Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

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Ripper 30
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Ripper 30 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:05 am

Mireya wrote:
Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:03 pm
Ripper 30 wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:13 am
Mireya wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:16 am

It doesn't matter if the earrings create a powerful being. The power of uniting the bodies and keeping them united comes from them, so it's against them that Shenlong is fighting against when it spearates the individual, not against the individual formed by them. The androids aren't fully androids (cyborgs would be more accurate then), but the mechanic parts are considered one with them... their mechanic parts are still themselves, so the ability to turn this new being into humans again is beyond Shenlong. When they wish for the bomb to be removed it was already within Shenlong's capabilities, because that, much like the earrings, wasn't one with the androids, so the whole sequence isn't as random and inconsistent as you think. The bombs implanted in their bodies are comparable to the Potaras to Kibitoshin, not their mechanical constitution.

Old Kaioshin was also against the usage of the DBs to beings besides the Namekians so it makes sense he wouldn't consider it in his speeches.
And it's stated that once defused nothing can undo fusion by Potara. The Potara create permanent beings for life. No your logic had loopholes, the mechanical parts are functioning same as potara here. Yea Potara fusion is still them too forever with your logic. So mechanical parts were one with them but not bomb? Even though both were part of their body. Potaras aren't removal implantations, they are supposed to merge beings eternally.


Him not considering them doesn't have anything to do with even Goku never considering Dragon Balls to unfuse when throughout whole arc he was all about using Dragon Balls to solve issues be it Fat Boo destroying or Kid Boo yet somehow he doesn't take Dragon Ball into consideration? Yea no.


He explicitly told Vegeta, they can't go back to being 2 persons ever again despite knowing about Dragon Balls and he wouldn't tell that to a guy who was least interested in fusing.
It's stated by who? Old Kaioshin? The same being who was against the usage of the DBs as they were only supposed to be used by the Namekians? No, your logic is the one broken. Pack it up.

The bomb wasn't a single one to the androids. It was an artifact hanging there on its own and wasn't blend with their own, so per say. So it isn't the same. Shenlong also pointed out that removing the bombs isn't changing their nature, so it's just different from just changing the structure of their body that it's part of their being. Clearly.

Except Goku has no knowledge on the whole thing. He only took Old Kaioshin's word for granted, as this latter said it couldn't be undone. He not taking time to ponder on the DB's effect on the earrings has nothing to do with their actual effect on the earrings. Besides, this is DB we are talking about... a show that the characters rarely do think about logical ways out certain situations.

Doesn't matter. Goku just didn't think the DBs would be able to do it or he just didn't even consider them... it's not reminiscent of their actual capability on this.
He used the words like "eternal" and "permanent".

It was literally part of the internal systems of cyborgs Post-modification.


Goku throughout the whole arc was relying on Dragon Balls and there's no reason to not bring up Dragon Ball as solution to permanency of Potara but instead he was worried about going to highschool with Gohan. He literally was standing there thinking and all he can come up was consequence of him being permenently merged. Yea I love your out of Universe explanation, "My headcanon is not working but hey its DB hahaha"

Ok so with Fat Boo destruction, with Kid Boo he's aware of Dragon Ball but suddenly he's not here and even told his rival who was against merging that he will never split back? Yea no.

I love how you suddenly went inside Goku's mind there and can almost rewrite DB.
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
I just want to say I also don't think it should of happened even if it theoretically could. Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse? Not to mention I like Kibbito kai design wise and character wise. It is like a symbolic way to show Shin transition into more of a real kai. Idk

They literally defused in the arc where Super Dragon Balls were introduced, they should have used them since it's way more powerful than anything and has no flaws. Them defusing via Porunga is a plothole since Dragons can't grant wishes surpassing them, he can't revert 18 back to her old self coz of power. He reverted Piccolo Daimao coz he was on-par or weaker than Kami, Kibitokai was way stronger than Muri and he shouldn't have been able to do it.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mad Swami » Tue Mar 17, 2020 1:01 am

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:00 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse?
For the joke.

They defused only for the joke of them using one of the wishes to get defused, a "useless" wish.

That's it.
Yeah but you get my point

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by TobyS » Tue Mar 17, 2020 4:44 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:00 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 am
Nothing is being done with either Shin or Kibbito really so why defuse?
For the joke.

They defused only for the joke of them using one of the wishes to get defused, a "useless" wish.

That's it.
I think it was kind of more simple.
We were about to get introduced to U6 Kaioshins and their attendants, and then the rest.

Also he'd be strong enough to be relavent vs non Black Zamasu, although they probably didn't think that far ahead.
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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:57 am

Ripper 30 wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:59 am
I think Porunga defusing Kibito-Kaioshin back to how they were originally is a plothole. As we know, Dragons can't grant wish surpassing their creators.

In Cell arc, after the Cell games, when Kuririn asked Shen long to revert Android 18 and 17 back to humans, he said he can't due to their power surpassing them.

So how the hell was Kibito-Kaioshin able to defuse himself when Dragon can't grant wishes surpassing himself, if he wasn't able to revert the bodies of androids back to human due to power gap, he shouldn't be able to do the same with Kibito-Kaioshin since he vastly surpassed Muri and he shouldn't be able to modify their body back to original self.

What do you guys think?
But he was able to remove their bombs. What Shenron can't do is to force someone stronger to do something he doesn't want to do, but if that stronger person wants it, then the dragon can (in the same way he can grant eternal life to beings stronger than him).

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Mireya » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:00 am

Ripper 30 wrote:He used the words like "eternal" and "permanent".
They would be eternal and permanent in a context that the DBs can't be used. Besides, even if he thought the DBs could be used, it doesn't mean he thought they'd work.
It was literally part of the internal systems of cyborgs Post-modification.
It wasn't a single thing mingled with their being. For all we know it could be lying inside their bodies not attached to any complex structure. Bulma and his father could easily take #16's bomb away as well and he still didn't lose his essence, he was still #16.
Goku throughout the whole arc was relying on Dragon Balls and there's no reason to not bring up Dragon Ball as solution to permanency of Potara but instead he was worried about going to highschool with Gohan. He literally was standing there thinking and all he can come up was consequence of him being permenently merged. Yea I love your out of Universe explanation, "My headcanon is not working but hey its DB hahaha
I'm not appealing to an out of universe view, I'm noticing that not always the characters think about the most logical explanation for things. They didn't immediately think about the Namekian DBs when Goku died in his battle against Cell. The usability of the Namekian DBs had to be reminded to all them by Dende when Kid Boo destroyed Earth and killed the others.

Even if the DBs crossed Goku's thoughts, he could have simply discarded them since Elder Kaioshin stated there's no coming back, words he might have taken to the heart, so there's no holes in it as well.
Ok so with Fat Boo destruction, with Kid Boo he's aware of Dragon Ball but suddenly he's not here and even told his rival who was against merging that he will never split back? Yea no.
Old Kai said they were eternal so Goku didn't think the DBs could do the work. With Old Kai we don't even know if he took the DBs into consideration and even if he did, it's still arguable whether he knew the DBs could clash with the Potaras. So yeah, I don't see anything significant from what you say that pokes holes in what's there in the manga.
I love how you suddenly went inside Goku's mind there and can almost rewrite DB.
I'm not rewriting anything, just stating things as they are. You sound the one who's rewriting things -- "the bombs are as much part to the Androids as their mechanical enhancements", "the Potaras should be as powerful as the result of the fusion".

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Re: Porunga shouldn't have been able to defuse Kibito-Kaioshin into 2

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:14 pm

Mireya wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:00 am
Ripper 30 wrote:He used the words like "eternal" and "permanent".
They would be eternal and permanent in a context that the DBs can't be used. Besides, even if he thought the DBs could be used, it doesn't mean he thought they'd work.
I'd add that Elder Kaioshin purposely omitted the DBs because he is against using them, and Goku has no idea about his take on them. As of why Goku never thought of them, he clearly was assuming DBs wouldn't work because it was never mentioned to him by the oldest and wisest guy he ever knew, besides he really isn't the kind of person to dwell too much on change "my tail is gone? ok", "I can't be brought back to life? ok", "my time on Earth is up? ok". "I have to go to school with Gohan? ok".

Also time wasn't on his side, he never got a minute to sit and really think about it. He gets the earrings, goes to Earth, finds Buutenks about to kill people, tries to give Gohan the earring, Gohan gets absorbed, needs to find someone else to fuse with but can't, has to flee from Buuhan towards Vegeta, and needs to convince Vegeta. Every assumption of his comes from Elder Kaioshin omitting the DBs.

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