No, Zamasu was never good.

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Lord Exor
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No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lord Exor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:16 pm

There seems to be this odd perception that Zamasu was at one point a noble character, and consequently, a corrupted or tragic villain. However, neither the anime nor the manga support this interpretation; the moment we're introduced to Zamasu, he's already censuring mortals and promoting genocide. I don't see how anyone can perceive such a character as anything but a ticking time bomb—a psychopath biding his time until the moment where he feels enough agency to act upon his wicked inclinations. He may dress his narcissistic delusions under the veneer of divine justice, but he's an unhinged nutcase that was likely begotten that way. I don't see what Gowasu saw in him at all, and that brings me to ask this: just what was Gowasu thinking?
"My dear friend, how can I make this even more painful for you? I could crush your hands, rip off both of your ears, or maybe I'll just smash in your tiny little cranium. Ehehehehehehehe."
—Frieza

"Superb, really! A very rare power indeed! But I go on and on. I am Lord of the Universe, nothing can stop me! Nothing, see? I remain untouched. You, them, you crumble, you die, but I--I live on!"
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:22 pm

Lord Exor wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:16 pm
There seems to be this odd perception that Zamasu was at one point a noble character, and consequently, a corrupted or tragic villain. However, neither the anime nor the manga support this interpretation; the moment we're introduced to Zamasu, he's already censuring mortals and promoting genocide. I don't see how anyone can perceive such a character as anything but a ticking time bomb—a psychopath biding his time until the moment where he feels enough agency to act upon his wicked inclinations. He may dress his narcissistic delusions under the veneer of divine justice, but he's an unhinged nutcase that was likely begotten that way. I don't see what Gowasu saw in him at all, and that brings me to ask this: just what was Gowasu thinking?
Mortals in the world of Dragon Ball suck. Like, in such an extreme way that it hasn't been possible to give a shit about them since we actually got to know them.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lionel » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:06 am

I think Zamasu early on in the anime could be looked at as a critical sceptic instead of a conspiratorial mass murderer. Ningen's cyclical inclination for warfare and strife coupled with the meaning behind the Kaioshins' role in the greater design were challenged based on a disputant's reasoning. Plus, in all honesty, in spite of his horrible actions later on, there was a modicum of validity at its fundamental core to his concerns -- the ineffectuality of Kaioshins to exact any meaningful change, ningen's dependency on godly implements for their survival (look at Goku and Vegeta), their compulsion for violence which not even the official arbitrators of enforcement, the Galactic Patrol, could squelch, ect.

If Zamasu had chosen to approach the whole situation from an entirely different angle, he might have garnered more sympathy and acceptance for his cause. There certainly are flaws with the make-up of the Dragon Ball universe which even others like Elder Kaioshin have pointed out (the earthlings violating the natural order of life with their usage of the Dragon Balls).

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:16 am

Zamasu was introduced as being distinctively strong for a kaioshin while being a kaio. That seems to be the only reason why he was in training to be a higher god. No particular quality, creational ability, or new cosmic ideas, just prowess in combat. Like the gigantic 14 years-old that trains with the 18 years-old squad, which seems to be what drove him crazy, so much power and wasn't even allowed to use it.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:25 am

The moment we are introduced to Zamasu isn't the moment he was born, though. The fact that he was a Kaio proves he was good at some point/in the beginning of his life. Otherwise he would be sent straight to the Demon Realm to be a Makaio.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lord Exor » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:21 am

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:25 am
The moment we are introduced to Zamasu isn't the moment he was born, though. The fact that he was a Kaio proves he was good at some point/in the beginning of his life. Otherwise he would be sent straight to the Demon Realm to be a Makaio.
It seems Zamasu somehow slipped through their fingers then, because the guy was an obvious psychopath. Anyone whose first inclination is to enact mass murder in response to a perceived problem is definitively deranged--that should have been Gowasu's first warning sign. I also get the feeling that the only thing holding Zamasu back was the knowledge he required to initiate his genocidal ambitions. He didn't hesitate even for a moment in killing that Babarian.

No amount of guidance would have stemmed Zamasu's inherent character flaws and psychological disorders, and that's Gowasu's tragedy; he possessed an unshakable faith in the mortal capacity for enlightenment, a philosophy I believe he extended toward his fellow gods.
"My dear friend, how can I make this even more painful for you? I could crush your hands, rip off both of your ears, or maybe I'll just smash in your tiny little cranium. Ehehehehehehehe."
—Frieza

"Superb, really! A very rare power indeed! But I go on and on. I am Lord of the Universe, nothing can stop me! Nothing, see? I remain untouched. You, them, you crumble, you die, but I--I live on!"
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm

But he was good. Gowasu literally says he had purity of heart. Also if he was never good then he wouldn't have been a Kai in the first place (and not just that, but a North Kai, which is a high-ranking title), he would've been a Makaioshin exiled to the Demon Realm at birth.

In the anime, Zamasu at the beginning was not promoting genocide. He asked Gowasu a valid question. After observing countless examples similar to that of Planet Babari, he noticed that mortals constantly waste their gifts on selfish things like war. He was a young Kai who cherished life, and didn't understand why countless mortal species squandered it. He saw how mortals are inherently driven by greed, arrogance, and violence and asked Gowasu why the Gods should protect them or even allow them to continue ruining the beauty of the cosmos with their conflicts.

Zamasu only advised genocide AFTER he had already fought Goku, and that was the turning point in his life. He was a troubled student who wanted to create a world of peace, but he always harbored doubts whether mortals could be trusted or not. Before, he somewhat tolerated mortals because at least he knew the Gods had enough strength to wipe them out. But after fighting Goku, after losing and being humiliated by him, he understood that mortals are not just ignorant creatures, but they actually had the arrogance and strength to humiliate a God, on sacred ground nonetheless. Given enough time, mortals could have been able to topple the Gods, and that's what Zamasu feared the most, and why he decided that mortals with their potential were a danger to the world of the Gods. That also showed Zamasu the failures of the Kais, because they created a mortal species that they could not control anymore, thus that's why they couldn't call themselves God anymore.

That's when Zamasu understood that mortals did not actually succumb to evil, but they themselves were the evil, and they spread that evil through war. That's also when Zamasu decided that he had to take matters into his own hands (especially since, very clearly, many Destroyers don't do their job, just look at Beerus' incompetence with Buu and Freeza). Ultimately, he was a well-intentioned God who wanted to restore multiversal peace, but the fear of mortal strength and his own shame at the failures of the Kais drove him to madness and gave him the idea that only he could restore the cosmos to its original beauty.

Also, Gowasu is not innocent either. He didn't tell Zamasu anything about advanced species like the namekians or the people of U3, he was all around a naive and gullible master who failed to set his student on the right path to enlightenment. That's why in the end he admitted that he also failed Zamasu.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:33 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm
Given enough time, mortals could have been able to topple the Gods, and that's what Zamasu feared the most, and why he decided that mortals with their potential were a danger to the world of the Gods.
And then SDBH has him teaming up with Hearts, a guy whose objective is to do explicitly that. :lol:
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:46 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:33 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm
Given enough time, mortals could have been able to topple the Gods, and that's what Zamasu feared the most, and why he decided that mortals with their potential were a danger to the world of the Gods.
And then SDBH has him teaming up with Hearts, a guy whose objective is to do explicitly that. :lol:
Which is completely in-character for Zamasu to do that, and you don't even need to mention SDBH.

Already in Super he himself admits the hypocrisy of his own plan, because he requires mortal strength to annihilate all mortals. He cannot deny the power and potential of mortals, and that's why he wants them gone. Nonetheless he also shows respect in some way for the Saiyans. Black was glad he could finally fight Goku, he said he was honored to meet him at last, and acted in a polite way throughout their first battle. At the same time, Zamasu also justified his decision to use mortal power by saying that he wanted to take Goku's flesh into his body so that he could forever bear with him the failures of the Kais.

Yes, in SDBH he formed an alliance with Hearts, who wanted to free mortals from the Gods. But obviously Zamasu had no real loyalty towards Hearts, he was just using him to complete his Project Zero Mortals. Once he outlived his usefulness, he would've betrayed him. It just so happens that Hearts anticipated his betrayal and acted first. His hypocrisy is what makes him a realistic villain, because most well-intentioned extremists are very hypocritical.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lord Exor » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm
But he was good. Gowasu literally says he had purity of heart. Also if he was never good then he wouldn't have been a Kai in the first place (and not just that, but a North Kai, which is a high-ranking title), he would've been a Makaioshin exiled to the Demon Realm at birth.

In the anime, Zamasu at the beginning was not promoting genocide. He asked Gowasu a valid question. After observing countless examples similar to that of Planet Babari, he noticed that mortals constantly waste their gifts on selfish things like war. He was a young Kai who cherished life, and didn't understand why countless mortal species squandered it. He saw how mortals are inherently driven by greed, arrogance, and violence and asked Gowasu why the Gods should protect them or even allow them to continue ruining the beauty of the cosmos with their conflicts.

Zamasu only advised genocide AFTER he had already fought Goku, and that was the turning point in his life. He was a troubled student who wanted to create a world of peace, but he always harbored doubts whether mortals could be trusted or not. Before, he somewhat tolerated mortals because at least he knew the Gods had enough strength to wipe them out. But after fighting Goku, after losing and being humiliated by him, he understood that mortals are not just ignorant creatures, but they actually had the arrogance and strength to humiliate a God, on sacred ground nonetheless. Given enough time, mortals could have been able to topple the Gods, and that's what Zamasu feared the most, and why he decided that mortals with their potential were a danger to the world of the Gods. That also showed Zamasu the failures of the Kais, because they created a mortal species that they could not control anymore, thus that's why they couldn't call themselves God anymore.

That's when Zamasu understood that mortals did not actually succumb to evil, but they themselves were the evil, and they spread that evil through war. That's also when Zamasu decided that he had to take matters into his own hands (especially since, very clearly, many Destroyers don't do their job, just look at Beerus' incompetence with Buu and Freeza). Ultimately, he was a well-intentioned God who wanted to restore multiversal peace, but the fear of mortal strength and his own shame at the failures of the Kais drove him to madness and gave him the idea that only he could restore the cosmos to its original beauty.

Also, Gowasu is not innocent either. He didn't tell Zamasu anything about advanced species like the namekians or the people of U3, he was all around a naive and gullible master who failed to set his student on the right path to enlightenment. That's why in the end he admitted that he also failed Zamasu.
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme. This exhibits a remarkable degree of inborn callousness, a personality trait that never would have been inculcated by Gowasu or any other Kai.
"My dear friend, how can I make this even more painful for you? I could crush your hands, rip off both of your ears, or maybe I'll just smash in your tiny little cranium. Ehehehehehehehe."
—Frieza

"Superb, really! A very rare power indeed! But I go on and on. I am Lord of the Universe, nothing can stop me! Nothing, see? I remain untouched. You, them, you crumble, you die, but I--I live on!"
—Frieza

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:13 pm

Lord Exor wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm
But he was good. Gowasu literally says he had purity of heart. Also if he was never good then he wouldn't have been a Kai in the first place (and not just that, but a North Kai, which is a high-ranking title), he would've been a Makaioshin exiled to the Demon Realm at birth.

In the anime, Zamasu at the beginning was not promoting genocide. He asked Gowasu a valid question. After observing countless examples similar to that of Planet Babari, he noticed that mortals constantly waste their gifts on selfish things like war. He was a young Kai who cherished life, and didn't understand why countless mortal species squandered it. He saw how mortals are inherently driven by greed, arrogance, and violence and asked Gowasu why the Gods should protect them or even allow them to continue ruining the beauty of the cosmos with their conflicts.

Zamasu only advised genocide AFTER he had already fought Goku, and that was the turning point in his life. He was a troubled student who wanted to create a world of peace, but he always harbored doubts whether mortals could be trusted or not. Before, he somewhat tolerated mortals because at least he knew the Gods had enough strength to wipe them out. But after fighting Goku, after losing and being humiliated by him, he understood that mortals are not just ignorant creatures, but they actually had the arrogance and strength to humiliate a God, on sacred ground nonetheless. Given enough time, mortals could have been able to topple the Gods, and that's what Zamasu feared the most, and why he decided that mortals with their potential were a danger to the world of the Gods. That also showed Zamasu the failures of the Kais, because they created a mortal species that they could not control anymore, thus that's why they couldn't call themselves God anymore.

That's when Zamasu understood that mortals did not actually succumb to evil, but they themselves were the evil, and they spread that evil through war. That's also when Zamasu decided that he had to take matters into his own hands (especially since, very clearly, many Destroyers don't do their job, just look at Beerus' incompetence with Buu and Freeza). Ultimately, he was a well-intentioned God who wanted to restore multiversal peace, but the fear of mortal strength and his own shame at the failures of the Kais drove him to madness and gave him the idea that only he could restore the cosmos to its original beauty.

Also, Gowasu is not innocent either. He didn't tell Zamasu anything about advanced species like the namekians or the people of U3, he was all around a naive and gullible master who failed to set his student on the right path to enlightenment. That's why in the end he admitted that he also failed Zamasu.
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme.
Yes, because he had already seen countless examples of mortals acting foolishly, and he himself says this. So again it's not something he came up with in 10 seconds, he actually had evidence of mortals acting in foolish and violent ways and exterminating themselves.

Gowasu's solution is also absurd, and you can just look at U7 to see why. The incompetence of Supreme Kai allowed Freeza to cause havoc across the universe, ruining millions of innocent lives. He had the power to kill him, but his precious laws binded him to inaction. It's easy as viewers to see where Zamasu is coming from when he says the Kais should be more proactive and take matters into their own hands, instead of relying on foolish Destroyers who don't know how to do their job. There's a reason why U7 and U10 had such pathetically low mortal levels.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:57 pm

Lord Exor wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme. This exhibits a remarkable degree of inborn callousness, a personality trait that never would have been inculcated by Gowasu or any other Kai.
And genocide, considering what the peoples of Dragon Ball are like, isn't really all that evil. Even the protagonists themselves shrug off the genocides of Vegeta and Freeza. The entire Dragon Ball is callous and amoral to the core. So it just seems weird to call out a god for noticing it.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:10 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:57 pm
Lord Exor wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme. This exhibits a remarkable degree of inborn callousness, a personality trait that never would have been inculcated by Gowasu or any other Kai.
And genocide, considering what the peoples of Dragon Ball are like, isn't really all that evil. Even the protagonists themselves shrug off the genocides of Vegeta and Freeza. The entire Dragon Ball is callous and amoral to the core. So it just seems weird to call out a god for noticing it.
Beerus and Zeno are even more obvious examples in my opinion.

Okay, Zamasu was mad, I won't deny that his methods were terrible, because genocide is bad in my opinion, always, but Beerus and Zeno..... I mean, one destroys entire planets if they make bad food, the other destroys entire universes because he is bored..... I think what's annoying here is the double standards of the narrative, because Zamasu is obviously painted as a bad guy for committing genocide, and yet Beerus and Zeno become friends with Goku even though they probably killed even more people than Zamasu and certainly for much dumber reasons.
My form is justice. And my form is the world. Worship me. Give praise unto me. Me, the beautiful, the sublime... Me, the invincible, the almighty and divine... All hail Zamasu.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:28 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:10 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:57 pm
Lord Exor wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme. This exhibits a remarkable degree of inborn callousness, a personality trait that never would have been inculcated by Gowasu or any other Kai.
And genocide, considering what the peoples of Dragon Ball are like, isn't really all that evil. Even the protagonists themselves shrug off the genocides of Vegeta and Freeza. The entire Dragon Ball is callous and amoral to the core. So it just seems weird to call out a god for noticing it.
Beerus and Zeno are even more obvious examples in my opinion.

Okay, Zamasu was mad, I won't deny that his methods were terrible, because genocide is bad in my opinion, always, but Beerus and Zeno..... I mean, one destroys entire planets if they make bad food, the other destroys entire universes because he is bored..... I think what's annoying here is the double standards of the narrative, because Zamasu is obviously painted as a bad guy for committing genocide, and yet Beerus and Zeno become friends with Goku even though they probably killed even more people than Zamasu and certainly for much dumber reasons.
I didn't include the gods because gods tend to steer conversations towards weird metaphysical questions (for example, if all the universe is an extension of God's will, how can he commit murder? Is it murder to forget a thought?) but yeah. Zeno makes the Colour out of Space look like a chump.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by sunsetshimmer » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:51 pm

He was as evil as every other DB villain. Just fooling people and what's worse, himself, that he is not. There was nothing good in his actions and he never had good intentions, even before meeting Goku. The only difference between Zamasu and villains like Frieza or Cell is that they didn't make excuses for being evil.

Actually even before revealing himself, he was already more evil than some villains like androids or Omega Shenron. Androids were created to kill Goku while Omega was born to destroy universe and kill all the mortals and gods. Those were like a purpose of their existence and they were not even questioning this. Zamasu made his own decision that was COMPLETELY opposite of his role in universe. He basically chose to be Super's equivalent of Omega Shenron. How would that ever make him good in any way? He was one of the most evil villains since the very beginning.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lionel » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:17 pm

What Zamasu needed was a discretional point of view on the ningen debacle and some nuance to a personality that had devolved into empty platitudes and ear-to-ear sadistic revelry of all the carnage he was perpetrating. For example, Zamasu could have taken it upon himself to venture out and give each species the benefit of the doubt by observing their ways more thoroughly. Some such as the Namekians and Yardratians could have demonstrated that mortaldom is checkered but does have some salvageable elements to itself. Although I think the Namekians' dabbling in mystical objects that defy the natural order would likely prompt a punishment of some type from Zamasu; perhaps they're devolved back to a more primitive state or something.

Something else that needed to be done was greater elaboration on the inadequacy of jurisprudence. Maybe Zamasu comes to the realisation that the Galactic Patrol is hindered too much by their own fear and lack of substantive involvement in the universe that he decides to either bring them directly the authority of the Kaioshins so they can be rebuilt or he replaces them with another enforcement group.

Those are just a few details but they could have gone a long way to making Zamasu less of a hypocritical tyrant and more of a world-weary reformist trying to do what he believes will benefit the universes most while inspiring the anger and discontent of others.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:04 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:51 pm
He was as evil as every other DB villain. Just fooling people and what's worse, himself, that he is not. There was nothing good in his actions and he never had good intentions, even before meeting Goku. The only difference between Zamasu and villains like Frieza or Cell is that they didn't make excuses for being evil.
I don't buy it, personally. Zamasu may be cruel but he's hardly on par with Piccolo Daimao who wants to destroy the world because it'd kill a few decades or Vegeta who chows down on species he's just genocided. Zamasu's anger actually comes from somewhere. Even if you think he's wrong to believe what he does of mortals, he's not just acting out to be acting out.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:06 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:10 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:57 pm
Lord Exor wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
He didn't merely inquire over why the gods persist in protecting mortals, he advocated taking direct action to end their folly once and for all. The second he began his tirade, the tea clouded, showing us that he wasn't truly pure of heart. How would he have proposed to implement such a thing without extermination? Gowasu only managed to halt further development of these thoughts by reminding him of his place as a Kai, invoking destruction as the exclusive domain of Destroyers. Nevertheless, it is clear that Zamasu's impulse is genocide; he doesn't even contemplate additional solutions prior to arriving at such an extreme. This exhibits a remarkable degree of inborn callousness, a personality trait that never would have been inculcated by Gowasu or any other Kai.
And genocide, considering what the peoples of Dragon Ball are like, isn't really all that evil. Even the protagonists themselves shrug off the genocides of Vegeta and Freeza. The entire Dragon Ball is callous and amoral to the core. So it just seems weird to call out a god for noticing it.
Beerus and Zeno are even more obvious examples in my opinion.

Okay, Zamasu was mad, I won't deny that his methods were terrible, because genocide is bad in my opinion, always, but Beerus and Zeno..... I mean, one destroys entire planets if they make bad food, the other destroys entire universes because he is bored..... I think what's annoying here is the double standards of the narrative, because Zamasu is obviously painted as a bad guy for committing genocide, and yet Beerus and Zeno become friends with Goku even though they probably killed even more people than Zamasu and certainly for much dumber reasons.
I've said that I consider Zeno to be a villain before.
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SupremeKai25
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:22 am

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:17 pm
What Zamasu needed was a discretional point of view on the ningen debacle and some nuance to a personality that had devolved into empty platitudes and ear-to-ear sadistic revelry of all the carnage he was perpetrating. For example, Zamasu could have taken it upon himself to venture out and give each species the benefit of the doubt by observing their ways more thoroughly. Some such as the Namekians and Yardratians could have demonstrated that mortaldom is checkered but does have some salvageable elements to itself. Although I think the Namekians' dabbling in mystical objects that defy the natural order would likely prompt a punishment of some type from Zamasu; perhaps they're devolved back to a more primitive state or something.

Something else that needed to be done was greater elaboration on the inadequacy of jurisprudence. Maybe Zamasu comes to the realisation that the Galactic Patrol is hindered too much by their own fear and lack of substantive involvement in the universe that he decides to either bring them directly the authority of the Kaioshins so they can be rebuilt or he replaces them with another enforcement group.

Those are just a few details but they could have gone a long way to making Zamasu less of a hypocritical tyrant and more of a world-weary reformist trying to do what he believes will benefit the universes most while inspiring the anger and discontent of others.
But he already gave them the benefit of the doubt, plenty of times. That's the thing:

Image

Planet Babari is basically at the end of Zamasu's journey. It's possible that when he first saw mortal dealings long ago he was much more forgiving, but at the end he was sick and tired of mortals repeating their mistakes and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Zamasu was both a hypocritical tyrant and also a world-weary reformist in my opinion. He didn't want anyone else to rule in the cosmos, he thought there was no longer a need for so many different Supreme Kais and Destroyers and sought to rule alone as the Supreme God. So he wanted to reform the administration of the multiverse. He didn't even want this for selfish reasons or because he decided one day that he wanted to be ruler of everything, he wanted this because he thought it was in the best interests of the multiverse. And he has a point, because often Supreme Kais and Destroyers bicker amongst themselves for petty things and are not able to deal with threats to the multiverse. Maybe the solution was not to have only one God watching over everything, but it is true that the current God hierarchy has a lot of flaws.
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:04 pm
I don't buy it, personally. Zamasu may be cruel but he's hardly on par with Piccolo Daimao who wants to destroy the world because it'd kill a few decades or Vegeta who chows down on species he's just genocided. Zamasu's anger actually comes from somewhere. Even if you think he's wrong to believe what he does of mortals, he's not just acting out to be acting out.
Yeah, they are not even comparable. Piccolo Daimao is basically pure evil, Zamasu was good and pure of heart once and was driven by good intentions. Vegeta if anything proves Zamasu's point, because he was greedy and seduced by his desire for power and ended up slaughtering an entire civilian stadium.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Hulk10 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:22 am
Lionel wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:17 pm
What Zamasu needed was a discretional point of view on the ningen debacle and some nuance to a personality that had devolved into empty platitudes and ear-to-ear sadistic revelry of all the carnage he was perpetrating. For example, Zamasu could have taken it upon himself to venture out and give each species the benefit of the doubt by observing their ways more thoroughly. Some such as the Namekians and Yardratians could have demonstrated that mortaldom is checkered but does have some salvageable elements to itself. Although I think the Namekians' dabbling in mystical objects that defy the natural order would likely prompt a punishment of some type from Zamasu; perhaps they're devolved back to a more primitive state or something.

Something else that needed to be done was greater elaboration on the inadequacy of jurisprudence. Maybe Zamasu comes to the realisation that the Galactic Patrol is hindered too much by their own fear and lack of substantive involvement in the universe that he decides to either bring them directly the authority of the Kaioshins so they can be rebuilt or he replaces them with another enforcement group.

Those are just a few details but they could have gone a long way to making Zamasu less of a hypocritical tyrant and more of a world-weary reformist trying to do what he believes will benefit the universes most while inspiring the anger and discontent of others.
But he already gave them the benefit of the doubt, plenty of times. That's the thing:

Image

Planet Babari is basically at the end of Zamasu's journey. It's possible that when he first saw mortal dealings long ago he was much more forgiving, but at the end he was sick and tired of mortals repeating their mistakes and decided to take matters into his own hands.

Zamasu was both a hypocritical tyrant and also a world-weary reformist in my opinion. He didn't want anyone else to rule in the cosmos, he thought there was no longer a need for so many different Supreme Kais and Destroyers and sought to rule alone as the Supreme God. So he wanted to reform the administration of the multiverse. He didn't even want this for selfish reasons or because he decided one day that he wanted to be ruler of everything, he wanted this because he thought it was in the best interests of the multiverse. And he has a point, because often Supreme Kais and Destroyers bicker amongst themselves for petty things and are not able to deal with threats to the multiverse. Maybe the solution was not to have only one God watching over everything, but it is true that the current God hierarchy has a lot of flaws.
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:04 pm
I don't buy it, personally. Zamasu may be cruel but he's hardly on par with Piccolo Daimao who wants to destroy the world because it'd kill a few decades or Vegeta who chows down on species he's just genocided. Zamasu's anger actually comes from somewhere. Even if you think he's wrong to believe what he does of mortals, he's not just acting out to be acting out.
Yeah, they are not even comparable. Piccolo Daimao is basically pure evil, Zamasu was good and pure of heart once and was driven by good intentions. Vegeta if anything proves Zamasu's point, because he was greedy and seduced by his desire for power and ended up slaughtering an entire civilian stadium.
Your analysis is well done I'd say.
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