Where did the powercreep really start?

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It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:00 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:55 pm
It makes no sense why Toriyama didn't have Piccolo and the Humans learn Kaioken. That would have been an easy way for them to catch up. Just imagine Piccolo after fusing with Kami stacked with KKx20 on top, both the Android and Buu arcs would have ended sooner.
He probably forgot the move existed.
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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:08 am

Herms first pointed it out in his series retrospective with Geekdom: visual escalation disappears in the Saiyan arc. Once Vegeta says he can destroy a planet (and actually does it, in the anime) all bets are off. As Herms put it, you can watch Goku's fight with Vegeta in isolation and easily come away with the impression that these guys are much stronger than the two fighters in (say) Goku vs Tao Paipai or Goku vs Tenshinhan: they're casually flying around and throwing ki blasts like nothing when both techniques used to be a huge deal, single punches of the type that they can throw thousands of per second are strong enough to impart kinetic energy sufficient to obliterate mountains, Goku arrives to the fight having flown a million kilometers in under a day, Vegeta shakes the planet and causes storms and earthquakes just by powering up, there are repeated references to their charged-up energy attacks being planet-busting, we're reminded near the end that Piccolo's own charged up attack destroyed the moon, etc. On the other hand, you would never know just from watching (say) Goku vs Cell that those two were supposed to be much stronger than Goku and Vegeta were in the Saiyan arc.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by emperior » Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:33 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:08 am
Herms first pointed it out in his series retrospective with Geekdom: visual escalation disappears in the Saiyan arc. Once Vegeta says he can destroy a planet (and actually does it, in the anime) all bets are off. As Herms put it, you can watch Goku's fight with Vegeta in isolation and easily come away with the impression that these guys are much stronger than the two fighters in (say) Goku vs Tao Paipai or Goku vs Tenshinhan: they're casually flying around and throwing ki blasts like nothing when both techniques used to be a huge deal, single punches of the type that they can throw thousands of per second are strong enough to impart kinetic energy sufficient to obliterate mountains, Goku arrives to the fight having flown a million kilometers in under a day, Vegeta shakes the planet and causes storms and earthquakes just by powering up, there are repeated references to their charged-up energy attacks being planet-busting, we're reminded near the end that Piccolo's own charged up attack destroyed the moon, etc. On the other hand, you would never know just from watching (say) Goku vs Cell that those two were supposed to be much stronger than Goku and Vegeta were in the Saiyan arc.
Nice observation. But I guess that it would have been very difficult to have more visual escalation from there on, especially in the manga.

I would say that after the Saiyan arc, the only kind of visual escalation DB has ever had was maybe Goku vs Beerus in Battle of Gods, as they were basically fighting all over the Earth; then we got a Beerus vs Champa flashback in the manga which literally showed the two fighting from planet to planet; maybe add Gogeta vs Broly in the mix as their fight literally broke reality and had them fighting in some kind of alternate dimension.

There are of course other ways to convey the escalation of power, such as comments like Cell’s who said his wave had power to destroy the Solar system. Then Super had stuff like Goku vs Beerus producing shockwaves all over the universe, and Ultra Instinct too felt very different because of the way they animated it.
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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:42 pm

Frieza casually cutting Namek in half was a good visual escalation.

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:08 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:42 pm
Frieza casually cutting Namek in half was a good visual escalation.
Don't forget Super Boo and Gotenks literally ripping reality apart by tearing holes through dimensions.

And Kid Boo actually destroying Earth.

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:35 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:00 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:55 pm
It makes no sense why Toriyama didn't have Piccolo and the Humans learn Kaioken. That would have been an easy way for them to catch up. Just imagine Piccolo after fusing with Kami stacked with KKx20 on top, both the Android and Buu arcs would have ended sooner.
He probably forgot the move existed.
How could he forget when Goku was still using the Kaioken even after Piccolo got revived? It was the same arc.

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:23 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:35 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:00 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:55 pm
It makes no sense why Toriyama didn't have Piccolo and the Humans learn Kaioken. That would have been an easy way for them to catch up. Just imagine Piccolo after fusing with Kami stacked with KKx20 on top, both the Android and Buu arcs would have ended sooner.
He probably forgot the move existed.
How could he forget when Goku was still using the Kaioken even after Piccolo got revived? It was the same arc.
Sure he still remembers it during the closing chapters of the Freeza Arc but it's nowhere to be seen during the Cell Arc.

I'm not saying my explanation is right, by the way. I think it's also possible that Toriyama made the conscious decision that only Goku was good enough to use the Kaioken but I don't think that's likely.
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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:23 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:35 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:00 pm


He probably forgot the move existed.
How could he forget when Goku was still using the Kaioken even after Piccolo got revived? It was the same arc.
Sure he still remembers it during the closing chapters of the Freeza Arc but it's nowhere to be seen during the Cell Arc.

I'm not saying my explanation is right, by the way. I think it's also possible that Toriyama made the conscious decision that only Goku was good enough to use the Kaioken but I don't think that's likely.
I mean yeah, but my point was if they did learn the Kaioken, Piccolo would definitely have used it against Freeza.

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:07 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 pm
I mean yeah, but my point was if they did learn the Kaioken, Piccolo would definitely have used it against Freeza.
Oh definitely. Woulda made the fight more interesting too. Freeza busts out a new transformation and Piccolo counters by bringing out the Kaioken. Now with his back against the wall Freeza has a real reason for using his final transformation. Plus Piccolo gets to look cool!

And sorry for misunderstanding you. I'm kinda dumb.
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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:26 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:07 pm
Dbzfan94 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:02 pm
I mean yeah, but my point was if they did learn the Kaioken, Piccolo would definitely have used it against Freeza.
Oh definitely. Woulda made the fight more interesting too. Freeza busts out a new transformation and Piccolo counters by bringing out the Kaioken. Now with his back against the wall Freeza has a real reason for using his final transformation. Plus Piccolo gets to look cool!

And sorry for misunderstanding you. I'm kinda dumb.
Nah you’re fine! I should’ve clarified more I can easily see how my last comment could be misconstrued.

And yeah that would’ve been awesome!

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Re: Where did the powercreep really start?

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Well not factoring in the "scouter numbers", here are my thoughts:
- Krillin is weaker than General Blue.
- Blue can effectively take out Goku, Krillin and Roshi at the same time.
- Tao Pai Pai casually and effortlessly kills blue WITH HIS TONGUE
- He pretty much kills Goku in 3 hits. Goku only survives due to sheer luck.

3 days later, Goku is much stronger than Tao, to the degree that he is giving him free shots and only barely complaining about it hurting, and ends up wrecking him.
This is the first instance of Goku getting utterly stomped in the series and then reversing the situation (although not to the same extent) in 3 days.


However, this is not even close to where the powercreep sets in. It is the pre god water to 23rd TB.

Goku gets almost killed by the Demon, who was old and frail, using less than half his power. Then, the demon regains his youth, where he was "incomparably" powerful. GOku drinks the god water, and beats the demon. Then he goes to god. God literally finger-flicks him. 3 years later, he's a bit stronger than piccolo Jr, who, while low on power and injured, could push away god and a bunch of other strong fighters like nothing.
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