No, Zamasu was never good.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:51 pm

The fact that he is a child who often acts on a whim is precisely why he should not wield so much power (granted, anyone having such power in the first place is already absurd). The Grand Priest also is not very different from Zeno. He might be more polite and mature, but his base mentality remains the same. During the Tournament of Power he knew Zeno was going to erase all of creation just because of one mortal being selfish (completely disregarding trillions of mortals who could have been selfless), but he let it happen nonetheless. He also showed no concern when Zeno erased the defeated universes, which means he is probably as indifferent towards mortal life as Zeno is, and as many other deities are.

Regardless, I never claimed Zeno was evil or more twisted than Zamasu. I was not even comparing Zamasu to Zeno, but more the reaction people have to Zamasu and the reaction people have to Zeno. I am just reflecting on the irony of Goku and co. not noticing how Zeno is totally cool with erasing entire universes. He might be a deity above good and evil, but when has that ever stopped Goku and co. from judging someone based on their actions? For example, after Zeno erases Infinite Zamasu and the future multiverse, nobody points out how it is scary that a single being has such power over reality?

One of my favourite moments of the ToP arc is right after U9 erasure, when Goku and the other fighters of the Tournament stop fighting in unison and just stare at Zeno, shocked by what he just did. What makes the scene even more chilling is how Zeno shows no concern for the billions of lives he just erased and maintains his smile. That was a very good and ominous moment which portrayed very well just how terrifying Zeno is. In light of this, not having bad intentions should not be enough to calm mortals.

Be that as it may, I am derailing. The thread is about Zamasu and not Zeno.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:27 pm

You are right that Zeno is very dangerous (which is something that everyone already knew) and I know that the way he's erasing universes with a smile is terrifying. But Zeno is Zeno, the King of All, and those who are below him have to obey him, that's Toriyama for you. And Angels are supposed to be neutral (in a way) and they have to listen to Zenos, so I can't really say anything about them acting indifferent towards mortals. Anyway I will stop here.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:52 pm

Well, according to the guidebooks, if a Kai born from their special tree was in fact evil, they would be considered Makaioshin and sent to hell. So at one point, Zamasu was innocent, or pure to pass that initial test. But as time went on and as he got older, he became who he is now.

Big case of nature vs nurture. Who knows how many "Evil Kai" were sent to hell, that with an actual chance, would have been good protectors of the cosmos.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:09 am

Strictly speaking, Zamasu wasn't "Evil".

While self-centered asshole with a God Complex as big as Super Shenron, everything he did was not for "personal gain" but for his vision of "greater good"\"good of the world".

He just had a mentality more akin to a Hakaishin's than a Kaiohshin's

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:18 am

Before you analyze Zamasu, you first have to ask yourself if Kaio himself is wholeheartedly "good". While Kaio had aided in saving the Earth & Namekians, his reason for doing so revolved around doing Goku a favor. For the Saiyans & Freeza, Kaio felt obliged to help Goku simply because his latest student was going up against significant threats so soon after training. After those threats were neutralized though, Kaio kinda stopped caring about Earth and wasn't aware of the Androids or Cell until Goku visited him a few years later. In the future timeline, Kaio ceased all contact with Earth and the Z Senshi after Goku's death which further suggests that Goku was Kaio's only emotional-investment & interest in Earth. Additionally, when Kaio at first believed that Freeza had successfully destroyed Namek and killed Goku, he was willing to accept that Goku & the Namekians were gone and that nothing could be done about it...as though he was just giving up on the matter. When Kaio later died after Goku transported a self-destructing Cell to his world, Kaio was irritated about being sacrificed for Earth and stated that the Earth wasn't important in comparison to his position.
There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Kaio holds a general indifference to various worlds & inhabitants which lines up with how the other Gods of DB's pantheon operate. If Kaio is like that then Zamasu no doubt held a similar position prior to becoming a total genocidal maniac and therefore was probably more neutral than inherently good or evil.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:28 am

Zamasu was probably more involved in universal affairs during his tenure as North Kai. When Gowasu met him, he eagerly vowed to do his best to uphold multiversal peace. This means he probably was always motivated in some way by the desire for peace, which would lead him to be more proactive (plus if he was already known as a fighting prodigy and genius, then that means he must've already fought a few battles to protect the universe as North Kai).

But yes, Kais in general (not just North Kai) are very indifferent and somewhat selfish. They could potentially stop evil with their great powers, but they choose not to do so because their laws bind them to inaction. Zamasu was the exception here, most Kais don't have his strong sense of justice.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:12 pm

Kais are generally in charge of WHOLE GALAXIES.
(in charge of WHAT is not clear...)

They aren't supposed to bother much about the fate of a single planet.

Kaiohshins are in charge of whole UNIVERSES. This changes prospective.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:18 am

I don't really think there's much else left to say, I just wanted to add that according to Toriyama Zamasu was indeed good at the beginning:
Toriyama: At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story (laughs).
(This was from the interview with Toyotaro and Toriyama back in 2017)

So yes Zamasu at his core was a good person, and he had noble intentions, it's just that his methods were very flawed, and that's where the inner conflict that Toriyama was talking about comes from.

The question should have been "Was it comunicated well to the viewers that Zamasu was originally good?". For me, it's "No" in the manga, because right from the beginning Zamasu is a genocidal maniac, and "Sort of" in the anime. In the anime they try to make Zamasu look sympathetic, and even succeed at times, but what I would've done was better convey the idea that Zamasu truly tried to understand mortals, and Planet Babari was simply the last straw. I mean, they did have that line where Zamasu mentions he has already seen many other mortal species acting foolishly, but it's just one line and it can easily be missed or forgotten.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 am

In what way could Zamasu in the anime be seen as even remotely sympathetic? He has zero redeeming qualities?

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:04 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 am
In what way could Zamasu in the anime be seen as even remotely sympathetic? He has zero redeeming qualities?
Not true at all. Gowasu mentions how he is pure of heart and has a strong sense of justice, something that few Kai possess. Also his goal was to achieve multiversal peace, which is a noble one. It is therefore not a surprise that at the end of the arc Gowasu himself acknowledged how Zamasu's fall was his sin too, since he failed to set Zamasu on the right path to peace. Zamasu is a textbook example of the old saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:20 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:04 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 am
In what way could Zamasu in the anime be seen as even remotely sympathetic? He has zero redeeming qualities?
Not true at all. Gowasu mentions how he is pure of heart and has a strong sense of justice, something that few Kai possess. Also his goal was to achieve multiversal peace, which is a noble one. It is therefore not a surprise that at the end of the arc Gowasu himself acknowledged how Zamasu's fall was his sin too, since he failed to set Zamasu on the right path to peace. Zamasu is a textbook example of the old saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Zamasu has no problems killing his fellow gods to achieve his goals, and he even gloats about it to Gowasu. He shows zero remorse for any of his actions. There’s no point in the series where he’s ever shown questioning whether or not he’s in the right. Hell, the only person he’s ever shown to care about is literally just an alternate version of himself. This idea that he cares about achieving peace is ridiculous. From what we’re shown, he’s nothing more than a self-righteous narcissistic hypocrite with a God complex.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:24 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:20 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:04 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:57 am
In what way could Zamasu in the anime be seen as even remotely sympathetic? He has zero redeeming qualities?
Not true at all. Gowasu mentions how he is pure of heart and has a strong sense of justice, something that few Kai possess. Also his goal was to achieve multiversal peace, which is a noble one. It is therefore not a surprise that at the end of the arc Gowasu himself acknowledged how Zamasu's fall was his sin too, since he failed to set Zamasu on the right path to peace. Zamasu is a textbook example of the old saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Zamasu has no problems killing his fellow gods to achieve his goals, and he even gloats about it to Gowasu. He shows zero remorse for any of his actions. There’s no point in the series where he’s ever shown questioning whether or not he’s in the right. Hell, the only person he’s ever shown to care about is literally just an alternate version of himself. This idea that he cares about achieving peace is ridiculous. From what we’re shown, he’s nothing more than a self-righteous narcissistic hypocrite with a God complex.
He shows no remorse for his actions because he thinks he is doing the right thing. That's why he's even willing to cry for his ideals. He genuinely believes that the multiverse would be a better place without mortals running rampart, devastating it with war and chaos. Also he killed his fellow Gods because he believed they were useless. He despised how the Gods did nothing while mortals ruined the universe, and how the Gods ultimately failed in their duty, because they created mortals so powerful that they surpassed them. Even in this case, he genuinely believed that the multiverse could thrive only if there was one Supreme God who watched over it.

Also at the beginning he did have doubts. That's why he asked Gowasu if those creatures were worthy of divine protection in the first place. He had doubts up to the point when he saw those babarians fighting. That was the last straw which proved to him that, so long as mortals existed, the cosmos would never have peace. And Babari wasn't the first planet he visited, he had already seen countless examples of mortals repeating their mistakes foolishly.

Wanting peace and being a self-righteous hypocrite are not mutually exclusive. In fact, plenty of people who are driven by noble goals end up becoming self-righteous and hypocritical, because they believe that only they know what a good world is. That doesn't change the fact that Zamasu's ultimate goal was indeed peace. He even mentions how he finds all of that destruction unfortunate, and yet necessary to achieve his utopia.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:24 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:20 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:04 pm


Not true at all. Gowasu mentions how he is pure of heart and has a strong sense of justice, something that few Kai possess. Also his goal was to achieve multiversal peace, which is a noble one. It is therefore not a surprise that at the end of the arc Gowasu himself acknowledged how Zamasu's fall was his sin too, since he failed to set Zamasu on the right path to peace. Zamasu is a textbook example of the old saying "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions".
Zamasu has no problems killing his fellow gods to achieve his goals, and he even gloats about it to Gowasu. He shows zero remorse for any of his actions. There’s no point in the series where he’s ever shown questioning whether or not he’s in the right. Hell, the only person he’s ever shown to care about is literally just an alternate version of himself. This idea that he cares about achieving peace is ridiculous. From what we’re shown, he’s nothing more than a self-righteous narcissistic hypocrite with a God complex.
He shows no remorse for his actions because he thinks he is doing the right thing. That's why he's even willing to cry for his ideals. He genuinely believes that the multiverse would be a better place without mortals running rampart, devastating it with war and chaos. Also he killed his fellow Gods because he believed they were useless. He despised how the Gods did nothing while mortals ruined the universe, and that wasn't just a problem of the Kais but of the Destroyers too. Even Zeno commented on how Beerus and Champa are worthless Destroyers who should be replaced. Even in this case, he believed that the multiverse could thrive only if there was one Supreme God who watched over it.

Also at the beginning he did have doubts. That's why he asked Gowasu if those creatures were worthy of divine protection in the first place. He had doubts up to the point when he saw those babarians fighting. That was the last straw which proved to him that, so long as mortals existed, the cosmos would never have peace. And Babari wasn't the first planet he visited, he had already seen countless examples of mortals repeating their mistakes foolishly.

Wanting peace and being a self-righteous hypocrite are not mutually exclusive. Plenty of people who are driven by noble goals end up being self-righteous and hypocrites, because they believe that only they know what a good world is. That doesn't change the fact that Zamasu's ultimate goal was indeed peace. He even mentions how he finds all of that destruction unfortunate, and yet necessary to achieve his utopia.
Him asking a question about humans/mortals really isn’t enough to suggest that he’s sympathetic. This idea that he wants “peace”, doesn’t really work if his goal is to be the only being left in existence. That doesn’t make him some well-intentioned but woefully misguided person, that just makes him a megalomaniac.

I suppose I can perhaps get the idea that Toei made a token effort to have Zamasu come across as a complex and tragic character, but I just don’t think it was conveyed well at all. I didn’t feel sorry for Zamasu at any point. To me, he’s right up there with Freeza in terms of being one of the most despicable characters in the entire franchise. Even characters like Cell and Boo at least have the excuse of having been created to be evil.

As far as him crying is concerned, it was made pretty clear that he was only crying because he was upset that he was “forced” to trade away his divine body when he swapped with Goku. That certainly doesn’t say anything about his sense of justice. That only reinforces the idea that he’s an entitled brat with an overinflated sense of grandeur. Even Vegetto found it to be pathetic.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:06 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:35 pm
Him asking a question about humans/mortals really isn’t enough to suggest that he’s sympathetic. This idea that he wants “peace”, doesn’t really work if his goal is to be the only being left in existence. That doesn’t make him some well-intentioned but woefully misguided person, that just makes him a megalomaniac.
I didn't say that's what made him sympathetic, but it does indeed prove that he had doubts in the beginning. That's why he says "this proves it, mortals must be destroyed" only after going to Babari. Before that he was indeed willing to listen to Gowasu's teachings. Perhaps he wouldn't have even changed so drastically if that dumbass Goku didn't repeatedly disrespect him. Actually, I can remove the "perhaps". Future Zamasu's backstory proves that Zamasu would have never gone through with his genocidal plan if Goku never humiliated him in combat. He would still despise mortals, but he would have never crossed that threshold by killing Gowasu and stealing Goku's body. Goku defeating him is what showed him that mortals weren't just useless creatures, but were an actual threat to the Gods and had to be removed immediately.
I suppose I can perhaps get the idea that Toei made a token effort to have Zamasu come across as a complex and tragic character, but I just don’t think it was conveyed well at all. I didn’t feel sorry for Zamasu at any point. To me, he’s right up there with Freeza in terms of being one of the most despicable characters in the entire franchise. Even characters like Cell and Boo at least have the excuse of having been created to be evil.
I did feel sorry for him at the end, when Gowasu said that they both failed him. Cause it's a tragic story at the end. So many things could've gone differently, if the people around Zamasu acted more wisely. Goku behaving like a normal person, Gowasu not showing Zamasu a shitty species, etc.
As far as him crying is concerned, it was made pretty clear that he was only crying because he was upset that he was “forced” to trade away his divine body when he swapped with Goku. That certainly doesn’t say anything about his sense of justice. That only reinforces the idea that he’s an entitled brat with an overinflated sense of grandeur. Even Vegetto found it to be pathetic.
He wasn't upset, that was his plan all along. By having Goku's flesh into his body, he wanted to never forsake the failures of the Kais and the arrogance of mortals. It was always his desire to merge with a mortal. Also he still believed he was an invincible God, so much so that later on he bragged about how the Final Kamehameha barely hindered him. He didn't cry because Vegito told him he wasn't immortal any longer.

When he cried he said "Of course, I do this for the good of the cosmos, for a creation!". That's because at his core he really was just someone who wanted to build a good and peaceful world. He just thought that peace was impossible so long as mortals existed, because they were inherently flawed creatures who never learned from their mistakes. And yes, him crying highlights that, at the end of the day, he's delusional. That's the point. He was always praised as a genius and a prodigy, so he ultimately refused to listen to anyone but himself. He thought only he knew what a good world was.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:53 pm

No one’s denying that Zamasu considers himself to be in the right, but that doesn’t make a villain sympathetic. Everything about Zamasu paints him as this throughly unpleasant and entitled bastard who wants to have his way or the highway.

I’m sorry, but I’m going to need a lot more than “this one character feels bad for him” for me to actually consider Zamasu sympathetic. As I said before, he has virtually no redeeming qualities. He’s a complete sadist who relishes in torturing (not simply killing) humans.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:21 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:53 pm
No one’s denying that Zamasu considers himself to be in the right, but that doesn’t make a villain sympathetic. Everything about Zamasu paints him as this throughly unpleasant and entitled bastard who wants to have his way or the highway.
That's my point. They did not convey very well the idea that he is supposed to be a sympathetic villain. Because he is supposed to be sympathetic, Toriyama himself said that Zamasu originally was good, and there are some points in the anime where he made me sympathize with him, but overall he does not come off as very sympathetic or tragic.
I’m sorry, but I’m going to need a lot more than “this one character feels bad for him” for me to actually consider Zamasu sympathetic.
Tell me who felt sorry for King Piccolo, Freeza, Cell, or Buu. That's what makes Zamasu sympathetic, especially in a setting like Dragon Ball where all villains are generic evil monsters.

I already listed his redeeming qualities so I am not going to repeat myself.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:35 pm

Not to distract too much from the conversation being had but we all remember that Zamasu was an actual god right? It's not a god complex when your actual job is to judge and lord over humanity. Nor is it narcissism to consider yourself a divine arbiter when you're an actual divine arbiter.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by GhostEmperorX » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:17 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:53 am
Zamasu as a character was written in a story that wasn't allowed the proper time to develop and build up to his eventual snap.
Basically, when DB tries to be deep, it fails, and when it does indeed turn out to be deep, it's only inadvertently so. Which is why a character like this wouldn't work here.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:21 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:35 pm
Not to distract too much from the conversation being had but we all remember that Zamasu was an actual god right? It's not a god complex when your actual job is to judge and lord over humanity. Nor is it narcissism to consider yourself a divine arbiter when you're an actual divine arbiter.
Very true. That's also why I don't understand people who say "well, he makes too much of a big deal out of time travel". Like, he's a God, he's enforcing divine laws. Trunks defied divine law by time travelling, and in doing so shattered the time-space continuum (even Gowasu called him a fool), so of course Zamasu, who has a strong sense of justice, would want to punish him and the earthlings severely. That's why he wanted to slowly punish earthlings for their sins and didn't just kill them all in 10 seconds like Buu did.

Even the argument "Zamasu is wrong because he's a Kai, it's not his job to judge mortals" is weak, because the majority of Destroyers are incompetent idiots who don't know how to do their job. That's something even Zeno acknowledged, he said he wanted to replace Beerus and Champa because, quite clearly, they can't do their job. Sidra is even worse, he's a Destroyer who lacks the guts to actually destroy, and that's why his universe is such a hive of scum and crime.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:10 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:21 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:35 pm
Not to distract too much from the conversation being had but we all remember that Zamasu was an actual god right? It's not a god complex when your actual job is to judge and lord over humanity. Nor is it narcissism to consider yourself a divine arbiter when you're an actual divine arbiter.
Very true. That's also why I don't understand people who say "well, he makes too much of a big deal out of time travel". Like, he's a God, he's enforcing divine laws. Trunks defied divine law by time travelling, and in doing so shattered the time-space continuum (even Gowasu called him a fool), so of course Zamasu, who has a strong sense of justice, would want to punish him and the earthlings severely. That's why he wanted to slowly punish earthlings for their sins and didn't just kill them all in 10 seconds like Buu did.
You honestly just made a good argument for why Zamasu is such a despicable psychopath, and not a remotely sympathetic character. If the intention was to portray Zamasu as this sympathetic and complex villain, then both Toei and Toyotoro failed, in my opinion.

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