No, Zamasu was never good.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:09 pm

If he was always a sociopath then he wouldn't have been allowed in Kai society in the first place, since Kais can tell when a newborn is good or evil, and if he's evil he's exiled to become a Makaioshin. It's pretty obvious that his doubts about mortals were kickstarted by some tragedy or accident he had with them, especially since he had seen many examples like those of Planet Babari, and in that planet he and Gowasu were assaulted by a beast. The question he posed to Gowasu at the beginning of the arc about the worth of mortals is not a question you come up with randomly or when you wake up, there was clearly a lot behind it that was not told.
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:29 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:19 pm
ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:10 pm
Please stop telling me the plot to me. I got it.
Actually I'm not telling you the plot, I'm telling you some things about Zamasu.
But nothing beyond the text.

LoganForkHands hit the nail on the head.
Blatantly false, since I have speculated about a lot of things that are only alluded of in the text.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:18 pm

You don't go deep enough and it's hardly that deep to say a man who tries to remake reality and murder people is out for blood for its own sake, nor is it particularly deep to say he's insecure. His stated goals aren't his true goals. He probably believes it, but it's because he's not looking deep enough at himself. He wants death and destruction.
If he was always a sociopath then he wouldn't have been allowed in Kai society in the first place, since Kais can tell when a newborn is good or evil, and if he's evil he's exiled to become a Makaioshin. It's pretty obvious that his doubts about mortals were kickstarted by some tragedy or accident he had with them, especially since he had seen many examples like those of Planet Babari, and in that planet he and Gowasu were assaulted by a beast.
First, where was it stated that Kaioshin can tell if a newborn is good or not? And no it's not obvious his doubts were kick started by some tragedy. It's simple observation. One need only look at the real human race and you see some of the most vile acts imaginable. The history of humanity is a history of war and destruction. It's very possible to see enough over the years and for appraisals to change over time.
I don't buy it, personally. Zamasu may be cruel but he's hardly on par with Piccolo Daimao who wants to destroy the world because it'd kill a few decades or Vegeta who chows down on species he's just genocided. Zamasu's anger actually comes from somewhere. Even if you think he's wrong to believe what he does of mortals, he's not just acting out to be acting out.
Zamasu is WAY worse than Daimao. Daimao was the evil the child of Katatsu had in his heart given corporeal form. He has no choice in his nature. Zamasu does. Period, end of story. For all this talk about gods, mortals, and enlightenment, the fact is that much like any other fictional gods, DB's gods are just as prone to vanity, fallibility, cruelty, and pettiness as any mortal.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:38 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:18 pm
You don't go deep enough and it's hardly that deep to say a man who tries to remake reality and murder people is out for blood for its own sake, nor is it particularly deep to say he's insecure. His stated goals aren't his true goals. He probably believes it, but it's because he's not looking deep enough at himself. He wants death and destruction.
Already acknowledged. I mentioned how I do not believe that's just a lie he's telling himself to feel better about his actions, because he's wanted peace before he even had dealings with mortals. Also because it is a fact he was trying to wash away everything in the Earth to usher in a new world, like he himself declared, meaning that he wouldn't just stop at destroying everything.
First, where was it stated that Kaioshin can tell if a newborn is good or not?
It's stated in the Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide that the Kais who are born evil are exiled into the Demon Realm, thus yes they can tell when a Kai is born evil.
And no it's not obvious his doubts were kick started by some tragedy. It's simple observation. One need only look at the real human race and you see some of the most vile acts imaginable. The history of humanity is a history of war and destruction. It's very possible to see enough over the years and for appraisals to change over time.
Point is it's obvious he did not randomly come up with those doubts.
Zamasu is WAY worse than Daimao. Daimao was the evil the child of Katatsu had in his heart given corporeal form. He has no choice in his nature. Zamasu does. Period, end of story. For all this talk about gods, mortals, and enlightenment, the fact is that much like any other fictional gods, DB's gods are just as prone to vanity, fallibility, cruelty, and pettiness as any mortal.
Yes, DB gods are prone to mortal cruelty, that's why Zeno erases trillions of innocents on a whim and destroys literal planets for fun and that's why Beerus commits genocide because he doesn't like a particular food.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:42 pm

I agree with SupremeKai25, Zamasu was not evil when he was simply a Kai. If he only sought for death and destruction he would have destroyed all the universes when he had the chance, wouldn't he ? but that was not his main goal at all, which shows us that he didn't only want death and destruction, but rather he wanted mortals not to make the same mistakes over and over, and he feared mortals because they were dangerous so he wanted to get rid of them. In his own perspective he thought he was doing the right thing.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:35 pm

I mean, by default Zamasu being born into the position that was as a Kai initially at least hints there was some nobility and pureness within him. The main problem with Zamasu was that he viewed the roles of mortal and gods with such a black and white lens, that he had no patience or tolerance for any kind of middle ground when it came to morality of mortals of the duties of the gods. Then you factor his interaction with Goku which only further entrenched his beliefs and the awful experience on Planet Babari, and it's no surprise he went him off the deep end.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:19 pm

If it's in a guide, it doesn't count. Only stuff IN the story counts.

I don't follow Scientist Fu's train of thought at all.
Point is it's obvious he did not randomly come up with those doubts.
Obviously, but was anyone claiming he was?
Yes, DB gods are prone to mortal cruelty, that's why Zeno erases trillions of innocents on a whim and destroys literal planets for fun and that's why Beerus commits genocide because he doesn't like a particular food.
The tournament and its consequences weren't really a whim. He was playing a dangerous game, but he still had a point to make.
In his own perspective he thought he was doing the right thing.
I never bought that whole "everyone thinks they are doing the right thing" line you get from writers and actors. It's not really true. It's usually a rationalization. Only a sociopath could think that sort of destruction and murder was the right thing.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:30 pm

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:19 pm
If it's in a guide, it doesn't count. Only stuff IN the story counts.
How convenient that it does not count, even though it is an official guide based on the manga that even contains an interview with Toryiama.

Then how about a direct statement from Toryiama confirming that Zamasu was indeed good at his core?
The tournament and its consequences weren't really a whim. He was playing a dangerous game, but he still had a point to make.
I was referring to the six universes he erased because he was bored one day. Also, what was his point to make? That all mortals are selfish and worthless and should be erased if the winner at the end makes a selfish wish (in spite of the many selfless mortals out there)? Great point.

Oh wait, that reminds me of Zamasu. He also wanted to destroy all mortals without making any distinction, even though some of them are decent people.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:46 pm

Not really convenient, just how it works. If it's not part of the text or subtext, it doesn't matter. Christ, in Broly, they outright dismiss the Bardock TV specials telling of events. You think any subsequent writer should be beholden to some bit of lore from a damn guide?
. Also, what was his point to make? That all mortals are selfish and worthless and should be erased if the winner at the end makes a selfish wish (in spite of the many selfless mortals out there)? Great point.
In the end, Zen-Oh was using the tournament to decide whether the multiverse deserved to exist at all. If the wish from the winner was an egocentric wish, he would've wiped out everything. He was hoping that the winner would be someone with not only strength of body, but strength of character, thus proving mortals deserve to survive, so he brought everyone back. I thought it was in fact a great point. Even though there are good people in the world, there is a real question of whether we should survive. It doesn't speak to well of a species when its strongest members endlessly abuse their power.

That's flat out text, and yet you go on and on about Zamasu every time he's brought up like no one gets him but you. What is with you and this character?

At least Zen Oh blinks people out of existence painlessly. Zamasu has bloodlust. He loves murder and causing people pain. He's also a malignant narcissist who wants to remake reality so everyone bows to his whims. What he wants is either death or obedience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:34 pm

So if I correctly understood your point, you are telling us that Zamasu was always a bloodthirsty killer since the beginning ?

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:56 pm

Scientist Fu wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:34 pm
So if I correctly understood your point, you are telling us that Zamasu was always a bloodthirsty killer since the beginning ?
I don't know if it was from the beginning, but clearly there is a flaw in his psychology that ate away at him.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:16 am

ABED wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:46 pm
Not really convenient, just how it works. If it's not part of the text or subtext, it doesn't matter. Christ, in Broly, they outright dismiss the Bardock TV specials telling of events. You think any subsequent writer should be beholden to some bit of lore from a damn guide?
. Also, what was his point to make? That all mortals are selfish and worthless and should be erased if the winner at the end makes a selfish wish (in spite of the many selfless mortals out there)? Great point.
In the end, Zen-Oh was using the tournament to decide whether the multiverse deserved to exist at all. If the wish from the winner was an egocentric wish, he would've wiped out everything. He was hoping that the winner would be someone with not only strength of body, but strength of character, thus proving mortals deserve to survive, so he brought everyone back. I thought it was in fact a great point. Even though there are good people in the world, there is a real question of whether we should survive. It doesn't speak to well of a species when its strongest members endlessly abuse their power.

That's flat out text, and yet you go on and on about Zamasu every time he's brought up like no one gets him but you. What is with you and this character?

At least Zen Oh blinks people out of existence painlessly. Zamasu has bloodlust. He loves murder and causing people pain. He's also a malignant narcissist who wants to remake reality so everyone bows to his whims. What he wants is either death or obedience.
Sorry but that's not how it works. If it comes from an official guide, it's still valid.

Also Zamasu killed people slowly because he wanted mortals to pay for their multiple transgressions against the Gods. They defied divine law so they paid the price, it's simple. Even Gowasu agreed that Trunks was a fool for time-travelling, because that broke the very time-space continuum. For someone like Zamasu, who was gifted with a strong sense of justice, that couldn't be tolerated. If anything it's mindblowing how only Zamasu was scorned by the arrogance of mortals.

Also what Zeno did was still despicable, so much so that even Beerus was shocked. He erased trillions of innocents, with a sadistic smile on his face nonetheless. Actually, what he did is even worse than what Zamasu did. Because at least Zamasu only killed people, so at least they could continue their existence in the Other World, but Zeno erased them from existence, even their soul was gone, so what he did was even more terrifying than Zamasu.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:59 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 5:16 am
Sorry but that's not how it works. If it comes from an official guide, it's still valid.
No, that's EXACTLY how it works. If it's not in the series, it doesn't matter.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:34 am

Even if you don't take into account these guide books or the words of the creator himself, in the anime episode 53, Gowasu already stated that a tea made by a pure being is flawless and very delicious. We can easily assume that Zamasu's nature was good at one point. At least, that's how I see it.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:25 am

I don't think of it as his nature as much as his actions. No one starts off as evil. Evil is a function of choice, not genetics.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:36 am

I don't share your point of view. I think that there are creatures that are fully pure in nature (like Kaio Shins), fully evil (like Demons/Devils), and half good/half bad like mortals.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:38 am

If there isn't choice, how can they be good or evil?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:52 am

I haven't said that there isn't choice for everyone. I said that some creatures' core is pure or evil, and the others are born neutral and depending on the events they have experienced they can do good and / or bad things.

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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by ABED » Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:28 am

Regardless, his choice to murder and butcher people didn't come out of nowhere. He took sadistic glee in it. He might have started off good, and he might have good reasons for his cynicism towards mortals, but no utopia that he's concocted in his mind justifies his means. I don't even think his ends are honorable.

By the way, I completely disagree that Zamasu's way was better. At least Zen-Oh blinked people out of existence in a blink of an eye. It's painless. Zamasu killed people often up close and he took his time. The people he left behind lived in constant fear for their safety. The fact that they lived in the afterlife is of little solace.

Regarding his supposed arc, I don't need to see it as I don't think the point was ever about the tragedy of his fall from grace. It's all about contrasting point of views. The narrative only needs to dramatize his beliefs and his justifications.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:09 am

I think the central misunderstanding is sociopathy = evil when that's not always necessarily the case. If we take the benefit of the doubt and accept this guide as true, Zamasu was a blank slate upon birth like most beings and most Kais. As it would medically be seen in real life, Zamasu's sociopathy was just a defect at first -- barely noticeable and pretty much harmless. But on the same token, has Zamasu actually taken any "good" actions?

I think Zamasu's a great character and I enjoy the fact that he was created with enough complexity that you can have all these different interpretations of him, but I personally disagree that he was ever "good". He's utterly self-obsessed and full of envy. Even his design with his grey soulless eyes reflect that.
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Re: No, Zamasu was never good.

Post by Scientist Fu » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:39 am

ABED wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:28 am
Regardless, his choice to murder and butcher people didn't come out of nowhere. He took sadistic glee in it. He might have started off good, and he might have good reasons for his cynicism towards mortals, but no utopia that he's concocted in his mind justifies his means. I don't even think his ends are honorable.

Regarding his supposed arc, I don't need to see it as I don't think the point was ever about the tragedy of his fall from grace. It's all about contrasting point of views. The narrative only needs to dramatize his beliefs and his justifications.
Of course it didn't come out of nowhere, it came after he watched mortals since he was a Kai, when he saw planet Babari, when Goku asked to fight him, after he learned that Trunks, a mere mortal has traveled back in time on several occasions and changed the course of the history which was considered a taboo for the gods. In the anime, Zamasu and Black tell Trunks that one of the reasons why they decided that mortals deserve to die was because of him. But it is clear that the way Zamasu proceeded was utterly wrong and cruel. He was too severe in his actions, he wanted to kill all mortals to save the world from mortals' sins and he didn't even hesitate to kill his own master and the other gods to accomplish his plan.

I personally don't try to dramatize his beliefs and his justifications, I'm just sharing what I understood.

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