What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:59 pm

Super Earthling God: A powerup that makes ordinarily-useless characters from Earth strong enough to remain relevant for more than a single chapter/episode. :)
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:37 am

Transformation.

It's the only statisfying way for Earthling and Namekian to catch up realistically. I take also Toei/Shueisha/Bandai Namco into account on this statement.

Even better for the fact that Tenshinhan is probably not an earthling but a celestial being so he can have his own set of Transformation whilst Kuririn and Yamcha would have shared one and last but not least Piccolo would have his own as a Namekian.

Also for a merchandising stand point that would be awesome for Bandai Namco and other toy compagnies who do official Dragon Ball stuff.

I should go to Japan suggest them those ideas. 8)
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:55 pm

I think the answer depends on who we're trying to satisfy. Dragonball doesn't follow the logic of other shonen animes despite it being considered their progenitor. Even though Naruto and Bleach and One Piece and the rest inevitably push their characters in to giant tests of "power" each of those shows firmly establish that fights are winnable with things besides raw strength. Dragonball on the other hand only has one instance of teamwork overcoming a dangerous threat with every other arc depicting teamwork, strategy, and cunning as laughably pointless. Heck, the very first "intelligent" fighter we meet, Yamcha, becomes completely outclassed by the next arc (and it's only further downhill from there with him ultimately becoming the poster boy for what macho guys like to call betas). Anyone who demonstrates a fundamental understanding of combat throughout the WMAT arcs (distance, timing, knowing how to use reach) is always unceremoniously thrown aside before the real fight starts.

So if we're sticking just to logic of DB then no there's no satisfying way for the Unremarkable Five (I'm counting Chiaotzu because someone has to damn it!) to become relevant.

But if we're willing to leave the internal clockwork of DB behind then I think there's lots you can do to make them relevant.

Each fighter has a very distinct personality and look that makes it fairly easy to extrapolate how'd they fight if they weren't forced into the same MOAR POWAH! mold. Let's start with Yamcha because he's voiced by Amuro.

Yamcha is brash, upbeat, and loves animal motiffs. Before he became Roshi's student he wore the character for music and happiness on his clothes. So just go back to that. Have his Roga FuFu Ken really become a gale of howls and strikes. We saw with the sokidan that Yamcha is gifted at ki manipulation. Ki that Yamcha expells retains its shape and power even after colliding with something. Combine that with the Roga FuFu Ken to have ki wolves attack the enemy alongside Yamcha. Like in his battle against Tenshinhan at the 22nd WMAT where whenever he attacked for a moment we would see a wolf bite down on Tenshinhan's wrist before revealing it was Yamcha's hand all along. Do it for reals this time and add an extra layer of stank to the blow. The wolves don't just have a nasty bite that limits an opponent's mobility as Yamcha blitz them, they also bleed electricity or ki or whatever is wounds so that the victim's reaction time starts to suffer. It's not sporting, but Yamcha was a bandit at one point. Why shouldn't his skill set be on the roguish side?

This new attack also comes with draw backs. It's very ki and stamina intensive so Yamcha can't sustain the assault indefinitely. After each exchange he has to back up to catch his breath and also make sure the ki wolves are still functioning properly. Because they're just ki outside of Yamcha's body they don't have their own senses and still depend on Yamcha's concentration. They're basically just another set of limbs.

Krillin is a well meaning and demure guy who has spent his entire life at the mercy of people stupidly stronger than he is. So he developed the Kienzan, an attack that outright negates defense. Keep doubling down on that. Krillin is a pragmatist that looks to kill his opponent before any of them have a chance to go full power. Throw ki blades, expanding disks, disks hidden behind other disks, make it rain ki knives. And above all have Kuririn use the environment to his advantage. Make him the type of fighter who retreats to find a good place to hide. It's cowardly and completely against the spirit of Dragonball but it makes complete sense with the kind of bullshit life has thrown Krillin.

Piccolo has been God, the Devil, and what's basically a paladin. He's the perfect oppurtunity to bring mysticism back into the show. Remember Dabura's spit? Why not more abilities like that. Piccolo sanctifies the field bolstering his allies power. Alternatively Piccolo defiles the field making it so ki behaves erratically (something which would benefit him greatly in a straight fight. His body is naturally more durable than those of most enemies we see.) Piccolo draws a strange looking symbol and suddenly he breathes flames hotter than magma or his breath becomes so cold it freezes his enemies in place. Let him "gift" his ki to stone or mud, creating a golem that serves him in battle.

Chaiotzu is a psychic. Psychics should always be relevent because they bypass all outward defenses and target your mind specifically. And if that's too much make it so he can "punch" with his telekenisis. It's an invisisble, unsensable blow that even if it isn't particularly powerful will always catch their opponent off guard.

Tenshinhan is a no nonsense, master martial artist, and trained assassin. He isn't violent per se, but violence is something that should carry over into everything he does. When he attacks with his four arms technique, there's no reason each arm should be throwing punches. One arm should be grabbing or pushing on his opponent's arms to keep them from intelligently defending. Two should be throwing combinations. And the last should be looking for the clearest path to put a Dodonpa through (ideally near a lung or the heart). Also, why not hit the Kikoho right then? The opponent isn't defending for ki attacks, he's likely defending to melee attacks. There's no chance to move.

If Tenshinha can decide how much ki he puts into his clones they'd also be great way to attack. Give them enough ki to grab the oppnent and self destruct, or enough to throw out one full power Kikoho from an angle the enemy doesn't expect. All else fails the clones can provide support with Taiyoken and similar moves. They're clones after all and can take risks the real Tenshinhan wouldn't.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Yin Yang » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:27 pm

Tenshinhan
Tien would be easy to make god level, since Toriyama already wrote that beings with a 3rd eye are seen as godlike, but Tien can't access the myriad powers of his 3rd eye due to his evil upbringing. Just have him unlock that power through training, or elder kai's power. Other than that, he could improve Kikoho and dodonpa. The kikoho is a shockwave IIRC, than instead of it being focused on one area, make a omni-directional shockwave, weaker than the kikoho, but much stronger than normal ki-based shockwaves. Also it would hit in all directions, there's that. For Dodonpa, making it stronger and faster, similar to Frieza's death beam, would be enough.

Toriyama could make it so the 3rd eye clan are talented at spirit control, which would explain his multiform clones technique and his 4 arm technique. One of the powers of the 3rd eye could be it can see God ki.

Krillin
I remember reading somewhere that krillin breathes through his skin, which would explain why he doesn't have a nose. It sounds similar to Embryonic Breathing. Maybe he can get a power up by manipulating his breathing or something. Here's how another website defined Embryonic Breathing as a Wuxia term:
Embryonic Breathing (胎息 tāixī) – also known as Taixi or Fetal Breathing. A form of breathing without using one’s nose and mouth. Instead, the practitioner might breathe through their pores or dantian (for example). This is generally considered to be a highly-advanced Breathing Exercise which grants mystical benefits and brings the practitioner closer to nature. Often compared to how babies breathe in the womb (through the umbilical cord).
Piccolo
Just like with the 3rd eye clan, Nameks might be naturals at spirit control, which could explain their ability to turn into a giant and to use magic. By mastering spirit control he may do something similar to unlock potential. Babidi, Elder Kai and Guru were able to power up warriors a lot through magic, so piccolo might be able to do the same.

Chiaozu He's can use psychic powers, so maybe he could learn to use that to send subtle suggestions to his opponents, so it looks like he can read the future and he can always read the opponent.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by TheZFighter » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:44 pm

Some really interesting suggestions in this thread but I fear it is just to late now. Maybe I lack imagination but I can't think of a way you could give the C Team a big power boost without the majority reacting negatively.

Slightly off topic, I was a late comer to One Piece, compare to Dragon Ball which I loved since Primary School, but I think a large part of the reason I'm more into One Piece these days is because they found a way to have a main cast and keep them all fairly involved, by having your main bad guy but then a load of henchmen and underlings. This is what I always thought they should've done a bit more with Dragon Ball. Don't mind them not all being Super Saiyan level so long as they still get to play a part. Maybe that's why I liked that Tournament of Power so much...
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:44 pm

I would have said the same about #17 and Freeza but here we are years later and Toriyama was able to wrench them out of the gloom of irrelevancy and offer them new importance in some of the more recent arcs. Granted, they were largely blank slates with respect to their origins and capacity for power growth unlike the humans who had their journeys systematically mapped out since the 21st tournament arc.

We know Toriyama is going to some lengths to tug at the strings of classical Dragon Ball fervour. It's largely just a bait & snatch but even he may realise that having a nonstop duopoly with no breathing room or variation can make the stories awfully stale. Dragon Ball GT is criticised vehemently for this artistic decision. Sure, classic arcs like RRA were similar in their emphasis but we know that the humans weren't irrevocably out of the running for involvement. Krillin was active during the General Blue section of the arc and the humans were eager to get their hands dirty during the main assault on the RRA base. It wasn't a systematic negligence like GT had established.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:10 pm

Lionel wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:44 pm
Krillin was active during the General Blue section of the arc and the humans were eager to get their hands dirty during the main assault on the RRA base.
Total tangent but... poor Lunch looked so blue balled when they got there and the whole base was already a ruin. I felt so sorry for her lol
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:57 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:10 pm
Lionel wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:44 pm
Krillin was active during the General Blue section of the arc and the humans were eager to get their hands dirty during the main assault on the RRA base.
Total tangent but... poor Lunch looked so blue balled when they got there and the whole base was already a ruin. I felt so sorry for her lol
It was a rare opportunity to get Lunch involved in the action. Sadly, the hype surrounding the prospect of her, Yamcha, Roshi, and Krillin taking on the most dangerous military organisation at that time didn't pan out. I know Goku is supposed to represent this nigh unstoppable force of nature but the supporting cast could have had more opportunities to try their hand at the RRA.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:09 am

Lionel wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 2:57 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:10 pm
Lionel wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:44 pm
Krillin was active during the General Blue section of the arc and the humans were eager to get their hands dirty during the main assault on the RRA base.
Total tangent but... poor Lunch looked so blue balled when they got there and the whole base was already a ruin. I felt so sorry for her lol
It was a rare opportunity to get Lunch involved in the action. Sadly, the hype surrounding the prospect of her, Yamcha, Roshi, and Krillin taking on the most dangerous military organisation at that time didn't pan out. I know Goku is supposed to represent this nigh unstoppable force of nature but the supporting cast could have had more opportunities to try their hand at the RRA.
It made a decent gag so I wasn't too annoyed when I first read that section. Now when Toriyama reused the same gag in the Piccolo Daimao arc I was much less forgiving! i'd half convinced myself that Bulma's fantastic aim was going to become a Chekov's Gun type skill maybe buying a much needed distraction at a crucial moment. Oh well, missed oppurtunities.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by TobyS » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am

So given how 17, with no real old school martial arts training or kami kaio attention got to at least SS2 tier in the manga, I think androiding them up is the only logical way to go.

Obviously Ten at least would be too proud, but you simply write it so they have it done *to* them by a Towa type character.
If you say the boost from becoming an android is some kind of multiplier, you could plausibly say that they are as much stronger than 17 as 17 is the a regular human, that'd also pay respect to all the power they managed to gain on their own and give it a purpose.

If you also have a future/alien/demon type do it, you can plausibly say they are better at it then gero and they are even more strong than the old androids for that reason.

Say it doesn't combine or stack with Namekian and saiyan physiology (especially turning SS burns it out or something) and that stops them just getting it too and retaining the difference in power.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:51 pm

TobyS wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:06 am
So given how 17, with no real old school martial arts training or kami kaio attention got to at least SS2 tier in the manga, I think androiding them up is the only logical way to go.

Obviously Ten at least would be too proud, but you simply write it so they have it done *to* them by a Towa type character.
If you say the boost from becoming an android is some kind of multiplier, you could plausibly say that they are as much stronger than 17 as 17 is the a regular human, that'd also pay respect to all the power they managed to gain on their own and give it a purpose.
I'm still holding out hope for an arc where a human is fighting a super saiyan, they have a small monologue about how it foolish to think a human could surpass the super saiyan when even the gods have granted them their favor, then the smoke clears and the human is covered in "demon" ki. An android transformation would be badass but I figure the series is long overdue a genuine face-heel turn.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Rebel_Yeh » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:09 pm

DiscountDabi wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:45 pm
Title is Self explanatory. Whether it be a new type of Ki or a trip to Yardrat what would it take for these characters to get to Goku and Vegeta’s Level.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:02 pm

Well in the Buu saga I feel Tien could have maybe been able to become at least SSJ1 level if he was given a mini sub story about learning more about his alien race unlocking his true power after being inspired by Piccolo in the Cell saga or something, but now there is no way to have them all catch

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:06 pm

They can train with Whis and learn new techniques from Yardrat. Whis brought Goku and Vegeta up from not being able to touch Beerus to not only holding their own against him but in Goku's case, maybe even taking him down. If he can bring those 2's power up that much, there's no reason why he can't for them. On Yardrat, they can learn techniques that can be useful in situations that raw power can't fix. In Piccolo's case, he can go an extra mile and learn something from the elder Namakians back home. I kind of understand why they're not doing much with earthlings, but Piccolo ? he's a bottomless pit of story potential due to how different he is from everyone else. He also has a cape, why wouldn't they do something with someone who has a cool cape ?

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:18 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:06 pm
They can train with Whis and learn new techniques from Yardrat. Whis brought Goku and Vegeta up from not being able to touch Beerus to not only holding their own against him but in Goku's case, maybe even taking him down. If he can bring those 2's power up that much, there's no reason why he can't for them. On Yardrat, they can learn techniques that can be useful in situations that raw power can't fix. In Piccolo's case, he can go an extra mile and learn something from the elder Namakians back home. I kind of understand why they're not doing much with earthlings, but Piccolo ? he's a bottomless pit of story potential due to how different he is from everyone else. He also has a cape, why wouldn't they do something with someone who has a cool cape ?
I get that but at the same time the gap between the Saiyans and humans I'm pretty sure was very large so them learning spirit control I doubt would make them even SSG level. At best maybe they'd give Goku's base a good fight but that still means they'd be universal which is crazy. I agree however Piccolo should get more love, like that cape :wink:

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:24 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:18 pm
I get that but at the same time the gap between the Saiyans and humans I'm pretty sure was very large so them learning spirit control I doubt would make them even SSG level. At best maybe they'd give Goku's base a good fight but that still means they'd be universal which is crazy. I agree however Piccolo should get more love, like that cape :wink:
I agree it would be a hard sell to get the humans that strong but Piccolo's alien origins allows them to pretty much do whatever they want with him in terms of strength.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:29 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:24 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:18 pm
I get that but at the same time the gap between the Saiyans and humans I'm pretty sure was very large so them learning spirit control I doubt would make them even SSG level. At best maybe they'd give Goku's base a good fight but that still means they'd be universal which is crazy. I agree however Piccolo should get more love, like that cape :wink:
I agree it would be a hard sell to get the humans that strong but Piccolo's alien origins allows them to pretty much do whatever they want with him in terms of strength.
I think sequels to Dragon Ball and Z like Super and Gt should introduce new alien characters and what not as like new Z fighters. Tien, Krillin, Yamcha, their stories are all done and their powers limited. As much as I love Piccolo and do think it'd be cool to see him do cool things even he from a story perspective isn't needed per say. However they could do stuff with him

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Matches Malone » Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:35 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:29 pm
I think sequels to Dragon Ball and Z like Super and Gt should introduce new alien characters and what not as like new Z fighters.
Apart from Beerus and Whis, it seems like the powers at be are too afraid to change the status quo in any major way, so introducing completely new characters and developing them into permanent Z fighters (like what was done with Piccolo and Vegeta) is out of the question, at least for now. They could've used the Black arc's ending to keep Future Trunks in the present, but instead they sent him to another timeline...which already has another version of himself... :sick:. why bother destroying his timeline then if you're just going to send him to a copy of it ? :crazy:

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:53 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:24 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:18 pm
I get that but at the same time the gap between the Saiyans and humans I'm pretty sure was very large so them learning spirit control I doubt would make them even SSG level. At best maybe they'd give Goku's base a good fight but that still means they'd be universal which is crazy. I agree however Piccolo should get more love, like that cape :wink:
I agree it would be a hard sell to get the humans that strong but Piccolo's alien origins allows them to pretty much do whatever they want with him in terms of strength.
Yes and no. Sure PIccolo can accomplish a lot but the series needs to present Goku and Vegeta as being the best of the best as its made them its protagonists. So the power of their transformations needs to be so great that it leaves Piccolo completely in the dust otherwise they kinda look like chumps for depending so much on it instead of strengthening their base state. Saiyans go from being the ultimate warriors to gimmick fighters dependant on one thing to stay ahead of the curve.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by funrush » Mon Jan 27, 2020 5:56 pm

I like this question. It's a good exercise in writing.

An obvious way is to give them powerful new techniques. Chaozu's psychic abilities have never been expanded on. Krillin and Piccolo as the tacticians of the group can come up with new interesting techniques.

Tien can become much more powerful by exploring his lineage. He comes from the Three Eyed People which have never been explored. Maybe they have some crazy latent abilities, or they can teach Tien some of their historically important techniques.

Piccolo can develop some crazy new techniques, but there's also the possibility of him absorbing more people. They could do an arc where he gets a bunch of New Namek warrior disciples, and they unfortunately fall in battle and Piccolo gets a crazy powerup from absorbing them, both because they're powerful Namekians like Nail or Kami, but also because Piccolo would be upset he failed as a teacher and rage powerups are a thing in Dragon Ball.

There's also always the classic "unlock latent potential thing" that Toriyama uses in the Namek/Buu arcs but I think it's kinda cheap. However the way they're revamping that gimmick for Vegeta in this new Moro arc is really well done, because he's learning how to control his ki better. So maybe the humans and Piccolo can take a trip to Yardrat.

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