What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

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What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by DiscountDabi » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:45 pm

Title is Self explanatory. Whether it be a new type of Ki or a trip to Yardrat what would it take for these characters to get to Goku and Vegeta’s Level.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:00 pm

A miracle.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:12 am

Catching up to the likes of MUI Goku & SSJBE Vegeta? They'd all need one hell of a boost to achieve even 1/10th of such power and that especially goes for Yamcha. Perhaps if an Angel put them through the most intense & complex training that that they could possibly handle then we might see the non-Saiyan Z Senshi mount something of a comeback...but the Saiyans will always be the saviors at the end of the day.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:19 am

Well short of a miracle, they need to do all of these things.

1. Wish on there Dragon balls to become saiyans or at least be able to have access to Zenkai boosts.

2. Train on North kai’s planet, actually learn the kaioken.

3. Ask one of the saiyans how to access super Saiyan and beyond.

4. Make another wish on the dragon balls, to give them immortality while within the room of spirit and time. So they can use and abuse that.

5. Go to yardrat, learn spirt control.

6. Ask elder kai to unleash they’re potential.

7. Perform the ritual, earn god ki.

8. Seek training from Whis and bam! They’re are pretty much caught up.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:15 am

Most essentially? They need an author who wants to involve them in the story. The current Toriyama isn't that person as he seems content to rehash the Goku/Vegeta duopoly every arc with a guest appearance of a third face here and there.

Piccolo would have the easiest time regaining his foothold. The greatest precedent exists with him as he had been keeping pace with the Super Saiyans at first during the Cell arc; all without any extraneous tools like the Kaioken. Besides that, maybe paying attention to the humongous elephant in the room that is the Namekian Book of Legends could also help supplement Piccolo's potential and power.

Now admittedly, the humans would find it difficult as they don't have any precedent and are working with the lowest bedrock power amount of anyone. Having said that, there's no reason why they couldn't be outfitted with things such as god ki, Kaioken, and potential unlocks. At the very least it could bring them up to SSJG standard, I think. From there you expand upon the Kaioken and maybe have the humans earnestly pursue the Ultra Instinct state. If they wanted to take it a step further then they could try implementing something that involves their sympathetic nervous system. I mentioned this before but other anime/manga have explored this concept of humans unlocking the constraints of their bodies and attaining a temporary state of heightened power, speed, and aggression.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:01 am

Learning Ultra Instinct? It doesn’t seem like it’s impossible for non-God-like beings, but perhaps they could reach something close to that technique.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Ssenrof » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:04 pm

Technically, it would be very simple and straightforward.

However, while it would make in universe sense, it wouldn’t be thematically satisfying. I can’t think of any thematically satisfying way to make humans ever catch up in pure power. Personally, I think they should catch up by being “Haxed”. Humans should learn techniques that leverage ingenuity and passion- Piccolo should master namekian Magic, or whatever the hell let’s namekians do what they do.


If you want humans to catch up to sayains- in pure power- here’s how you would do it in a way that makes in universe sense.
——————-
Reveal that Capsule Corp has spent the last decade working on and improving Dr. Gero’s research. They have combined his infinity energy generators with capsule technology. By using capsule’s spatial technology ( the ability to fit a mansion inside a capsule a few inches in size) they can fit 10,000,000 ( arbitrary number ) times the amount of infinite energy reactors inside the human body- increasing the power of artificial androids many times over.

Furthermore, Dr. Gero’s gene splicing technology has been modified to work on living humans. Allowing for humans to modify themselves to gain sayain, legendary sayain, universe 6 sayains, namekian, etc... traits.

If Dr. Gero by himself can modify regular humans( without training ) to being >>> Super Sayains and trained humans are god tier if they have geros modification. - imagine how strong humans can get with superior scientific modification, and genetic manipulation.

This is just using in universe human scientific & creative prowess to explain humans surpassing/catching up to sayains.

If we really wanted to be smart- we’d have humans use the super dragon balls to wish themselves immortal bodies, and who knows what else. It’s not like the super dragon balls appear to have many limits- if a human wished themselves to have Ultra Instinct, would it work? Or, wished themselves to have mastered god ki, etc....

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm

As said above, they could be haxed.

I've always wanted to see Tien combine Kikoho with Kaioken. He could also maybe figure out a way to use Multiform without it splitting his power apart. Maybe instead, Multiform could come with a different compromise, like maybe it increases ki consumption by 4x (if he's splitting into 4). It's almost like a different form of Kaioken.

Better yet, instead of a 4x increase in ki consumption, maybe it could be like 3.9x or something. That way, the proportion to the power increase (by virtue of being four of him) is proportionally greater than the ki consumption. It would be a net gain.

I also remember Tien doing this weird unnamed technique in Dragon Ball where he increased his durability dramatically. He was fighting Yamcha, and Yamcha's punches and kicks did nothing to him. The compromise to this technique appears to be that Tien cannot move himself while doing this, and that it's purely a defensive technique. It also appears to take a lot of concentration and stress, and it may even be a bit draining. Tien's skin turned bright pink, as if the blood flow in his body has something to do with this technique. We never see him do this again, which is unfortunate. What if he can increase his durability passed someone like Goku's durability with this technique, but also with the compromise this comes with?

As for Piccolo, well he can learn a bunch of magic. He already knows a bunch of magic, but almost none of it seems combat applicable. They could and should change this. With magic, the sky is the limit.

As for Krillin and Yamcha, I'm not sure. Yamcha has Wolf Fang Fist, which is clearly a ki-based melee technique, and I believe he's empowering his punches and kicks with ki as he is striking. What if he did some interesting things with Kaioken, where he can empower individual limbs with it? Unlike Goku who just multiplies his entire body, what if Yamcha simply did Kaioken in, say, his right hand, the moment he strikes with it? And he's able to alternate between empowering his left and right hand, and his left and right feet the very moment he strikes with these? And as it turns out, it is explained that doing it this way, greatly minimizes the stress Kaioken brings with it. He does all this combined with Wolf Fang Fist. Maybe in one hand, he can do Kaioken x 1000 or something, a multiplication Goku can't achieve with his whole body due to far more strain doing it the way he does.

He also has Spirit Ball. He can incorporate this sub-set of Kaioken into it. What if he could empower the ki ball remotely with Kaioken? He tends to use Spirit Ball as a sort of ranged melee whenever he uses it. That is, it hits someone, and keeps circling around to hit them again. Imagine he empowers the ki ball with Kaioken the very moments before hitting someone.

Lastly, there's Krillin. I'm kind of at a lose for him. Obviously he has Destructo Disk. As do many other characters, but it's Krillin's signature technique. He can do a lot with this, like learning how to guide it the way Frieza does. We've already seen him split one disk into many too, so image that combined with guiding it. Maybe he's good at splitting ki attacks into many, like what he does with Scatter Shot.

What if he learned how to split ki attacks of other people as a means of defense? Someone fires Kamehameha at him? He can just split it apart remotely. A bit of a stretch, maybe. But it's something.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Godo » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:29 pm

Disregarding the Super Saiya-jin powerups, the earthlings had some impressive power increases between the arcs, especially from the death of Raditz to the arrival of Vegeta and Nappa, where their power increased 8-9 fold at most. Going by the known training methods and also exponentially increasing the level (such as training with Kaio and later kaioshin etcetera) and introducing gravity training, they could indeed (an within many years too) reach a high level. A requirement would be unlocking of their latent power/abilities too, and mastering of some kind of power up such as kaioken.
If Roshi could reach some level or understanding of ultra instinct then the others should have been able to as well. So all in all, they could become ridiculously strong, but I doubt as strong as SSJ God and also that it may be impossible at their ages as well.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:07 pm

I'd be happy with meditation and training with Whis.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:57 pm

I don't think there is a need for them to catch up with Goku and Vegeta in my opinion. But hell if they don't need to be stronger than their current level. Just give Kaio-Ken to these characters (and the red-eyed transformation to Piccolo) already.

Though I wouldn't probably mind Uub getting near Goku and Vegeta. With the Ultimate transformation (maybe inheriting the god ki if that concept from the manga continuity is really a thing to go by), a complete training with all the masters Goku had and Kaio-ken at his disposal, I think Uub could get there. Well, all things considered, they could even pull a human transformation out of nowhere to give to him too.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:50 am

The only avenue that hasn't already been explored by Goku and Vegeta is the Ultimate power-up from Elder Kaioshin. It could offer some leeway to the humans -- certainly not enough to put them on equal footing, though. They would need every tool the Saiyans learned from someone else, minus genetic advantages like transformations, and then something more and distinct like what Vegeta is doing with his Spirit Control training in order to compensate. Potara fusion could really go a long way but then they would just be another Goten and Trunks who are dependent on fusion not just for power but identity too in a way.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Godo » Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:56 pm

I would like to add that you don't need to be a Saiya-jin to be able to reach great power, as we see with many other alien races.
Compared to other aliens, Kuririn, Yamcha and Tenshinhan have extraordinary power as it is already, so giving them some kind of boost wouldn't be as far fetched. I still believe that it's too late for them to reach this power after all this time just by training, although Freeza's power up seemed to work story-wise (not the 4 months of training, but his Golden Freeza transformation).

For me, unlocking Piccolo's potential would suffice for him (he should be the only one without having that being done before, right?) by him visiting Namek and their Elder, and for Kuririn ultra instinct and also training in Yardrat.
I believe that both could be super interesting characters if they perfected their Ki control, as Vegeta has done.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:30 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm
As said above, they could be haxed.

I've always wanted to see Tien combine Kikoho with Kaioken.

Are you trying to murder this man? Just thinking about that combo will kill him so hard, no number of dragonball wishes will be able to bring him back.

We could have them train with someone who teaches them special techniques that don't just rely on pure strength.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:00 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:30 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 3:58 pm
As said above, they could be haxed.

I've always wanted to see Tien combine Kikoho with Kaioken.

Are you trying to murder this man? Just thinking about that combo will kill him so hard, no number of dragonball wishes will be able to bring him back.

We could have them train with someone who teaches them special techniques that don't just rely on pure strength.
Imagine using Kikoho + Kaio-Ken + SSJ3 + Mafuba at the same time.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Psajdak » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:09 am

Nothing, they are done.
Currently, considering the power of opponents that matter, Piccolo, strongest among them is as helpful as Yamcha.

Some of them had their moments during ToP for good old days sake, but really, they stopped being relevant in 90s when Cell appeared during Piccolo vs 17 showdown.

Nowadays they are just around to make Saiyans shine even more.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Xeogran » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:54 pm

Train 4 months with Freeza. They are stronger than pre-training Tagoma, and we've seen how much of a boost this random henchmen of Freeza got. It would be cruel and demanding, but it would help.

Now they would need to somehow convince him to help them again...

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Alruneia » Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:42 pm

Since you specified "in a satisfying way"...
It's pretty much not possible for Krillin, Tien and Yamcha, the gap is simply too enormous. I don't see any good way for the current human fighters to be elevated to god-tier. ("Current" due to Uub.) There are definitely ways to do it, but I don't see any of them being generally considered satisfying.
For Piccolo, I believe it's possible to work something out. Perhaps the "red-eyed form" could be brought in somehow through lore expansion. Piccolo trains through meditation a lot, so maybe that could be relevant (Enlightened Piccolo?) in some way.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by SSJgogeto » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:08 pm

I don't know, maybe Kaioken and a little help from Elder Kai.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:16 pm

A continual stacking of long-time series regimens and techniques does seem convoluted if it's being churned out one after the other so suddenly. Toriyama has only himself to blame on this front because he neglected to continue paving their journeys out and instead decided to vaguely sign them up as part of the roster for the Cell arc without offering much in the way of substantive action outside of one or two fleeting moments that lacked any of the trademark fisticuffs used to validate a fighter's worth in this series. There wasn't even an attempt at a token presentation of them for the Buu arc, that includes Piccolo as well; former grand Namekian fighting prodigy who was mythologised as being a powerful contender against the Saiyans brought down so low himself.

What Toriyama should have done was continue from where the end of the Freeza arc left off by elaborating on the fruits of King Kai's training. The man could have written the humans as having acquired the Kaioken from the the Kai. In an attempt to compensate for the egregious power surge that Super Saiyan provides, the Kaioken could have been fleshed out and refined with the expressed intent of inheritably pushing its boundaries beyond where Goku left off from it. Maybe by the turn of the 3 year period all of the humans have acclimated to the x20 burst and are now pushing it to x40 and 50. An outpouring of Kaioken amplification couldn't be interminably held at the highest level for very long but it would be enough to bridge that chasm between base and transformed. From there you continue utilising this trope of shattering glass ceilings and elevating the technique to newer plateaus, just like with the SSJ transformation.

Kaioken is just one tool, though. You need multiple plot device stimulants to cohesively keep the humans in the running. A couple of options might have been doable such as retracing their old DB footsteps with training together. Maybe they could take up Goku's offer of collaboration as well. The humans keeping a relatable line of communication open with King Kai might have helped. His afterlife abode is still deemed usable for growth in Super. Lastly, there's the elephant in the room with the cyborgs. It's established no where in the manga that Krillin trained with his wife but that's without a doubt one of the most potentially effective options available. Krillin and Yamcha do share a friendship with each other. I think Yamcha has been in contact with Tenshinhan. Why can't they take of advantage of #18's altered genetic profile and build themselves up by sparring with her?

All of that just covers Z. Super presents its own set of challenges with the new transformations. The obvious solution there is to outfit the humans with god ki and have them pursue Ultra Instinct. I could see Tenshinhan achieving the state but the others might have to follow Vegeta's example in seeking their own paths.

Getting back to the original back -- it would be a confusing unloading of all these different devices for characters who have been out of the running for decades now. Toriyama could rehash #17's precedent for any of them but so far he looks content to continue with the Goku & Vegeta duopoly with an occasional guest star.

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