon to the anime continuity. Just because there are slight differences in continuities doesn't mean "they never happened" as there is no one 'true' canon that takes priority.
Lionel wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:37 pm
Also, with respect to an untransformed Vegetto dominating Buuhan, I think that happened only in the anime. In the manga he immediately transformed. There was an obvious social stratum of power between the two of them but I would argue it was a smaller gap next to the ones where one character is able to do absolutely nothing and their opponent can't so much as budge them. Freeza fighting Nail would be an example of that type of gap. Buuhan seemed closer to SSJ Vegetto than the Saiyan in his untransformed state, in my opinion.
Base Vegetto was thoroughly thrashing Boohan and only pretended to struggle somewhat against Boohan's massive Ki blast, Vegetto then stopped fooling around and ran while holding the Ki blast and kicked it into the upper atmosphere. A great difference in their powers was made even without Vegetto needing SSJ.
Okay, so I guess SSJ2 Goku can fight on par with Kid Buu, Goku was already stronger than Perfect Cell just after the end of the Cell saga even before reaching SSJ2 and Ten Shin Han, Yamcha and Chaozu were stronger than Commando Ginyu at the end of Namek saga.

If you want to take the anime continuity into account, you can’t mix it with the manga continuity, it makes no sense.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:57 pm

Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:36 pm
Okay, so I guess SSJ2 Goku can fight on par with Kid Buu, Goku was already stronger than Perfect Cell just after the end of the Cell saga even before reaching SSJ2 and Ten Shin Han, Yamcha and Chaozu were stronger than Commando Ginyu at the end of Namek saga.

If you want to take the anime continuity into account, you can’t mix it with the manga continuity, it makes no sense.
Where did I say "the manga & anime are symmetrical to one another"? I made note of the fact that there are slight differences between them but that they are both valid continuities. Whatever gripe you might have with the power scaling between them does not negate the anime continuity just because it plays out a little different than in the manga.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:57 pm
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:36 pm
Okay, so I guess SSJ2 Goku can fight on par with Kid Buu, Goku was already stronger than Perfect Cell just after the end of the Cell saga even before reaching SSJ2 and Ten Shin Han, Yamcha and Chaozu were stronger than Commando Ginyu at the end of Namek saga.

If you want to take the anime continuity into account, you can’t mix it with the manga continuity, it makes no sense.
Where did I say "the manga & anime are symmetrical to one another"? I made note of the fact that there are slight differences between them but that they are both valid continuities. Whatever gripe you might have with the power scaling between them does not negate the anime continuity just because it plays out a little different than in the manga.
Because you’ve made a categorical statement about Base Vegeto’s level, you never said you were specifically talking about the anime. You even talked about both the anime and the manga in your initial post. Whether the anime continuity has any value to you is not the question, it can’t be used when discussing the manga and it clearly looks like you were mixing anime facts with manga facts.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:21 pm

Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 pm
Because you’ve made a categorical statement about Base Vegeto’s level, you never said you were specifically talking about the anime. You even talked about both the anime and the manga in your initial post. Whether the anime continuity has any value to you is not the question, it can’t be used when discussing the manga and it clearly looks like you were mixing anime facts with manga facts.
This was my original statement you responded to.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
Where did I mix up the anime & manga here? I referenced one continuity but didn't state that I was referring to the manga or that the anime & manga are interchangeable enough to mix them together. That's what you concluded from it.
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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Surai » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:31 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:21 pm
Surai wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:13 pm
Because you’ve made a categorical statement about Base Vegeto’s level, you never said you were specifically talking about the anime. You even talked about both the anime and the manga in your initial post. Whether the anime continuity has any value to you is not the question, it can’t be used when discussing the manga and it clearly looks like you were mixing anime facts with manga facts.
This was my original statement you responded to.
If anything, Base Gogeta would destroy SSJ3 Gotenks since Gogeta = Vegetto and Base Vegetto pwned Boohan.
Where did I mix up the anime & manga here? I referenced one continuity but didn't state that I was referring to the manga or that the anime & manga are interchangeable enough to mix them together. That's what you concluded from it.
Your post was ambiguous. You didn’t talk about the manga and the anime separately, you just directly made a statement about Gogeta, Vegeto and Gotenks by using an anime fact.

But this misunderstanding between us is not important as long as we agree about the fact that we don’t know anything about Base Vegeto’s level compared to Buuhan’s in the manga.

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Re: Is There Any Difference In Power Between Vegetto & Gogeta Anymore?

Post by Lionel » Mon Dec 30, 2019 5:36 pm

Do you think Super's anime being deemed an "official continuation" legitimises the former anime of the classic series, theherodjl? The idea comes with some pretty bold, if not flagrant ramifications due to the number of creative licenses used throughout it.

Strictly from the lens of the anime, Vegetto shouldn't even require SSJ in that event. A standard Kaioken x2 burst would be enough to utterly humiliate Buuhan. Well, there's also the idea of Buuhan himself not fully unleashing his own power until after his opponent had already transformed.

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