Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

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Yasai9001
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Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by Yasai9001 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:19 pm

For the longest time ever, people have been under the belief that Son Goku had a power-level of ten at the beginning of Dragon Ball because of a power-level guide of sorts. And at the time, it was believable because of the fact that a power-level of ten is twice as strong as five, which is two times the strength of a full grown overweight farmer.

Being twice as strong as someone is overkill in Dragon Ball but the fact of the matter is that Goku is more than likely way stronger at the beginning of Dragon Ball.

https://imgur.com/a/4tDJOZL/img

In the image up above, Son Gohan comments on Goku's strength. He tells Kakarot that he is unbelievably strong for his size and says it would have been dangerous for him if he was not a martial arts expert. This in itself is implying that a three year old Goku would have been capable of fatally wounding or possibly even killing a full grown adult human.

To give you some perspective, a full grown adult overweight farmer has a power-level of 5. This is a working person who is still obviously out of shape and smoking cigarettes. And given his power-level, he obviously doesn't have any fighting experience. For a three year old child to easily handle a grown man like that implies that Goku's power-level at three is greater than 5.

Not only that, but if you look closely at the image, Gohan has tears on his clothing and marks on his face that indicate possible punches, kicks or scratches. He had trouble handling Goku until he either eventually overpowered him due to his fighting skill or used Goku's weakness (his tail) against him.

And there are other things we must take into account:

1. This was before Son Goku bumped his head.

After such a big blow at his age, it is likely he received a little boost in power due to a successful recovery.

2. Gohan trained Goku for a while.

It takes years for people to be able to learn how to fight properly; throwing punches with perfect form and knowing how to control their might. Since fighting comes naturally to Saiyans, it would have been relatively easy for Goku to learn how to fight from Gohan, perhaps months all up to a couple years. This gives Goku time to grow even stronger.

And we also know that Son Gohan warns Goku of not looking at the full moon. This means that Gohan already had experience with the Oozaru form and survived it. So already knowing for a fact that a three year old Goku's power-level is far surpassed five, this means that Gohan's power-level undoubtedly ranges somewhere in the 100s, especially since he was capable of managing Goku when he managed to transform the first time. And since Gohan is in the hundreds, Kid Goku right at Gohan's death at least has a power-level of ten, meaning that Goku is stronger than a PL of 10 at the beginning of Dragon Ball since he continues to hone his skills and is very active surviving in the mountains.

This helps me realize that if Goku truly had been sent to eradicate all life on Earth, he would have actually been able to do so easily simply due to the fact that he would continue to get stronger as a growing boy, especially if he were to use the full moon every single chance he got.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by blacksymbiote » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:22 am

Power levels are bull....

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by theherodjl » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:07 am

A power level of 10 is pretty impressive considering that Kid Goku appears to stand less than three feet tall yet has double the strength of an average, male adult. Its also quite possible that Gohan did not train Goku in an manner optimal for raising battle power but purely for recreational enjoyment. Goku cannot have gotten really strong just punching wood & rocks for fun every now & then, he'd of needed to actually push himself rather than keep up a comparatively-useless exercise.
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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by blacksymbiote » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:45 pm

Being twice as strong as the average guy doesn't allow you to shrug off bullets. Ask any weightlifter.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by theherodjl » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:45 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:45 pm
Being twice as strong as the average guy doesn't allow you to shrug off bullets. Ask any weightlifter.
Saiyan physiology: Kid Goku might have a power level of 10 but he still tough anyways due to his species' durability. Just look at Nappa, he had a power level of 4000 yet held out against Goku's blows even with Goku sitting twice as high at 8000. It was only when Goku doubled his power to 16000 with the Kaio-ken that Nappa suffered actual injury.
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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:40 am

The amount of ki in Goku's body is twice the average adult man. His strength, speed and durability are higher. Ki didn't become the main deciding force in battles till closer to Z. Before that skill, strength and speed could be improved with out major ki power ups.

Goku looks to have hit his limit against King Piccolo and that's when now he has to start increasing his Ki to get beyond his wall.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by blacksymbiote » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:45 am
blacksymbiote wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:45 pm
Being twice as strong as the average guy doesn't allow you to shrug off bullets. Ask any weightlifter.
Saiyan physiology: Kid Goku might have a power level of 10 but he still tough anyways due to his species' durability. Just look at Nappa, he had a power level of 4000 yet held out against Goku's blows even with Goku sitting twice as high at 8000. It was only when Goku doubled his power to 16000 with the Kaio-ken that Nappa suffered actual injury.
So how's Krillin doing it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ymzngSaH4

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by Mireya » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:53 pm

I may be fine with this figure considering we need a low starting point to more easily fit the other part 1 characters in the 400s tops power levels at the Raditz's arrival.

The evidence presented by you is good and I'd also think that only analysing Goku's feats isolated, a 2x gap over a normal earthling could be seen as tight, but given what I said above and that battle power is primarily a measure of "Ki", with the Goku from the beginning not having this aspect of him honed yet, I think a 10 may work just fine.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by theherodjl » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:21 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
So how's Krillin doing it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ymzngSaH4
Its a reoccurring gag in which Evil-Lunch unloads on the Kame School, the consequences of any injury in DB performed purely for a laugh typically ends abruptly with no repercussions immediately after.
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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by Mike XL » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:45 pm

I think he was closer to 40-50 at the beginning of DB. You have to have him around dinosaur strength at least.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by RandomGuy96 » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:10 pm

1. Power levels aren't linear. Piccolo Daimao in the hundreds still had to expend notable effort to blow up a city, while Piccolo Jr. at 408 was able to blow up the moon, which requires literally quadrillions of times more energy.

2. A bear with a power level of 5 will still be much stronger than a human with a power level of 5. Saiyan BABIES right out of the womb are expected to thrive in x10 Earth's gravity, so Saiyans are just naturally more durable than humans even at the same power level.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
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Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by theherodjl » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:37 pm

Mike XL wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:45 pm
I think he was closer to 40-50 at the beginning of DB. You have to have him around dinosaur strength at least.
Yet Goku & Krillin were fleeing from a dinosaur during Roshi's training.
The only reason Goku defeated a dinosaur in the first chapter was due to the Nyoibo, a weapon capable of inflicting some damage on Piccolo Daimao. No one was above dinosaurs until after Roshi's training.
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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by Aim » Sun Feb 23, 2020 3:58 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:22 am
Power levels are bull....
Where’d you get that from? DBZA?

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by blacksymbiote » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:48 pm

Yep and it's become my stock answer when power level issues crop up.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by blacksymbiote » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:05 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:21 am
blacksymbiote wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
So how's Krillin doing it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ymzngSaH4
Its a reoccurring gag in which Evil-Lunch unloads on the Kame School, the consequences of any injury in DB performed purely for a laugh typically ends abruptly with no repercussions immediately after.
So then why would they be able to kill Vegeta just using Yajirobe's katana?

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by theherodjl » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:55 pm

blacksymbiote wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:05 pm
So then why would they be able to kill Vegeta just using Yajirobe's katana?
Because unlike Lunch's firearms, Yajirobe's sword was never played off as a joke. When it was first introduced, Yajirobe's sword dismembered one of Daimao's offspring. When did Lunch ever kill one of the latest villains with her guns like that?
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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by miguelnuva1 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:41 am

blacksymbiote wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:05 pm
theherodjl wrote:
Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:21 am
blacksymbiote wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:22 pm
So how's Krillin doing it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-ymzngSaH4
Its a reoccurring gag in which Evil-Lunch unloads on the Kame School, the consequences of any injury in DB performed purely for a laugh typically ends abruptly with no repercussions immediately after.
So then why would they be able to kill Vegeta just using Yajirobe's katana?
Vegeta's ki had been reduced to the point that his durability wouldn't have stopped the sword from damaging him.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by QuakingStar » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:43 pm

power levels are just to show how high their ki is, as was explained they can shrink or grow their numbers instantly. On Namek Vegeta explains to Cui I believe that Scouters and numbers(power levels) cannot be relied on anymore. As the power levels don't account for skill, techniques, rage boosts or in the Saiyans case the fact that Saiyans grow stronger AS they fight and will slowly gain on the opponent the longer the battle and again grow stronger after the battle when they heal. Power levels were dropped after Trunks reading of 5 for a reason, they can't be relied on. Hell.. in Xenoverse 2 Bardock says to Mira that power levels can't be relied on when Mira says his power level is higher and then Bardock proceeds hold Mira in a full nelson hold and Mira can't get free no matter what he does.

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by Pantalones » Sat Feb 29, 2020 8:39 am

I've always thought beginning-of-Dragonball kid Goku would be more along the lines of a 20-25 based on just how far above normal humans (and even strongman types like Mr. Satan) he was even back then. That puts him comfortably above both normal humans and the kind of power levels I'd estimate for "ordinary" threats like bears, sharks, small dinosaurs, etc. but also still leaves plenty of room for him to train before becoming Roshi's equal, going by his power level of 139.

Either that, or the original series just does not function on the Z-era power level scale (which makes sense, since it was only added to it after the fact) and you need to come up with a different one to accurately measure everyone rather than trying to squash everyone into the range between 5 and the low 300s. Piccolo Daimao definitely threw out a "half my power!" statement at one point and that definitely does not fit into the guidebook-established levels we have for characters at that point.
Because unlike Lunch's firearms, Yajirobe's sword was never played off as a joke. When it was first introduced, Yajirobe's sword dismembered one of Daimao's offspring. When did Lunch ever kill one of the latest villains with her guns like that?
Also important to note, the amount of force a sword exerts in cutting/stabbing depends on how strong the person wielding it is. Yajirobe is a super-strong freak of nature, and Krillin is a trained fighter with pretty advanced ki control... so both of their sword swings/stabs are going to cut with A LOT more force than if somebody like Bulma had picked it up and tried to do something. There's also the possibility that ki users infuse their ki into weapons to make them more effective (Trunks's sword breaking against #18 but easily slicing Freeza fits with this, since it wasn't the hardness of the opponent's body -- Freeza was actually more mechanical than #17 and #18 -- that was the problem but their amount of raw power. Freeza even at full power was less than what Trunks was capable of, while #18's was much much higher.) It makes a lot of sense that superhuman martial artists can cut things with an ordinary sword that a regular person couldn't.

We also don't know if Yajirobe's sword is perfectly ordinary; I mean, he's a mysterious wandering samurai with superhuman strength despite never learning to use ki, it wouldn't be too far "out there" to believe that his sword could be some sort of enchanted/cursed sword with some unusual strength of its own.

And of course a gun's bullets don't shoot harder if you're strong, barring the possibility of someone trained with ki and guns infusing their ki into each bullet or something (though if you're going to do that, why bother with bullets at all? just channel your ki through the gun and shoot tiny piercing energy blasts instead!) The only way to "power up" a gun is to load ammunition with a stronger charge of gunpowder (and that has a limit, go too far and you risk bursting open your gun barrel from the pressure inside being past what it was built to withstand.)

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Re: Kid Goku didn't have a power-level of ten at the beginning of DB.

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:39 pm

IF an avg human is 5, then a saber-toothed tiger is ATLEAST 6, putting Krillin atleast at 7 (he one-shot a sabertoothed tiger), and a tailless goku wrecked him bad.

A normal grizzly bear shouldn't be below 6, likely 7, and a 20 ft super-agile bear bandit with fighting skills not below 10-15. Goku one-shot it.

Goku pushed a 10+ ton rock before starting roshi training, was crushing boulders with his bare hands, punching tree logs to bits, etc. He broke 3 bricks with one finger. Anyone implying that he's only twice as strong as "average" human is insane.

Edit: Ofcourse power levels are meaningless numbers with a weird scale only relevant to be compared to itself.
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