No, Zamasu was never good.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:53 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:12 pm
Lets not forget that Beerus blew up half that planet because those alien folk actually tried to poison him but it didn't work (obviously). On top of the food not being that great and they were probably shitty people too.

While never fully explored (yet and maybe not at all) there seems to be some sort of method to Beerus' madness, he's not a mostly mindless killing machine like Boo. Remember it was he who designated or atleast gave Freeza the Green Light to destroy Planet Vegeta because despite the Broly Movie and Minus depicting the saiyans as somewhat of a rational race of people, lets keep in mind that they are blood thirsty savages for them most part, the "good" saiyans were killed off by their own kind. He even considered snuffing out Freeza himself but didn't get around to it/ never got a chance too.

He's quick tempered and kinda lousy at his job but Beerus aint evil, he and Whis are more neutral than anything.
This. The sense I get from him is that he wants people to think he's impetuous.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Block88 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:42 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:24 pm
The Gods are selfish. If Zamasu had limited Project Zero Mortals to U7 and U10, they probably would not have even intervened. They did no do anything when U7 was ravaged by Buu and Freeza. They are proactive only when their universes are concerned.

Speaking of which, we never saw what Zamasu did in the other universes, what a shame. We only know he had already purged a high number of mortal civilizations before coming to Earth.
And why would they need? That’s beerus job

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:53 am

Killing Boo and Freeza would indeed have been Beerus’ duty, and he was slacking off and taking naps instead of getting up and doing something. That definitely reflects poorly on him as a person and as a god, but it hardly puts him on the same level as Zamasu. Besides, Beerus did mention in BoG that he was planning on doing something about Freeza before he found out that he was already dead, so there’s that.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 07, 2020 1:36 am

Block88 wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:42 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:24 pm
The Gods are selfish. If Zamasu had limited Project Zero Mortals to U7 and U10, they probably would not have even intervened. They did no do anything when U7 was ravaged by Buu and Freeza. They are proactive only when their universes are concerned.

Speaking of which, we never saw what Zamasu did in the other universes, what a shame. We only know he had already purged a high number of mortal civilizations before coming to Earth.
And why would they need? That’s beerus job
That's kinda my problem. Sure it's your coworker's job to clean the break room but there's cheese all over the counter and the microwave is smelling six kinds of funky. If your coworker has been MIA for a month now, someone's going to have to bite the bullet or bring it up with management.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:46 am

Block88 wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:42 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:24 pm
The Gods are selfish. If Zamasu had limited Project Zero Mortals to U7 and U10, they probably would not have even intervened. They did no do anything when U7 was ravaged by Buu and Freeza. They are proactive only when their universes are concerned.

Speaking of which, we never saw what Zamasu did in the other universes, what a shame. We only know he had already purged a high number of mortal civilizations before coming to Earth.
And why would they need? That’s beerus job
That's still selfish, because they are dooming millions of innocent lives due to some divine restraint. Also following your logic Beerus should be punished for killing Zamasu because it was not his job.

Zamasu is right. The entire God hierarchy is garbage and all Kais are fools, because they have the power to stop evil but do nothing but watch. Gardens are tended, not just watched.
WittyUsername wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 12:53 am
Killing Boo and Freeza would indeed have been Beerus’ duty, and he was slacking off and taking naps instead of getting up and doing something. That definitely reflects poorly on him as a person and as a god, but it hardly puts him on the same level as Zamasu. Besides, Beerus did mention in BoG that he was planning on doing something about Freeza before he found out that he was already dead, so there’s that.
Beerus learned nothing. He resurrected Freeza, knowing full well he had no intention of stopping his evil ways. And so millions of innocents continue to suffer under his yoke. We saw in the Broly movie how he continues his genocidal campaign to subjugate every planet in the universe. What is Beerus doing? Babysitting.........

Surprisingly Beerus isn't even the worst Destroyer, cause Sidra is much worse. He literally does not have the guts to destroy things, hence why his universe is so trash.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:12 pm
Lets not forget that Beerus blew up half that planet because those alien folk actually tried to poison him but it didn't work (obviously). On top of the food not being that great and they were probably shitty people too.
He was willing to do the same thing to Earth just because earthlings stole his food, so he probably would've blown it up just for the bad food.
While never fully explored (yet and maybe not at all) there seems to be some sort of method to Beerus' madness, he's not a mostly mindless killing machine like Boo.
He should change his method then, because clearly it's not working. With only 28 inhabitable planets (which might decrease due to Freeza's return), U7 is at the bottom of universes in terms of mortal power.
He's quick tempered and kinda lousy at his job but Beerus aint evil, he and Whis are more neutral than anything.
Why should he be neutral from the perspective of mortal characters? He's still doing genocide. He might have less blood on his hands than Zamasu, but he's still guilty.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:14 am

Beerus didn't resurrect Freeza, Whis did. And without Freeza, U7 would've lost. Freeza's goals and Buu's weren't the same. Buu wanted to destroy everything. Freeza is more of a parasite. He loves death and destruction but he also loves power and wealth.

The jobs of the gods aren't well defined, but that doesn't justify ANYTHING Zamasu does.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Psajdak » Mon Mar 09, 2020 3:36 am

Gods are gods, they aren't meant to justify themselves to anyone.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:13 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:46 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:12 pm
Lets not forget that Beerus blew up half that planet because those alien folk actually tried to poison him but it didn't work (obviously). On top of the food not being that great and they were probably shitty people too.
He was willing to do the same thing to Earth just because earthlings stole his food, so he probably would've blown it up just for the bad food.
While never fully explored (yet and maybe not at all) there seems to be some sort of method to Beerus' madness, he's not a mostly mindless killing machine like Boo.
He should change his method then, because clearly it's not working. With only 28 inhabitable planets (which might decrease due to Freeza's return), U7 is at the bottom of universes in terms of mortal power.
He's quick tempered and kinda lousy at his job but Beerus aint evil, he and Whis are more neutral than anything.
Why should he be neutral from the perspective of mortal characters? He's still doing genocide. He might have less blood on his hands than Zamasu, but he's still guilty.
You're not really saying anything to defend Zamasu or make Beerus out to be overly Evil or Selfish..

Think about it, had he truly be as heartless as you're trying to make him out to be, don't you think he would've destroyed the Earth anyway after fighting Goku again? I mean, he went through the trouble of finding a Super Saiyan God, fought one, only to find out that the SSG still wasnt strong enough to push him in any real way. For someone like Beerus the sheer disappointment alone should've been grounds for the end of the world but it wasnt.

A few factors probably came into play, he enjoyed Goku's tenacity and he respects that despite he and Whis randomly showing up to Earth literally looking for a fight, he was treated with good hospitality and kindness despite being a complete stranger, on top of the great food.

We know he kinda sucks at his job, he has the second worst universe in all of existence for a reason. He should be viewed as neutral because he's not manipulating anyone, nor is he killing for some inane self centered reason or no reason at all, he destroys as needed to maintain balance in the cosmos, granted that's what he's supposed to do but again he's incredibly lazy about it.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:45 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:13 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:46 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:12 pm
Lets not forget that Beerus blew up half that planet because those alien folk actually tried to poison him but it didn't work (obviously). On top of the food not being that great and they were probably shitty people too.
He was willing to do the same thing to Earth just because earthlings stole his food, so he probably would've blown it up just for the bad food.
While never fully explored (yet and maybe not at all) there seems to be some sort of method to Beerus' madness, he's not a mostly mindless killing machine like Boo.
He should change his method then, because clearly it's not working. With only 28 inhabitable planets (which might decrease due to Freeza's return), U7 is at the bottom of universes in terms of mortal power.
He's quick tempered and kinda lousy at his job but Beerus aint evil, he and Whis are more neutral than anything.
Why should he be neutral from the perspective of mortal characters? He's still doing genocide. He might have less blood on his hands than Zamasu, but he's still guilty.
You're not really saying anything to defend Zamasu or make Beerus out to be overly Evil or Selfish..

Think about it, had he truly be as heartless as you're trying to make him out to be, don't you think he would've destroyed the Earth anyway after fighting Goku again? I mean, he went through the trouble of finding a Super Saiyan God, fought one, only to find out that the SSG still wasnt strong enough to push him in any real way. For someone like Beerus the sheer disappointment alone should've been grounds for the end of the world but it wasnt.

A few factors probably came into play, he enjoyed Goku's tenacity and he respects that despite he and Whis randomly showing up to Earth literally looking for a fight, he was treated with good hospitality and kindness despite being a complete stranger, on top of the great food.

We know he kinda sucks at his job, he has the second worst universe in all of existence for a reason. He should be viewed as neutral because he's not manipulating anyone, nor is he killing for some inane self centered reason or no reason at all, he destroys as needed to maintain balance in the cosmos, granted that's what he's supposed to do but again he's incredibly lazy about it.
He literally tried to destroy the Earth after the fight with Goku and only stopped because he accidentally fell asleep and Whis teleported him out of there. He even said he would show no mercy whatsoever and ignored Goku's pleas to make an exception and spare the Earth.

He's not willing to commit genocide because he wants to build a good and peaceful world, he's willing to commit genocide because someone stole his sweet. He's totally better than Zamasu :D :D
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by goku the krump dancer » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:30 pm

He was pretending to fall asleep to save face.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Vegirot82 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:43 am

Zamasu struck me as a pathological narcissist, unwillingness to be swayed from his ideals aside, just look at how he speaks about both himself vs every other being in existence, mortals are savage barbarians unworthy of the gods favour, gods are wiped out, I'm assuming as we're never shown only told, without mercy or compunction because they too are flawed or unworthy (although admittedly it's more than likely he knows if he doesn't remove them from the board he'll have a much bigger fight in his hands) . He can do no wrong in his eyes and sees himself as the only one worthy of existence.

In the end he is a fool with foolish ideals that favours superficial beauty over the true beauty that lifeforms with free will can bring to the world, granted that has to be taken with the ugly, evil things it can bring, but that's balance in effect, something Zamasu seemingly doesn't or more likely can't understand because of his narcissistic tenancies.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:10 am

goku the krump dancer wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:30 pm
He was pretending to fall asleep to save face.
I don't remember that plot point, where did he say that?

Regardless, he was not pretending when he tried to blow up the Earth during his fight with Goku.
Vegirot82 wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:43 am
Zamasu struck me as a pathological narcissist, unwillingness to be swayed from his ideals aside, just look at how he speaks about both himself vs every other being in existence, mortals are savage barbarians unworthy of the gods favour, gods are wiped out, I'm assuming as we're never shown only told, without mercy or compunction because they too are flawed or unworthy (although admittedly it's more than likely he knows if he doesn't remove them from the board he'll have a much bigger fight in his hands) . He can do no wrong in his eyes and sees himself as the only one worthy of existence.

In the end he is a fool with foolish ideals that favours superficial beauty over the true beauty that lifeforms with free will can bring to the world, granted that has to be taken with the ugly, evil things it can bring, but that's balance in effect, something Zamasu seemingly doesn't or more likely can't understand because of his narcissistic tenancies.
He can't understand that because he's never seen it. He's seen countless examples of mortals acting foolishly, and Gowasu was stupid and brought him to yet another planet of useless barbarians, who not only didn't evolve one bit, but even tried to kill them. Maybe if Gowasu had used his brain and showed Zamasu some good mortals like the namekians, he would have understood that not all mortals are bad. Zeno had that same doubt and was even willing to erase all mortals if he did not have an example of a good-hearted mortal by the end of the ToP (actually he was willing to erase everything, not just mortals, which is much worse and shocked even the other Gods).
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Vegirot82 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:59 am

Well we don't know what he's seen before we first meet him so that's conjecture, he certainly worked his way up through the Kais ranks so it's perhaps slightly naive to think his only exposure to mortals is what we see on screen/page. That however is neither here nor there. I do agree however that if all Gowasu showed him was one barbarian race then that is a massive oversight on his part.

But that aside he still i dispayls destructivly narcissistic behavior, which Zeno, despite wiping out universes with the flick of a wrist, does not, deep down it seemed Zeno wanted to be proven wrong, and when he is accepts his error in assuming mortals have no capacity for greater good, he celebrates #17's wish and seems genuinely happy at the end of the ToP.
Zamasu flat out refuses to accept he could even come close to being wrong, so much so that he cried at the very notion that mortals would deign to even try to stop his ridiculous plan. He sees mortals band together, see something bigger than themselves and give their energy to Trunks to save them and even then, even seeing that level of trust he still refuses to even so mutch as budge and ends up in the wrong side of Zeno.
Classic narcissistic behavior, failure to admit wrongdoing even when it's bringing down your entire world around you.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:42 am

We know what he's seen. He mentions how he's witnessed countless mortal dealings, and observes that:

"[...] they thrive, quarrel, and perish all on an endless loop and so it seems to me for them to keep doing this as the height of futility."

Then he later tells Gowasu how Planet Babari was no exception and that even his master has seen this cycle repeat countless times before, to which Gowasu does not object.

Did Zeno look like he wanted to be proven wrong when he was smiling maniacally as he was carrying out universal genocide? That's not the behaviour of someone who yearns to be proven wrong. He was always very fast to erase universes, and it's telling how his reaction to a universe about to be erased was always "Okay!", almost as if he was just looking for a reason to have some fun. This is a child who spends his time playing with actual planets full of innocent people.

Also, Zamasu did admit the worth of mortals, that's why he fused when he did in the first place. Black decided to fuse after Future Zamasu recognized the strength of mortals, and how they had the power to crush their ideals and all that they had worked for. You can even pinpoint the exact moment when Black realized that there is truth in Zamasu's words and decided to "end the game". Even before that, Black was very respectful when he first met Goku, stating that he was honored that he could finally fight him and praising the might of the Saiyan race. He did the same thing against Vegeta, he acknowledged that the Saiyans truly deserved their high reputation as a warrior race, and upon being setback, he decided to adopt Vegeta's method of growing stronger through anger, even though he personally found it very primitive and beneath him. At the end Fused Zamasu refused to admit the worth of mortals because his sanity had cracked at that point. No rabid lunatic ever admits the worth of their opponent.

So yes, Zamasu commended mortals several times, he simply thought they deserved no place in his utopia because they are creatures inherently driven by war. It's easy to think that, when all you've seen are mortals repeating their mistakes on an endless loop.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Vegirot82 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:31 pm

I honestly think that it ultimately boils down to which you perceived to be worse, a gleeful child completely erasing entire universes, which whilst abhorrent in its self, doesn't cause any suffering as no one exists to be able to suffer anymore or Zamasu torturing and murdering his way through reality, full of malice, standing on the knecks of those that oppose him and generally imposing his will onto existence.
Swings and roundabouts as they say 😅

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:00 pm

I do think Zamasu is worse. Zeno is just a child who doesn't know any better, Zamasu was a fanatic who believed he was cleansing the world, when really he was just killing innocents. And that's what makes him even scarier and shows how the most righteous people can easily fall to their darker desires. At the same time, I don't like how mortals so quickly shrug off the fact that Zeno was smiling as he was committing universal genocide. Goku said he hated watching innocent lives disappear, that's why he wanted to win the ToP, yet he also fist bumps Zeno despite the things he did to the defeated universes?

I predict there'll be an arc where mortals and even some Gods will rise against Zeno. Heroes already did it. It's just unthinkable that the multiverse is fine being ruled by a child who possesses such power. Funny how the other Gods defied Zamasu because he wanted to be the ultimate God in the multiverse, and yet are perfectly fine with Zeno being exactly that.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Vegirot82 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:40 pm

It does certainly seem like a storyline that would be worth exploring, Hearts seemed to get cut off at the knees pretty much as soon as he attained the power he wanted so we never got to really see what he could do against the gods, which I suppose could indicate someone has plans for a multiversal coup at some point in the future and they're just keeping that storyline off the table for now.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Mireya » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:36 am

Some questions raised by SupremeKai25 here are interesting. I don't see that much difference between the actions of Beerus to those of Zamasu, despite the latter being treated much more like a villain than Beerus ever was. Beerus almost destroyed the Earth for not eating pudding and has been seen destroying planets for small things like losing in a playing thing or being irritated by some beings, while Zamasu at least had some basis in believing that those barbaric beings would not evolve as much with 1000 years being not enough to show such a remarkable development.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:14 pm

Mireya wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:36 am
Some questions raised by SupremeKai25 here are interesting. I don't see that much difference between the actions of Beerus to those of Zamasu, despite the latter being treated much more like a villain than Beerus ever was. Beerus almost destroyed the Earth for not eating pudding and has been seen destroying planets for small things like losing in a playing thing or being irritated by some beings, while Zamasu at least had some basis in believing that those barbaric beings would not evolve as much with 1000 years being not enough to show such a remarkable development.
Well the biggest difference is that Zamasu hates mortals in general and wants to kill them alll.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:44 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:14 pm
Mireya wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:36 am
Some questions raised by SupremeKai25 here are interesting. I don't see that much difference between the actions of Beerus to those of Zamasu, despite the latter being treated much more like a villain than Beerus ever was. Beerus almost destroyed the Earth for not eating pudding and has been seen destroying planets for small things like losing in a playing thing or being irritated by some beings, while Zamasu at least had some basis in believing that those barbaric beings would not evolve as much with 1000 years being not enough to show such a remarkable development.
Well the biggest difference is that Zamasu hates mortals in general and wants to kill them alll.
Gods don't care about mortals anyway, as has already been proved many times. Indeed, the main reason why the gods opposed Zamasu wasn't because he was committing genocide but because he was not respecting his role. Had Zamasu been a Destroyer, no one would've cared he was killing mortals.

This is the mistake people make, they dont understand that gods don't think like mortals. From the gods perspective, Zamasu is not evil just because he is committing mortal genocide.
At long last, on this most glorious day, Project Zero Mortals will culminate with the eradication of all remaining life on this planet! And then the great utopia will rise from the ashes!

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