Bad resources in the original manga.

[Goe]

These days I am rereading the original manga again and, although I enjoy it as a veteran fan I am, I see that it has many bad plot resources, so I propose that we collect them.

It is important to distinguish the difference between continuity failure and bad plot resource. The first is a contradiction, (for example, when Piccolo joins Nail, he is supposed to assimilate his knowledge ... but then he asks Dende if he also has healing powers since he is namekian) and the second is a forced event so that the story goes where it is convenient to the author (a coincidence, the bad ones making silly mistakes that leads them to lose...). I start with the list, by adding the ones that I leave (and if any of those I mention do not think it should be on the list, say so):

-When Goku becomes ohzaru the first time, the main group is saved from Pilaf's plan by chance...casually, there is a full moon.
-Goku is saved from losing against Giran because his tail grows at that moment.
-Krillin also saves his life by chance against Blue because Goku appears at the last moment (Goku and the mouse do not count because it has humorous intention)
-Goku is saved from death because Tao Pai Pai hits him with Dodon-pa in the exact point where he keeps the dragon ball.
-Piccolo Daimaoh is silly and believes Goku is dead after putting his fingers on his neck, and not perceiving his pulse (or he doesn't know how to take the pulse or Goku resurrected for no reason ... I guess it's the first thing).
-Goku almost defeats Raditz by grabbing his tail, but then he sacrifices himself by grabbing him by the armpits "because if he wants he can tear his tail". This may looks like a continuity failure, but it counts as a bad resource because Toriyama did this because it was convenient for Goku to go to the afterlife world, so he forced the situation.
-Raditz wastes time torturing Goku instead of killing him directly, giving Gohan time to save his father with his attack.
-Vegeta, instead of killing Goku directly when he is turned into Oozaru, plays with the poor man to provoke Gohan and Krillin, making it easier for Yajirobai to cut his tail.
-Yajirobai is an idiot and when he can skewer Vegeta with the sword, he simply cracks the skin of his back. Obviously this was because Vegeta dying at the hands of Yajirobai was against the interests of Toriyama (he wanted to make him a charismatic character, and, on the other hand, if Saiyan saga had ended with Yajirobai killing Vegeta from behind would have been disappointing)
- Gohan's tail grows just when it should happen so that the balance declines on the side of the good.
-The fish that jumps in Namek does it just when Vegeta was going to discover Gohan and Krillin, making Vegeta believe that the energy he has noticed is from that fish.
-And another coincidence in Namek! The old chief dies just when Vegeta was going to force Dende to ask the dragon to be immortal.
-When Goku is doing the Genkidama against Frieza, this one instead of attacking him stares at him, asking him what he does with his hands up ... He had better use it to hit him! And even Goku says "wait a bit"!
-When Goku is half drowned at the riverbank, Frieza, instead of killing him directly, starts chattering, telling him that he is going to kill him and blah blah blah. When he sees the reflected Genkidama, instead of killing him as he was saying he was going to do, he starts shouting and showing anger, allowing Goku to recover.
-When Piccolo is beating up Dr. Gero, Trunks appears and they all start a conversation, allowing Gero to escape. The logical thing would be that Piccolo had concentrated on his own, and not that the appearance of Trunks makes him stay still ... especially because they could not detect the energy of Gero, who had it easy to hide.

Surely there are more, these days I have read until the beating of A-18 to Vegeta and I have seen a few, but as I was not writting them down I will have forgot some (and I still have to reread Cell and Bu). I invite you all to complete my list. Greetings and hope this is correct english!

[theherodjl]

I wouldn't say that the things you have listed are necessarily 'bad' plot progressions, more so that they simply are convenient plot progressions.
A truly bad plot progression is Cell regrowing the entire upper half of his incinerated body but then stating in a later chapter that he needs the regenerative clump that resides IN HIS HEAD to be able to do so.

[Goe]

The example about cell is a continuity mistake and I have already said I am not asking about that subject.

Instead, I am asking about Deus ex machina and some related tropes.

[theherodjl]

The example about cell is a continuity mistake and I have already said I am not asking about that subject.

Instead, I am asking about Deus ex machina and some related tropes.

It can be both. Cell could(I use the word lightly since its backed-up poorly) have been able to regenerate even with his head destroyed...but Toriyama probably doesn't even know how exactly Cell did in fact regenerate without his head and so, he left it very much unexplained.

Like I said however: DB has various examples of convenient plot progressions and that doesn't actually make them examples of bad writing or deux ex machina, just that they fall into place more often than expected. But to answer your inquiry, Pure Boo being the result of subtracting Mr. Boo from Super Boo when it should have just turned Super Boo back into Pure Evil Boo.

[Goe]

I think use of casualities for saving good guys are a bad trope (non-DB example: When Tintin saves his life in The broken ear because when the evil guy is going to shoot him, a thunder fall in the house and all characters are thrown away. It’s only one example...because Tintin is full of that situations), same as evil guys being stupid for letting good guys win (non-DB example 1: when Clove, in Hunger games, Clove reduced Katniss and put her knife in her throat. Instead killing her at once, she started to say “hahaha I’m gonna Kill you, and you are going ti suffer hahaha I’ll enjoy it blah blah blah”. Finally, Tresh rescued Katniss grabbing clove at her hair and crushing her head against a tree. Non-DB example 2: in the movie Street Fighter: Legend of Chun-Li, evil guys shot against the heroine several times, but they never hit the mark).

Almost all (or even all) the DB events I have listed are example of both bad tropes. If you disagree with me in that point, I guess you don’t think the Tintin/Hunger games/Street Fighter examples are bad writting.

[theherodjl]

Almost all (or even all) the DB events I have listed are example of both bad tropes. If you disagree with me in that point, I guess you don’t think the Tintin/Hunger games/Street Fighter examples are bad writting.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. If those examples fit your subjective criteria of simple "bad" tropes then that's on you.

[Dbzfan94]

I'm not quite sure what the point of this post is beyond "this is bad"

[Goe]

I'm not quite sure what the point of this post is beyond "this is bad"

Sorry for replying so late, Dbzfan94. The point of this post is only, in fact, doing a “this is bad” list. Personally I like to analize the creative process of fictions, specially DB, since I am a fan since 20 years ago. Even I love DB, I find interesting to look for its bad points, and I Keep enjoying DB even if I am conscious of some bad resources.

By the way, I have found 2 more events to the bad resources list:

When Vegeta finds Bulma and Krilin with the dragon ball just before the fight with Zarbon, the logical thing to do would have been (according to the situation and Vegeta's personality at that time), to kill Bulma and Krilin directly, then Zarbon and take the ball. He had no reason in those moments to respect the life of the two earthlings (neither strategic nor moral), and there was always the possibility that Krilin would screw up his plan in the future (he had already experienced on Earth that even Yajirobai could screw him up with guile). Therefore, Vegeta acted in an incoherent way with his own character because of the inconvenience of the script, which was that Bulma and Krilin would die.

Another one is when Nail tells Freezer what Dende has gone to do. It's a stupid thing to do, because it could cause Freezer to go ahead and the logical thing would have been to wait until they had already made their wishes (He would know by the state of the sky). But he says it before so that Freezer will run for the balls and create the suspense of... Will they get to make the wishes before Freezer arrives? I mean, Nail does something stupid because it seems to suit the script.

[Dbzfan94]

When Vegeta finds Bulma and Krilin with the dragon ball just before the fight with Zarbon, the logical thing to do would have been (according to the situation and Vegeta's personality at that time), to kill Bulma and Krilin directly, then Zarbon and take the ball. He had no reason in those moments to respect the life of the two earthlings (neither strategic nor moral), and there was always the possibility that Krilin would screw up his plan in the future (he had already experienced on Earth that even Yajirobai could screw him up with guile). Therefore, Vegeta acted in an incoherent way with his own character because of the inconvenience of the script, which was that Bulma and Krilin would die.

It's not really out of character. As far as Vegeta was concerned, he had already won. He thought he was 5 minutes from being immortal, so "ah fuck it, not worth the extra breath" is perfectly reasonable within his character and context of the story at the time.

[Goe]

Vegeta was totally merciless then. Even in Android saga, he killed the truck driver just before fighting A-18 only because he was shouting at them. For a character without moral or mercy feelings, killing Bulma and Krillin then is much easier and useful than let them live. Think about this point: when he fighted Zarbon, he was looking out Bulma and Krillin because he was afraid of them escaping. Then, killing them since the beggining would be much safer and, of course, much more useful than killing the truck driver. Respecting their lives and controlling them while fighting Zarbon would be dangerous for Vegeta for evident reasons.

Once he defeated Zarbon, he asked Krillin for the ball and at first, he replied “if I give you the ball, do you promise that you won’t kill me?”. Killing him and Bulma would be much easier and, of course, much safer (enemies may cause problems if they are alive). Vegeta loved being merciless, so he would enjoy killing them. Killing them to celebrate his victory would be much coherent with the character than letting them live since he enjoyed more killing than forgiving lifes.

[nhienphan2808]

Vegeta might have been merciless, but absolutely careful and smart he's not. He and Frieza is a lot a like in that they may rush detailes of plans for different reasons - and that could drive them to overall failing outcomes - for Vegeta, it's losing the dragon balls, and for Frieza, wanting to kill all Saiyans but ultimately beaten by exactly the one he wants to kill. Vegeta could abandon plans for a minutely fun .In the Saiyan Saga the only people he killed was his men, and that was for his pride after they are defeated. Bulma and Krillin has nothing to do with his pride. As he didnt see The Earthlings can mess with him, he spared them because exactly what he said "I am in a good mood".

This can sound like my personal intuitions about him, but Vegeta is both more evil and ruthless and less so than popular belief. He's weirdly ruthless to HIS people, but as long as he sees no harm from total strangers he would spare them. Vegeta's equivalent is that demanding boss and father figure in a family that is seeming nice at work as in public but would kill his own family for damaging his image/not matching his expectation. Also I have seen it said that he had changed gradually since his defeat. I disagree. He had been like that since coming to Earth, telling Nappa that "Not necessary, they are not our enemy", despite saying he would kill all of Earth earlier.

[TobyS]

Vegeta would be considered a merciless person but not absolutely so.

He barely got beat on earth and now he's significantly stronger than that. Kuririn alone isn't gonna inconvenience him more now than all the others did.

He killed Nappa but that was because he couldn't fight. (And probably wanted to intimidate his enemies)

You could argue either way he respects kuririn somewhat, or because he didn't respect him didn't want to spend the minimal effort required to kill him.

He's happy because he thinks he's seconds away from success. He may even want witnesses to his ascension.

[Anonymous Friend]

First, you do realize that all fiction is fake, non-happening stories that are made up, right? Sometimes us nerds and fans kinda forget that as we go deeper down the rabbit whole. The moment we come across something that doesn't sound right, just remember that somebody made that up.

Secondly, real life is even more screwed up that fiction. Things often happen and you have no way of finding out why it happened.

Thirdly, without coincidence and contrivance, nothing ever happens in a story. Everybody just goes along their boring ass lives doing nothing interesting. Or worse yet, their story ends right then and there. The End.

Also, these sort of coincidence and contrivances have been used to enjoyable measures since the very first story was passed around.

[Goe]

Vegeta might have been merciless, but absolutely careful and smart he's not.

He wasn't stupid after all and did really intelligent things in Namek. Being merciless and not having reasons to let Bulma and Krillin alive (nor strategic or moral) but not killing them, has no logical sense, so is a bad plot resource.

Freezer's mistake about destroying the saiyans and being beaten by one of them wasn't a non-sense mistake. Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz were useful and much more weaker than himself, Zarbon, Dodoria and Ginyu force, so he has logical reasons to do so. And he forgot about Kakarot. There are understandtable mistakes (he has logical reasons to use that 3 saiyans, and people forget things) but Vegeta letting Bulma and Krillin live not, for the given reasons (he has logical reasons to kill them only).

Vegeta would be considered a merciless person but not absolutely so.

Then, he was absolutely merciless. He said cruel things to Gohan while trying to kill his father, he enjoyed killing Nappa, he killed a whole namekian village and laughed when Porunga didn't resurrect them, he threw a Big Bang Attack near Bulma and baby Trunks and when Mirai Trunks said that may be dangerous for his family, he said he doesn't care. He killed the truck driver for no reason, and only when Cell killed Trunks, he acted with a bit of mercy (but he kept being evil, remember he killed hunreds of human beings in Tenkaichi Budokai in Boo Saga).

Given the psychological profile of him, the logical thing is he killing Bulma and Krillin, but that wasn't convenient to the plot.

Anonymous friend, I guess you didn't like my thread. So:

1.I love DB manga, but loving something doesn't imply not to seek it weak points.
2.I like to analize that kind of things, I find it interesting. If you don't like to do so, it's ok, but personally I like.
3.Even if they have been using since the first fictional story was created, they are bad resources and it's better to avoid it. However, I admit creating a fictional story without using Deus Ex Machina or other similar bad resources are really hard and I think I couldn't do so. But despite of that, I like to point when someone did it, even if is one of my favourite authors (like Toriyama)