No, Zamasu was never good.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:33 pm

I will concede that he probably did have good intentions in the beginning, which was why he could be an angel to begin with, but he jumped off the slippery slope of the DB universe/morality.

Lionel wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:06 am
In all honesty, in spite of his horrible actions later on, there was a modicum of validity at its fundamental core to his concerns -- the ineffectuality of Kaioshins to exact any meaningful change, ningen's dependency on godly implements for their survival (look at Goku and Vegeta), their compulsion for violence which not even the official arbitrators of enforcement, the Galactic Patrol, could squelch, ect.

If Zamasu had chosen to approach the whole situation from an entirely different angle, he might have garnered more sympathy and acceptance for his cause. There certainly are flaws with the make-up of the Dragon Ball universe which even others like Elder Kaioshin have pointed out (the earthlings violating the natural order of life with their usage of the Dragon Balls).
I have to agree. :thumbup:
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:03 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:21 pm
But he was good. Gowasu literally says he had purity of heart. Also if he was never good then he wouldn't have been a Kai in the first place (and not just that, but a North Kai, which is a high-ranking title), he would've been a Makaioshin exiled to the Demon Realm at birth.

In the anime, Zamasu at the beginning was not promoting genocide. He asked Gowasu a valid question. After observing countless examples similar to that of Planet Babari, he noticed that mortals constantly waste their gifts on selfish things like war. He was a young Kai who cherished life, and didn't understand why countless mortal species squandered it. He saw how mortals are inherently driven by greed, arrogance, and violence and asked Gowasu why the Gods should protect them or even allow them to continue ruining the beauty of the cosmos with their conflicts.
The problem is that it makes no sense to judge the worth of all humans of all universes because a single race has not prospered. Perhaps Zamasu has seen the fate of other races (something that has not been shown), but it is very little for someone who wanted to exterminate all existing life. He was crazy from the start
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:46 pm
At the same time, Zamasu also justified his decision to use mortal power by saying that he wanted to take Goku's flesh into his body so that he could forever bear with him the failures of the Kais.
That was just an excuse for taking the body of a mortal to complete the plan (which was to wipe them out). He was basically trying to justify his hypocrisy

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 2:25 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:03 am

The problem is that it makes no sense to judge the worth of all humans of all universes because a single race has not prospered. Perhaps Zamasu has seen the fate of other races (something that has not been shown), but it is very little for someone who wanted to exterminate all existing life. He was crazy from the start
We are not shown he saw other races but we are told that. The babarians were not the first species he saw. Indeed, his doubts about humanity stem from the fact that he saw many examples of mortals constantly repeating the same mistakes over and over again. That's why he doubted their worth in the first place.
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:46 pm
That was just an excuse for taking the body of a mortal to complete the plan (which was to wipe them out). He was basically trying to justify his hypocrisy.
Sure. I did not make that point to defend Zamasu's actions but to point out how he did not do things randomly. He switched bodies with Goku for two very specific reasons: 1) Because he wanted revenge for the humiliation he suffered and 2) Because Saiyans were the ultimate example of the failure of the Kais and he wanted to embed that mistake into his flesh.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am

Zamasu as a character was written in a story that wasn't allowed the proper time to develop and build up to his eventual snap. Yuyu hakusho has a similar character but the difference is that the arc he showed up in was well written which allowed the viewer to understand why such a character would change like that.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:56 pm

He started out with good intentions but when he gave in to his dark impulses that's when he became evil.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:01 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am
Zamasu as a character was written in a story that wasn't allowed the proper time to develop and build up to his eventual snap. Yuyu hakusho has a similar character but the difference is that the arc he showed up in was well written which allowed the viewer to understand why such a character would change like that.
Would you say that Dragon Ball's discomfort with staying away from the main cast for too long hurt Zamasu's arc? Like if we had been allowed to follow just him for a few episodes and see the afterlife beauracracy at work, that might have helped the story?
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:26 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:01 pm
Would you say that Dragon Ball's discomfort with staying away from the main cast for too long hurt Zamasu's arc? Like if we had been allowed to follow just him for a few episodes and see the afterlife beauracracy at work, that might have helped the story?
I think things would've been better if we were allowed to see the good side of him for awhile followed by multiple bad events that lead to his downfall. The arc simply didn't have enough time to pull off such an arc.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:45 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:01 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am
Zamasu as a character was written in a story that wasn't allowed the proper time to develop and build up to his eventual snap. Yuyu hakusho has a similar character but the difference is that the arc he showed up in was well written which allowed the viewer to understand why such a character would change like that.
Would you say that Dragon Ball's discomfort with staying away from the main cast for too long hurt Zamasu's arc? Like if we had been allowed to follow just him for a few episodes and see the afterlife beauracracy at work, that might have helped the story?
It's not really a problem of the main cast. Nagato/Pain from Naruto is an amazing morally grey villain, but much like Zamasu he is not part of the main cast and he never appeared in the show until his arc (aside from a few cameos here and there). Even in the arc itself, he doesn't really have a lot of screentime aside from the main fights of the arc.

What's different here though is that you see flashbacks to Nagato's past so you can better see how he developed into a flawed character. DBS didn't do that with Zamasu, it suffers from the classic problem of telling something, but not showing it.

We know that Zamasu already saw many examples like Planet Babari -- So show them. Because at the end of the day, that's where the idea that "Zamasu snapped only because of one planet" stems from. If they had instead devoted a few episodes to showing a younger Zamasu and his first dealings with mortals, then that would've fleshed him out much more. Maybe his first interactions with mortals ended in tragedy (he could've lost someone very important to him) and that's where his doubt and hatred began. In the anime we see the two main events that lead to his downfall (Goku humiliating him and the failures of the Babari), and the narrative does act like these are turning points in Zamasu's life. This idea could've been driven home better if Zamasu had been shown in a more optimistic and positive behaviour.

Ultimately however I don't think his character is ruined or suffers because of that. Sure it would've been fascinating to learn more about his past, but I still think his ideals and personality are very unique and relatable. Now, I am not a God, but if I had the power to stop evil and someone told me to do nothing because that's what the law wants.... then I wouldn't. I would use that power to stop evil. From this point of view, Zamasu is completely understandable. The problem is that he came to the wrong conclusion that evil = all mortals, and well the rest is history.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 4:23 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:45 am
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 11:01 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am
Zamasu as a character was written in a story that wasn't allowed the proper time to develop and build up to his eventual snap. Yuyu hakusho has a similar character but the difference is that the arc he showed up in was well written which allowed the viewer to understand why such a character would change like that.
Would you say that Dragon Ball's discomfort with staying away from the main cast for too long hurt Zamasu's arc? Like if we had been allowed to follow just him for a few episodes and see the afterlife beauracracy at work, that might have helped the story?
It's not really a problem of the main cast. Nagato/Pain from Naruto is an amazing morally grey villain, but much like Zamasu he is not part of the main cast and he never appeared in the show until his arc (aside from a few cameos here and there). Even in the arc itself, he doesn't really have a lot of screentime aside from the main fights of the arc.

What's different here though is that you see flashbacks to Nagato's past so you can better see how he developed into a flawed character. DBS didn't do that with Zamasu, it suffers from the classic problem of telling something, but not showing it.

We know that Zamasu already saw many examples like Planet Babari -- So show them. Because at the end of the day, that's where the idea that "Zamasu snapped only because of one planet" stems from. If they had instead devoted a few episodes to showing a younger Zamasu and his first dealings with mortals, then that would've fleshed him out much more. Maybe his first interactions with mortals ended in tragedy (he could've lost someone very important to him) and that's where his doubt and hatred began. In the anime we see the two main events that lead to his downfall (Goku humiliating him and the failures of the Babari), and the narrative does act like these are turning points in Zamasu's life. This idea could've been driven home better if Zamasu had been shown in a more optimistic and positive behaviour.

Ultimately however I don't think his character is ruined or suffers because of that. Sure it would've been fascinating to learn more about his past, but I still think his ideals and personality are very unique and relatable. Now, I am not a God, but if I had the power to stop evil and someone told me to do nothing because that's what the law wants.... then I wouldn't. I would use that power to stop evil. From this point of view, Zamasu is completely understandable. The problem is that he came to the wrong conclusion that evil = all mortals, and well the rest is history.
Very astute observations.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:53 pm

"You mortals disgust me for all the killing you do...I'LL KILL YOU FOR THAT!"

Evil or not, he's definitely a dumbass.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:51 am

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:53 pm
"You mortals disgust me for all the killing you do...I'LL KILL YOU FOR THAT!"

Evil or not, he's definitely a dumbass.
Not really. In his mind it's the same as saying "I hate these evil orcs who spread violence and war, so I will kill them all to free the cosmos of their warmongering ways." Which is a logic that good guys always apply, especially in high fantasy fiction where there are indeed some races that are chaotic evil and so nobody cares about genociding them. Do Goku and co. give a shit about the hundreds of evil Freeza minions they kill? No, because in their mind they are just bad guys who deserve nothing better. Same thing with Zamasu.

Also all Dragon Ball villains with a personality are big hypocrites:

Vegeta: "I am the Saiyan Prince, I am the strongest, I have the right to rule over you weaklings and you should accept it."
Also Vegeta: Refuses to give up when he is clearly weaker than Freeza.

Freeza: "Dyspo you're such a coward, all you can do is run away."
Also Freeza: Always tries to destroy everything when he starts losing.

Cell, after losing to SSJ2 Gohan: "YOU ARE A MONSTER!"
Also Cell: Literally eats people alive and wants to destroy the entire universe.

Super Buu: "You're a cheater because you fused."
Also Super Buu: Fused with multiple people and bragged about it.

Baby: "I hate the Saiyans because they are evil warmongering brutes who crush the weak."
Also Baby: Feels entitled to conquer the entire universe with his army of brain-washed humans.

At least Zamasu acknowledged his hypocrisy, such as when he reflected on the irony of needing mortal powers to achieve his plan.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:51 am
Also all Dragon Ball villains with a personality are big hypocrites:

Vegeta: "I am the Saiyan Prince, I am the strongest, I have the right to rule over you weaklings and you should accept it."
Also Vegeta: Refuses to give up when he is clearly weaker than Freeza.

Freeza: "Dyspo you're such a coward, all you can do is run away."
Also Freeza: Always tries to destroy everything when he starts losing.

Cell, after losing to SSJ2 Gohan: "YOU ARE A MONSTER!"
Also Cell: Literally eats people alive and wants to destroy the entire universe.

Super Buu: "You're a cheater because you fused."
Also Super Buu: Fused with multiple people and bragged about it.

Baby: "I hate the Saiyans because they are evil warmongering brutes who crush the weak."
Also Baby: Feels entitled to conquer the entire universe with his army of brain-washed humans.

At least Zamasu acknowledged his hypocrisy, such as when he reflected on the irony of needing mortal powers to achieve his plan.
Acknowledging hypocrisy doesn't make one less a hypocrite.

You could argue that he's anti-heroic because the DB universe is a mess run by terrible gods, but he murdered innocents along with the guilty, including Goku's wife and child. With that kind of judgement he crossed the line.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:22 am

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 am
Acknowledging hypocrisy doesn't make one less a hypocrite.

You could argue that he's anti-heroic because the DB universe is a mess run by terrible gods, but he murdered innocents along with the guilty, including Goku's wife and child. With that kind of judgement he crossed the line.
I didn't say that made him less of a hypocrite but at least it makes him a lot more self-aware than other villains.

Also I am not sure why you are reminding me that he did horrible things, because I never defended his actions. I am just rationalizing his thoughts and pointing out how he was not, in fact, always evil.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:40 am

I don't know where he stands. I think he was somewhat "good/decent" in his early age when his mind wasn't yet tainted with vice but he obviously had a lot of potential to become evil one day because he is a fascist. He is also self-centered and obstinate.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Kokonoe » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:27 am

I thought that whole drink test was just to prove everthing Gowasu did was flawed in hindsight and that he should've been using his noggin

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:34 pm

Scientist Fu wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:40 am
I don't know where he stands. I think he was somewhat "good/decent" in his early age when his mind wasn't yet tainted with vice but he obviously had a lot of potential to become evil one day because he is a fascist. He is also self-centered and obstinate.
The Dragon Ball universe is run be a deranged child god and his army of twink caretakers. The gods' handpicked champions are invariably borderline psychotic bloodknights who only just manage to keep themselves from destroying entire worlds in their squabbles. Fascism looks like a sunny meadow compared to that.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:13 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:34 pm
Scientist Fu wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:40 am
I don't know where he stands. I think he was somewhat "good/decent" in his early age when his mind wasn't yet tainted with vice but he obviously had a lot of potential to become evil one day because he is a fascist. He is also self-centered and obstinate.
The Dragon Ball universe is run be a deranged child god and his army of twink caretakers. The gods' handpicked champions are invariably borderline psychotic bloodknights who only just manage to keep themselves from destroying entire worlds in their squabbles. Fascism looks like a sunny meadow compared to that.
Pretty good description of the current state of the God hierarchy. The funny thing is that Zamasu is so evil and ugly and hearthless and mad while Zeno, who literally erased 6 universes for no reason at all, is treated as a dear friend by Goku.

As Hearts from Heroes would say "No one should wield such power". They really need to introduce a mortal who points out the flaws of giving omni power to a deranged child.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:48 pm

Zeno is neutral, he is above everything, good and evil. And he has no bad intentions. We can't compare Zamasu with Zeno.

I will also add that Zeno wants the improvement of his creations, we see it at the TOP. So he eliminates the Universes which does not progress enough for his taste.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:24 pm

We saw how Zeno wanted to improve his creations when he erased 6 universes because he was angry one day or when he literally destroys random planets as part of a board game.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:25 pm

It doesn't contradict what I already said. Zeno behaves like a child, he acts on a whim. Those are the reasons why he has his bodyguards and the Grand Priest by his side. The latter is his most loyal advisor and helps him to channel his whims. But as a supreme God and especially a demiurge, he is beyond good and evil. It is about the "God works in mysterious ways".

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