Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by TobyS » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:48 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:36 am
C-17 and C-18 most likely didn't WANT to turn back to normal humans.
See how he had no issues removing the bombs they quite obviously didn't want.

Likewise, he couldn't teleport Goku only because Goku REFUSED, not just because he was stronger.

Hell, if being stronger than the dragon was enough to make you immune to it no matter what, why bother with the whole Namek saga?
Freeza was VASTLY stronger than anybody else on Namek, Polunga should have been unable to change his fundamental nature and make him immortal... the Nameks should just have said so to Freeza.
Hell, Same thing in the DBS:Broly movie!

But the point was never discussed.


Everything points to "Dragons cannot effect those stronger than themselves unless they agree to it"
Exactly.

Besides the magic dragon casting dispell on the magic earrings is still more plausible then him reverting super science altered cyborgs.

The cyborgs are toast that can't be turned back to bread. The kaioshins were magic beings magically glued together.

Consent is clearly a variable. Shenron says he can't kill vegeta and nappa because they are stronger than Kami the implication being if they werent he could. Yet dragons can't teleport Goku without permission. But can teleport vegeta to earth, who's indifferent to the idea I guess.

He can also regen gokus chi to full against kid buu even though gokus stronger than him.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:09 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:36 am
C-17 and C-18 most likely didn't WANT to turn back to normal humans.
See how he had no issues removing the bombs they quite obviously didn't want.

Likewise, he couldn't teleport Goku only because Goku REFUSED, not just because he was stronger.

Hell, if being stronger than the dragon was enough to make you immune to it no matter what, why bother with the whole Namek saga?
Freeza was VASTLY stronger than anybody else on Namek, Polunga should have been unable to change his fundamental nature and make him immortal... the Nameks should just have said so to Freeza.
Hell, Same thing in the DBS:Broly movie!

But the point was never discussed.


Everything points to "Dragons cannot effect those stronger than themselves unless they agree to it"
Nope, if it was so he would have said so but he said he can't break or revert the bodies of stronger beings than him. Him removing bombs despite #18 never asking is a proof of my point.

Teleporting Goku has nothing to do with changing Goku's body to old self or modifying him or defusing him.

Making someone immortal is still not same as reverting to old self or changing their bodies into old self. It's just giving eternal life but that won't increase or decrease power, the power factor is important. Fusions can only be broken by using excessive power and I don't think Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin could be broken like nothing.


Even Piccolo Daimao wanted youth but his power was same as Kami and Shenlong so it made sense.


When Dragon is giving Freeza eternal life or restoring stamina, he's not messing their body or power level. With Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin he needs even bigger power to break it since that was the only way shown in DBS to break a fusion. How can Dragon affect such a being and nonsensically break the bodies stronger than him?
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:16 pm

TobyS wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:48 pm
ankokudaishogun wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:36 am
C-17 and C-18 most likely didn't WANT to turn back to normal humans.
See how he had no issues removing the bombs they quite obviously didn't want.

Likewise, he couldn't teleport Goku only because Goku REFUSED, not just because he was stronger.

Hell, if being stronger than the dragon was enough to make you immune to it no matter what, why bother with the whole Namek saga?
Freeza was VASTLY stronger than anybody else on Namek, Polunga should have been unable to change his fundamental nature and make him immortal... the Nameks should just have said so to Freeza.
Hell, Same thing in the DBS:Broly movie!

But the point was never discussed.


Everything points to "Dragons cannot effect those stronger than themselves unless they agree to it"
Exactly.

Besides the magic dragon casting dispell on the magic earrings is still more plausible then him reverting super science altered cyborgs.

The cyborgs are toast that can't be turned back to bread. The kaioshins were magic beings magically glued together.

Consent is clearly a variable. Shenron says he can't kill vegeta and nappa because they are stronger than Kami the implication being if they werent he could. Yet dragons can't teleport Goku without permission. But can teleport vegeta to earth, who's indifferent to the idea I guess.

He can also regen gokus chi to full against kid buu even though gokus stronger than him.
If he can remove bombs ,which was something which required Bulma, then yes he shouldn't have any problems with it but he couldn't coz of power gap.

The Kaioshin magic was told to be eternal to the point, Goku, who was suggesting to use DBs for everything in Boo arc, said that he will have to go to school with Gohan as Gokhan and outright told Vegeta that they will remain fused forever and never revert when he would've mentioned DBs otherwise if it was possible.


Teleporting or Restoring Ki is not same as modifying the bodies and changing their fundamental nature of beings or breaking a fusion which is eternal.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:10 pm

Goku is _NOT_ a trustworthy source of information over magic-related stuff of any kind.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:33 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:10 pm
Goku is _NOT_ a trustworthy source of information over magic-related stuff of any kind.
True. And neither are the gods as Zeno's mind changes fairly frequently.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by theherodjl » Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:16 pm

The fact of the matter is that Shenron can defuse merged beings and it is not beyond his power to do so no matter how much one might believe it qualifies as being that. At no point have any of the Dragons been stated or implied to be unable to affect the act of fusion itself, regardless of how powerful the fused-being actually is. Its simply one of the many loopholes that Shenron can perform that works around the greater power that a stronger being might have over Shenron...and that's a totally fine answer.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:58 am

I think theherodjl has hit the nail in the head. The Cyborgs and what makes them a Cyborg can be considered as one thing... it's within their being and can't be detached. In Kibitoshin's case, what merged them was the Potaras, the earrings, and it counts as something beyond the simple being formed by them. The Potaras are the focal point in that case, which apparently don't hold enough juice to bypass the power of the Dragon Balls.

It isn't so clear though and the reasoning might not seem gospel, but it makes sense if you let it be.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am

theherodjl wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:16 pm
The fact of the matter is that Shenron can defuse merged beings and it is not beyond his power to do so no matter how much one might believe it qualifies as being that. At no point have any of the Dragons been stated or implied to be unable to affect the act of fusion itself, regardless of how powerful the fused-being actually is. Its simply one of the many loopholes that Shenron can perform that works around the greater power that a stronger being might have over Shenron...and that's a totally fine answer.
No, he can't revert stronger beings to normal. If it was that simple, Goku who literally used Dragon Ball as answer to everything in Boo arc would have said so but no, old Kaioshin knew about Dragon Balls yet he said it had no weakness and it can't be reverted and Goku who himself said he will have to go to Gohan's school as Merged being and even to Vegeta he said they won't be able to be 2 people ever. The only way to break Vegetto or any fusion is using too much power and I don't think Shenron had more power to break their fusion. He was easily able to remove 18's bomb but denied to revert her to old self due to power, it means he couldn't have done that. Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin far surpass him and he can't revert bodies of stronger beings to old self.
Mireya wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:58 am
I think theherodjl has hit the nail in the head. The Cyborgs and what makes them a Cyborg can be considered as one thing... it's within their being and can't be detached. In Kibitoshin's case, what merged them was the Potaras, the earrings, and it counts as something beyond the simple being formed by them. The Potaras are the focal point in that case, which apparently don't hold enough juice to bypass the power of the Dragon Balls.

It isn't so clear though and the reasoning might not seem gospel, but it makes sense if you let it be.
That makes no sense especially when he was easily able to remove her bomb which would require a scientist of Gero's level considering how much trouble Brief had in understanding android 16's anatomy and remove his bomb, it proves that if the power doesn't surpass his he can revert their body to old self. Wait, what? Potara are more powerful than anything Shenron can do. It's not like once Merged they can remove Potara and defuse themselves. It creates a new being forever and according to Old Kaioshin it's eternal and one can never return back. If it was an option, Goku who kept bringing Dragon Ball as solution to all crisis in Boo arc would do so but no, he even told Vegeta that they can't split when it was a golden opportunity to state how DBs will defuse them later especially to someone who hated him. It's impossible for Dragon to break a being like Kibitokai into 2 since it's beyond his power to break them back considering Potara creates a permanent being upon merging.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 am

Ripper 30 wrote:That makes no sense especially when he was easily able to remove her bomb which would require a scientist of Gero's level considering how much trouble Brief had in understanding android 16's anatomy and remove his bomb, it proves that if the power doesn't surpass his he can revert their body to old self. Wait, what? Potara are more powerful than anything Shenron can do. It's not like once Merged they can remove Potara and defuse themselves. It creates a new being forever and according to Old Kaioshin it's eternal and one can never return back. If it was an option, Goku who kept bringing Dragon Ball as solution to all crisis in Boo arc would do so but no, he even told Vegeta that they can't split when it was a golden opportunity to state how DBs will defuse them later especially to someone who hated him. It's impossible for Dragon to break a being like Kibitokai into 2 since it's beyond his power to break them back considering Potara creates a permanent being upon merging.
Removing their bomb doesn't change the essence of the androids. The bomb is just something extra added to them, while they being robots is something already intrinsic to them.

The Potaras hold power in a sense that it powers up the fusees beyond belief, but that's still different from a simple being like the Saiyans, for instance. It's a powerful artifact, but in a different way from the beings Shenlong has prove ineffective against.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by theherodjl » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:52 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am
No, he can't revert stronger beings to normal. If it was that simple, Goku who literally used Dragon Ball as answer to everything in Boo arc would have said so but no, old Kaioshin knew about Dragon Balls yet he said it had no weakness and it can't be reverted and Goku who himself said he will have to go to Gohan's school as Merged being and even to Vegeta he said they won't be able to be 2 people ever. The only way to break Vegetto or any fusion is using too much power and I don't think Shenron had more power to break their fusion. He was easily able to remove 18's bomb but denied to revert her to old self due to power, it means he couldn't have done that. Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin far surpass him and he can't revert bodies of stronger beings to old self.
Well, evidently he can because he did. That's an indisputable fact no matter what you "think" on the matter.
Rou Kaioshin is not that trustworthy on the issue when he, supposedly one of the most knowledgeable beings in the universe on the effects of the Potara, didn't know that non-Kaioshin fusees were not subject to the permanent-fusion aspect of the Potara. For such a smart being to be ignorant of the full effects of the very tools that made him the way that he is calls his very word into question. Simply put, Rou Kaioshin is not perfect and is capable of making critical blunders despite holding the most venerable position in the universe.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm

Mireya wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 am
Ripper 30 wrote:That makes no sense especially when he was easily able to remove her bomb which would require a scientist of Gero's level considering how much trouble Brief had in understanding android 16's anatomy and remove his bomb, it proves that if the power doesn't surpass his he can revert their body to old self. Wait, what? Potara are more powerful than anything Shenron can do. It's not like once Merged they can remove Potara and defuse themselves. It creates a new being forever and according to Old Kaioshin it's eternal and one can never return back. If it was an option, Goku who kept bringing Dragon Ball as solution to all crisis in Boo arc would do so but no, he even told Vegeta that they can't split when it was a golden opportunity to state how DBs will defuse them later especially to someone who hated him. It's impossible for Dragon to break a being like Kibitokai into 2 since it's beyond his power to break them back considering Potara creates a permanent being upon merging.
Removing their bomb doesn't change the essence of the androids. The bomb is just something extra added to them, while they being robots is something already intrinsic to them.

The Potaras hold power in a sense that it powers up the fusees beyond belief, but that's still different from a simple being like the Saiyans, for instance. It's a powerful artifact, but in a different way from the beings Shenlong has prove ineffective against.
Again, Potaras are supposed to make a new being forever. If he can't change Androids back to the way they were then he can not change them back to 2 beings. Goku had every knowledge of Dragon Balls, he used the "let's use Dragon Ball to fix it" thing again and again in the arc yet even he knew Shenlong or any Dragon in general can't seperate them that's why he told Vegeta that he can't be seperated ever again despite having DBs, if it was a solution he would definitely not say that and instead say something like how they will use Dragon Balls later. Not even Old Kaioshin ever said They can be seperated by any means despite knowing about Dragon Balls. You act like removing Potaras after merging means undoing fusion when that's not true, do you know why Fusions break? When they produce large power like SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ Blue Vegetto or SSJ4 Gogeta. Unless Porunga can produce such power, the fusion can't be broken.


theherodjl wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:52 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am
No, he can't revert stronger beings to normal. If it was that simple, Goku who literally used Dragon Ball as answer to everything in Boo arc would have said so but no, old Kaioshin knew about Dragon Balls yet he said it had no weakness and it can't be reverted and Goku who himself said he will have to go to Gohan's school as Merged being and even to Vegeta he said they won't be able to be 2 people ever. The only way to break Vegetto or any fusion is using too much power and I don't think Shenron had more power to break their fusion. He was easily able to remove 18's bomb but denied to revert her to old self due to power, it means he couldn't have done that. Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin far surpass him and he can't revert bodies of stronger beings to old self.
Well, evidently he can because he did. That's an indisputable fact no matter what you "think" on the matter.
Rou Kaioshin is not that trustworthy on the issue when he, supposedly one of the most knowledgeable beings in the universe on the effects of the Potara, didn't know that non-Kaioshin fusees were not subject to the permanent-fusion aspect of the Potara. For such a smart being to be ignorant of the full effects of the very tools that made him the way that he is calls his very word into question. Simply put, Rou Kaioshin is not perfect and is capable of making critical blunders despite holding the most venerable position in the universe.

Again that's the dumb explanation we got. Old Kaioshin has been using Potara for generations, saw many fuse and even told Goku to fuse as base to not shorten their lifespan by fusing as ssj, it's obvious he is aware of what he's telling. He himself was fused with a Non-Kaioshin yet he was permanent and no, he said the effect is permanent with Kaioshins not one Kaioshin and one mortal.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:47 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm
Mireya wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 am
Ripper 30 wrote:That makes no sense especially when he was easily able to remove her bomb which would require a scientist of Gero's level considering how much trouble Brief had in understanding android 16's anatomy and remove his bomb, it proves that if the power doesn't surpass his he can revert their body to old self. Wait, what? Potara are more powerful than anything Shenron can do. It's not like once Merged they can remove Potara and defuse themselves. It creates a new being forever and according to Old Kaioshin it's eternal and one can never return back. If it was an option, Goku who kept bringing Dragon Ball as solution to all crisis in Boo arc would do so but no, he even told Vegeta that they can't split when it was a golden opportunity to state how DBs will defuse them later especially to someone who hated him. It's impossible for Dragon to break a being like Kibitokai into 2 since it's beyond his power to break them back considering Potara creates a permanent being upon merging.
Removing their bomb doesn't change the essence of the androids. The bomb is just something extra added to them, while they being robots is something already intrinsic to them.

The Potaras hold power in a sense that it powers up the fusees beyond belief, but that's still different from a simple being like the Saiyans, for instance. It's a powerful artifact, but in a different way from the beings Shenlong has prove ineffective against.
Again, Potaras are supposed to make a new being forever. If he can't change Androids back to the way they were then he can not change them back to 2 beings. Goku had every knowledge of Dragon Balls, he used the "let's use Dragon Ball to fix it" thing again and again in the arc yet even he knew Shenlong or any Dragon in general can't seperate them that's why he told Vegeta that he can't be seperated ever again despite having DBs, if it was a solution he would definitely not say that and instead say something like how they will use Dragon Balls later. Not even Old Kaioshin ever said They can be seperated by any means despite knowing about Dragon Balls. You act like removing Potaras after merging means undoing fusion when that's not true, do you know why Fusions break? When they produce large power like SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ Blue Vegetto or SSJ4 Gogeta. Unless Porunga can produce such power, the fusion can't be broken.


theherodjl wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:52 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:11 am
No, he can't revert stronger beings to normal. If it was that simple, Goku who literally used Dragon Ball as answer to everything in Boo arc would have said so but no, old Kaioshin knew about Dragon Balls yet he said it had no weakness and it can't be reverted and Goku who himself said he will have to go to Gohan's school as Merged being and even to Vegeta he said they won't be able to be 2 people ever. The only way to break Vegetto or any fusion is using too much power and I don't think Shenron had more power to break their fusion. He was easily able to remove 18's bomb but denied to revert her to old self due to power, it means he couldn't have done that. Vegetto or Kibito-Kaioshin far surpass him and he can't revert bodies of stronger beings to old self.
Well, evidently he can because he did. That's an indisputable fact no matter what you "think" on the matter.
Rou Kaioshin is not that trustworthy on the issue when he, supposedly one of the most knowledgeable beings in the universe on the effects of the Potara, didn't know that non-Kaioshin fusees were not subject to the permanent-fusion aspect of the Potara. For such a smart being to be ignorant of the full effects of the very tools that made him the way that he is calls his very word into question. Simply put, Rou Kaioshin is not perfect and is capable of making critical blunders despite holding the most venerable position in the universe.

Again that's the dumb explanation we got. Old Kaioshin has been using Potara for generations, saw many fuse and even told Goku to fuse as base to not shorten their lifespan by fusing as ssj, it's obvious he is aware of what he's telling. He himself was fused with a Non-Kaioshin yet he was permanent and no, he said the effect is permanent with Kaioshins not one Kaioshin and one mortal.
In one case, the DBs are clashing against the Potaras, the artifact, whereas in the other one they are clashing against the androids. Nuff said.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 pm

Mireya wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:47 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm
Mireya wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:40 am

Removing their bomb doesn't change the essence of the androids. The bomb is just something extra added to them, while they being robots is something already intrinsic to them.

The Potaras hold power in a sense that it powers up the fusees beyond belief, but that's still different from a simple being like the Saiyans, for instance. It's a powerful artifact, but in a different way from the beings Shenlong has prove ineffective against.
Again, Potaras are supposed to make a new being forever. If he can't change Androids back to the way they were then he can not change them back to 2 beings. Goku had every knowledge of Dragon Balls, he used the "let's use Dragon Ball to fix it" thing again and again in the arc yet even he knew Shenlong or any Dragon in general can't seperate them that's why he told Vegeta that he can't be seperated ever again despite having DBs, if it was a solution he would definitely not say that and instead say something like how they will use Dragon Balls later. Not even Old Kaioshin ever said They can be seperated by any means despite knowing about Dragon Balls. You act like removing Potaras after merging means undoing fusion when that's not true, do you know why Fusions break? When they produce large power like SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ Blue Vegetto or SSJ4 Gogeta. Unless Porunga can produce such power, the fusion can't be broken.


theherodjl wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:52 pm


Well, evidently he can because he did. That's an indisputable fact no matter what you "think" on the matter.
Rou Kaioshin is not that trustworthy on the issue when he, supposedly one of the most knowledgeable beings in the universe on the effects of the Potara, didn't know that non-Kaioshin fusees were not subject to the permanent-fusion aspect of the Potara. For such a smart being to be ignorant of the full effects of the very tools that made him the way that he is calls his very word into question. Simply put, Rou Kaioshin is not perfect and is capable of making critical blunders despite holding the most venerable position in the universe.

Again that's the dumb explanation we got. Old Kaioshin has been using Potara for generations, saw many fuse and even told Goku to fuse as base to not shorten their lifespan by fusing as ssj, it's obvious he is aware of what he's telling. He himself was fused with a Non-Kaioshin yet he was permanent and no, he said the effect is permanent with Kaioshins not one Kaioshin and one mortal.
In one case, the DBs are clashing against the Potaras, the artifact, whereas in the other one they are clashing against the androids. Nuff said.
This is wrong, in one case they aren't clashing with Potara but fused being created by Potara which is known for fusing beings permanently while other is him clashing with an android stronger than himself. According to your logic Shenlong is just fusing with mechanical bolts and bomb in android.
The artifact is known to PERMANENTLY fuse people forever creating a single being forever even after death (as seen by Old Kaioshin still being fused while dead). Androids are humans modified, Shenlong had no issue doing what required Brief and Bulma to team up and do which was remove bomb from Android 16 so it proves he can pretty much do it if he wants but the only reason he couldn't modify android 18's body was because he can't revert people stronger than him to their original self before modification of body. With Fusion the Potara was known to have no weakness like defusing.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"
Old Kaioshin definitely knows about Dragon Balls but even then he said it's eternal and they will never return to normal again. Even Goku said that they can't split back and he obviously knows and relies on Dragon Balls for majority of the arc as well.


The only way to break fusion is overuse the power which Shenlong or Porunga can't generate.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:16 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 pm
Mireya wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:47 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 pm


Again, Potaras are supposed to make a new being forever. If he can't change Androids back to the way they were then he can not change them back to 2 beings. Goku had every knowledge of Dragon Balls, he used the "let's use Dragon Ball to fix it" thing again and again in the arc yet even he knew Shenlong or any Dragon in general can't seperate them that's why he told Vegeta that he can't be seperated ever again despite having DBs, if it was a solution he would definitely not say that and instead say something like how they will use Dragon Balls later. Not even Old Kaioshin ever said They can be seperated by any means despite knowing about Dragon Balls. You act like removing Potaras after merging means undoing fusion when that's not true, do you know why Fusions break? When they produce large power like SSJ3 Gotenks or SSJ Blue Vegetto or SSJ4 Gogeta. Unless Porunga can produce such power, the fusion can't be broken.






Again that's the dumb explanation we got. Old Kaioshin has been using Potara for generations, saw many fuse and even told Goku to fuse as base to not shorten their lifespan by fusing as ssj, it's obvious he is aware of what he's telling. He himself was fused with a Non-Kaioshin yet he was permanent and no, he said the effect is permanent with Kaioshins not one Kaioshin and one mortal.
In one case, the DBs are clashing against the Potaras, the artifact, whereas in the other one they are clashing against the androids. Nuff said.
This is wrong, in one case they aren't clashing with Potara but fused being created by Potara which is known for fusing beings permanently while other is him clashing with an android stronger than himself. According to your logic Shenlong is just fusing with mechanical bolts and bomb in android.
The artifact is known to PERMANENTLY fuse people forever creating a single being forever even after death (as seen by Old Kaioshin still being fused while dead). Androids are humans modified, Shenlong had no issue doing what required Brief and Bulma to team up and do which was remove bomb from Android 16 so it proves he can pretty much do it if he wants but the only reason he couldn't modify android 18's body was because he can't revert people stronger than him to their original self before modification of body. With Fusion the Potara was known to have no weakness like defusing.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"
Old Kaioshin definitely knows about Dragon Balls but even then he said it's eternal and they will never return to normal again. Even Goku said that they can't split back and he obviously knows and relies on Dragon Balls for majority of the arc as well.


The only way to break fusion is overuse the power which Shenlong or Porunga can't generate.
It doesn't matter if the earrings create a powerful being. The power of uniting the bodies and keeping them united comes from them, so it's against them that Shenlong is fighting against when it spearates the individual, not against the individual formed by them. The androids aren't fully androids (cyborgs would be more accurate then), but the mechanic parts are considered one with them... their mechanic parts are still themselves, so the ability to turn this new being into humans again is beyond Shenlong. When they wish for the bomb to be removed it was already within Shenlong's capabilities, because that, much like the earrings, wasn't one with the androids, so the whole sequence isn't as random and inconsistent as you think. The bombs implanted in their bodies are comparable to the Potaras to Kibitoshin, not their mechanical constitution.

Old Kaioshin was also against the usage of the DBs to beings besides the Namekians so it makes sense he wouldn't consider it in his speeches.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:13 am

Mireya wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:16 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 pm
Mireya wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:47 pm

In one case, the DBs are clashing against the Potaras, the artifact, whereas in the other one they are clashing against the androids. Nuff said.
This is wrong, in one case they aren't clashing with Potara but fused being created by Potara which is known for fusing beings permanently while other is him clashing with an android stronger than himself. According to your logic Shenlong is just fusing with mechanical bolts and bomb in android.
The artifact is known to PERMANENTLY fuse people forever creating a single being forever even after death (as seen by Old Kaioshin still being fused while dead). Androids are humans modified, Shenlong had no issue doing what required Brief and Bulma to team up and do which was remove bomb from Android 16 so it proves he can pretty much do it if he wants but the only reason he couldn't modify android 18's body was because he can't revert people stronger than him to their original self before modification of body. With Fusion the Potara was known to have no weakness like defusing.

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P11.6
Context: Goku asks how long Potara-based fusion lasts
Elder Kaioshin: "The Potara don't have such a weakness. It's eternal! You'll never return to normal again!"
Old Kaioshin definitely knows about Dragon Balls but even then he said it's eternal and they will never return to normal again. Even Goku said that they can't split back and he obviously knows and relies on Dragon Balls for majority of the arc as well.


The only way to break fusion is overuse the power which Shenlong or Porunga can't generate.
It doesn't matter if the earrings create a powerful being. The power of uniting the bodies and keeping them united comes from them, so it's against them that Shenlong is fighting against when it spearates the individual, not against the individual formed by them. The androids aren't fully androids (cyborgs would be more accurate then), but the mechanic parts are considered one with them... their mechanic parts are still themselves, so the ability to turn this new being into humans again is beyond Shenlong. When they wish for the bomb to be removed it was already within Shenlong's capabilities, because that, much like the earrings, wasn't one with the androids, so the whole sequence isn't as random and inconsistent as you think. The bombs implanted in their bodies are comparable to the Potaras to Kibitoshin, not their mechanical constitution.

Old Kaioshin was also against the usage of the DBs to beings besides the Namekians so it makes sense he wouldn't consider it in his speeches.
And it's stated that once defused nothing can undo fusion by Potara. The Potara create permanent beings for life. No your logic had loopholes, the mechanical parts are functioning same as potara here. Yea Potara fusion is still them too forever with your logic. So mechanical parts were one with them but not bomb? Even though both were part of their body. Potaras aren't removal implantations, they are supposed to merge beings eternally.


Him not considering them doesn't have anything to do with even Goku never considering Dragon Balls to unfuse when throughout whole arc he was all about using Dragon Balls to solve issues be it Fat Boo destroying or Kid Boo yet somehow he doesn't take Dragon Ball into consideration? Yea no.


He explicitly told Vegeta, they can't go back to being 2 persons ever again despite knowing about Dragon Balls and he wouldn't tell that to a guy who was least interested in fusing.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:03 pm

Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:13 am
Mireya wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:16 am
Ripper 30 wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:01 pm


This is wrong, in one case they aren't clashing with Potara but fused being created by Potara which is known for fusing beings permanently while other is him clashing with an android stronger than himself. According to your logic Shenlong is just fusing with mechanical bolts and bomb in android.
The artifact is known to PERMANENTLY fuse people forever creating a single being forever even after death (as seen by Old Kaioshin still being fused while dead). Androids are humans modified, Shenlong had no issue doing what required Brief and Bulma to team up and do which was remove bomb from Android 16 so it proves he can pretty much do it if he wants but the only reason he couldn't modify android 18's body was because he can't revert people stronger than him to their original self before modification of body. With Fusion the Potara was known to have no weakness like defusing.




Old Kaioshin definitely knows about Dragon Balls but even then he said it's eternal and they will never return to normal again. Even Goku said that they can't split back and he obviously knows and relies on Dragon Balls for majority of the arc as well.


The only way to break fusion is overuse the power which Shenlong or Porunga can't generate.
It doesn't matter if the earrings create a powerful being. The power of uniting the bodies and keeping them united comes from them, so it's against them that Shenlong is fighting against when it spearates the individual, not against the individual formed by them. The androids aren't fully androids (cyborgs would be more accurate then), but the mechanic parts are considered one with them... their mechanic parts are still themselves, so the ability to turn this new being into humans again is beyond Shenlong. When they wish for the bomb to be removed it was already within Shenlong's capabilities, because that, much like the earrings, wasn't one with the androids, so the whole sequence isn't as random and inconsistent as you think. The bombs implanted in their bodies are comparable to the Potaras to Kibitoshin, not their mechanical constitution.

Old Kaioshin was also against the usage of the DBs to beings besides the Namekians so it makes sense he wouldn't consider it in his speeches.
And it's stated that once defused nothing can undo fusion by Potara. The Potara create permanent beings for life. No your logic had loopholes, the mechanical parts are functioning same as potara here. Yea Potara fusion is still them too forever with your logic. So mechanical parts were one with them but not bomb? Even though both were part of their body. Potaras aren't removal implantations, they are supposed to merge beings eternally.


Him not considering them doesn't have anything to do with even Goku never considering Dragon Balls to unfuse when throughout whole arc he was all about using Dragon Balls to solve issues be it Fat Boo destroying or Kid Boo yet somehow he doesn't take Dragon Ball into consideration? Yea no.


He explicitly told Vegeta, they can't go back to being 2 persons ever again despite knowing about Dragon Balls and he wouldn't tell that to a guy who was least interested in fusing.
It's stated by who? Old Kaioshin? The same being who was against the usage of the DBs as they were only supposed to be used by the Namekians? No, your logic is the one broken. Pack it up.

The bomb wasn't a single one to the androids. It was an artifact hanging there on its own and wasn't blend with their own, so per say. So it isn't the same. Shenlong also pointed out that removing the bombs isn't changing their nature, so it's just different from just changing the structure of their body that it's part of their being. Clearly.

Except Goku has no knowledge on the whole thing. He only took Old Kaioshin's word for granted, as this latter said it couldn't be undone. He not taking time to ponder on the DB's effect on the earrings has nothing to do with their actual effect on the earrings. Besides, this is DB we are talking about... a show that the characters rarely do think about logical ways out certain situations.

Doesn't matter. Goku just didn't think the DBs would be able to do it or he just didn't even consider them... it's not reminiscent of their actual capability on this.

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am

I just want to say I also don't think it should of happened even if it theoretically could. Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse? Not to mention I like Kibbito kai design wise and character wise. It is like a symbolic way to show Shin transition into more of a real kai. Idk

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by dbgtFO » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:57 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
I just want to say I also don't think it should of happened even if it theoretically could. Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse? Not to mention I like Kibbito kai design wise and character wise. It is like a symbolic way to show Shin transition into more of a real kai. Idk
Toriyama wanted to sweep the whole Buu thing under the rug, so that's why they were defused just in time for Beerus' first meeting with them after his 39 years nap at the Twin Universe Tournament, so we never have to touch on why Beerus doesn't know about Buu at all.
I'm sure he'd never admit it, but come on now, his intensions are transparent as water!

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:16 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:57 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
I just want to say I also don't think it should of happened even if it theoretically could. Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse? Not to mention I like Kibbito kai design wise and character wise. It is like a symbolic way to show Shin transition into more of a real kai. Idk
Toriyama wanted to sweep the whole Buu thing under the rug, so that's why they were defused just in time for Beerus' first meeting with them after his 39 years nap at the Twin Universe Tournament, so we never have to touch on why Beerus doesn't know about Buu at all.
I'm sure he'd never admit it, but come on now, his intensions are transparent as water!
Sure but I stand by the fact I think it just shouldn't have happened. I think Beerus doesn't care enough to remember Shin and Kibbito being two different people. Besides Buu's been around for years, Beerus should have known him regardless

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:00 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse?
For the joke.

They defused only for the joke of them using one of the wishes to get defused, a "useless" wish.

That's it.

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