What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:25 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:53 pm
The series needs to present Goku and Vegeta as being the best of the best as its made them its protagonists.
They can simply change things up where other characters share the spotlight. In the original Goku was the protagonist, but that didn't stop them from changing it to Goku and Vegeta so the same can happen for Piccolo.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:56 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:25 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:53 pm
The series needs to present Goku and Vegeta as being the best of the best as its made them its protagonists.
They can simply change things up where other characters share the spotlight. In the original Goku was the protagonist, but that didn't stop them from changing it to Goku and Vegeta so the same can happen for Piccolo.
I have to agree with there being a protagonist besides Goku & Vegeta. The characters of DB ordinarily made up a pie that usually reserved Goku and then eventually Vegeta into being the largest pieces while regulating the other characters into smaller pieces. At this point though, some characters like Chaozu are so underused that they're mere slivers of a pie instead of even a small piece. Why exactly do such characters even exist if their usage & appearances just keep getting thinner & thinner and what justifies having introduced them in the first place? If Chaozu cannot keep up with the progression of stronger opponents then he should hold a more-strategic role against the latest foe. However, Toriyama & Toei usually decide against even that and demote him to being a background character that only appears whenever Tenshinhan is around but that's not a guarantee either.
There definitely needs to be a wider range for character growth & purpose in DB, the best way to do that is to at least have even the minor(sometimes, very minor) characters contribute to the latest fight in some way like in the latest DBS chapter.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:44 am

In the original Dragon Ball, Goku was commonly portrayed as the strongest and most capable but we know that the others could still show usability on the battlefield in some capacity or another. Plus, there wasn't the unassailable wall of Saiyan geneticism that determined one fighter's measure of worth while precluding all the others. Training masters like Roshi, Karin, and Kami could all, in theory, be sought after by the humans and trained under.

I'm concerned about the ramifications of this Spirit Control training. As stated before in other topics, if it's going to be rendered as this universalist source for odd abilities like body modification and healing then what's to stop the Saiyan Prince from taking advantage of that and rendering the others even more irrelevant? It's kind of distasteful, actually -- someone who venerates himself and his species as puritanical melee warriors with a disinclination for magic and odd powers suddenly becoming the equal or even superior to those who have dedicated their lives to those disciplines.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:15 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 12:25 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:53 pm
The series needs to present Goku and Vegeta as being the best of the best as its made them its protagonists.
They can simply change things up where other characters share the spotlight. In the original Goku was the protagonist, but that didn't stop them from changing it to Goku and Vegeta so the same can happen for Piccolo.
While I like the thought, I really don't think DB is ever going to manage that. Dragon Ball revolves around high level, combat based threats, and it features two protagonists who will not walk away from a good fight. Furthermore, Vegeta and Goku have been made omni competent so there isn't any facet or aspect of combat that they don't excell at. There really isn't any room for someone else in the story.
Lionel wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:44 am
I'm concerned about the ramifications of this Spirit Control training. As stated before in other topics, if it's going to be rendered as this universalist source for odd abilities like body modification and healing then what's to stop the Saiyan Prince from taking advantage of that and rendering the others even more irrelevant? It's kind of distasteful, actually -- someone who venerates himself and his species as puritanical melee warriors with a disinclination for magic and odd powers suddenly becoming the equal or even superior to those who have dedicated their lives to those disciplines.
We already had something similar at the start of the Cell Arc with Vegeta being the one to chastize the human warriors that they should hide their ki as Mecha Freeza approaches.

But I think I share your misgivings. As much as I like it from a character perspective it makes the idea of Earth with its deities, mythologies, and emphasis on spirituality suddenly feel so pointless. It's building up Vegeta by tearing down everyone around him which, after so many years of it, I'm kinda just over it.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Mireya » Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 pm

I think there wouldn't be a satisfying way for Krillin and Tenshinhan. As for Piccolo, it'd be easier to swallow. We had a good opportunity for the latter to become one of the front liners combatants again with the Namekian fusion that had been theorized by fans and made official in this current arc, but it seems it's just not in the plans of Toyotaro and Toriyama.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by emperior » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:25 pm

Mireya wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 pm
I think there wouldn't be a satisfying way for Krillin and Tenshinhan. As for Piccolo, it'd be easier to swallow. We had a good opportunity for the latter to become one of the front liners combatants again with the Namekian fusion that had been theorized by fans and made official in this current arc, but it seems it's just not in the plans of Toyotaro and Toriyama.
Maybe once this arc is over they will find a way to resurrect all the fallen Namekians, and the warrior will fuse with Piccolo in the future? It could be a possibility.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Peach » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:53 am

With Piccolo, fusion.

The others will never be able to catch up unless they learn new techniques. It's not exactly unprecedented for techniques to put a weaker opponent on equal footing with someone stronger. Hit's time skip, ultra instinct, and spirit control all do that.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Yin Yang » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:23 pm

Mireya wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:24 pm
I think there wouldn't be a satisfying way for Krillin and Tenshinhan. As for Piccolo, it'd be easier to swallow. We had a good opportunity for the latter to become one of the front liners combatants again with the Namekian fusion that had been theorized by fans and made official in this current arc, but it seems it's just not in the plans of Toyotaro and Toriyama.
Akira already gave hints as to how Tien could get much stronger, with his myriad godlike powers of his 3rd eye. I agree that Krillin doesn't have satisfying way to get to God level though.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:00 pm

We know Krillin is married to #18. Somehow #17 was able to go from being agonisingly grounded into the dirt by Imperfect Cell to threatening SSJ3 Goku in the TOP arc (manga exclusive). Why couldn't Krillin extensionally benefit from #18's altered genetics by training together? We also saw how Goku was able to boost himself greatly by mental image sparring with Z villains in the BOG arc. Why can't that work for the humans as well? Why is a trainaholic like Tenshinhan still metaphorically hanging his head in shame next to casual sparring trainees like Goten and Trunks?

Since they introduced the idea of genetically altered humans, couldn't they do something with Marron? People discuss the prospect of Uub coming into his own as a worthy fight contender for Goku but what about Krillin and #18's daughter? She should have inherited her mother's altered genetics, right? It could make for a potential career in martial arts very effective and fast-paced.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Yin Yang » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:37 pm

How would Krillin benefit from 18s altered genetics? I don't know what training Tien is doing, but it's probably due to him not having a teacher to bring out his potential, that he's lagging behind so much. There always the easy route, but I'm not sure Tien would take it. Marron inheriting 18s unlimited energy would be interesting.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Lionel » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:57 pm

Principally in the same manner as Piccolo benefitting from Goku's Super Saiyan form during the 3 year training period or Tagoma when he was subjected to Freeza's brutal torture affair.

As for Tenshinhan, all we know of his training is that he prefers higher elevations. It could be a meaningful benefit for him if there were any mountains with a death zone to them and extremely frigid temperatures. Well, more of a benefit than what he's likely engaging in at the moment that is.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:17 am

In real life the benefits of altitude training come in the form of improved stamina, speed, and recovery time. WIth your body in a permanent state of oxygen deprivation your body becomes much more effecient at moving blood and oxygen through itself. There are downsides like with every training method and (according to a fitness trainer friend) going too high can actually erode muscle development as your muscles literally suffocate while you train.

But that's irl. In Dragon Ball lots of things that should just fuck you up permanently actually help so I dunno. Maybe altitude training is the reason Tenshinhan can toss out twenty kikohos without dying.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Yin Yang » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:38 am

Remember Super Namekians and how they reach another level of consciousness, well can't humans do that? Also remember when Merus said that it's possible for some to reach extreme levels of power through, extreme anger, joy or sadness? Well maybe Krillin can get it through those angles.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:51 am

First I would have to understand what the point is to make them stronger? Toriyama let those characters fall to the wayside because he didn't need them for the story. Develop a story you want to tell first, then figure out what to do.

Meditation should be good enough, anyway. They need to refine their minds and spirits to raise their ki.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:59 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 12:51 am
First I would have to understand what the point is to make them stronger?
Because Toriyama (and now Toyotaro) keep bringing them into the story and doing ridiculous things like beefing up Roshi to SSJ levels. Endlessly reintroducing the human characters to have them brutally maimed/killed gets tedious..

Besides, Dragon Ball is basically anime pro wrestling. People want the characters they like to get booked to look strong. That's just the way it is.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by blacksymbiote » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:32 am

Magic basically. Magic allowed Bibidi to seal up Buu who was whole leagues ahead of him. It allowed Puar to stop a raging Oozaru Goku. That's the only way to even the odds I can think of.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:45 am

Kaio-Ken plus fusion. All they need to do is bring ex fusion over and then we can get Teincha and Prillin.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by QuakingStar » Wed Mar 18, 2020 3:00 am

Potential Unleashed, Spirit Control Training, Whis Training, and God Ki Mastery, then Kaioken Mastery. They would all then be in a different dimension of power compared to before and be much more relevant power wise.

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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by dbs fanboy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:51 am

Make them not catch up but give them some sort of undefeatable ability, like Krillin's Kienzan being able to cut everyone. You know how Hit (anime version) isn't necessarily stronger than Goku, but managed to kill him due to his jojo-like ability?, that's the kind of stuff i'm talking about.
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Re: What Would It Take For Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha to Catch up to Goku and Vegeta in a Satisfying Way?

Post by Psajdak » Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:54 am

The only purpose of humans is to endlessly recreate their Saiyan arc role.

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