SSJ multipliers change!?

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SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Feb 29, 2020 2:59 pm

Can someone explain these whole Multiplier decrease theories I hear so often. Please someone elaborate.

Some explain the multipliers for Z

Gt

and Super

According to them and with (hopefully) evidence. Every form they can assign a multiplier to as well

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by emperior » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:14 pm

Well, first of all the main story NEVER acknowledged any Super Saiyan multiplier whatsoever. Meaningful Power Levels disappeared once Freeza said his 2nd form was around 1 million (so ignoring Trunks’ suppressed PL and Freeza’s line in RoF), and any concrete info we have on PLs and multipliers beyond that comes from supplemental material that can easily be ignored (would a new fan who buys and reads the manga even know of such information?).

Second, the transformations serve the STORY. Dragon Ball isn’t a videogame. Why should the transformation’s multipliers be so rigid? As long as we know that, for example, base Trunks can’t defeat Freeza it’s not like it changes anything if transforming powers him up twice, ten or fifty fold.

Actually, the multipliers for the transformations being lower only help explain many things. Such as, off the top of my head:
- Base Goku would be a chump compared to Piccolo, after they trained for 3 years in preparation for the androids... why, when before that base Goku had always been stronger than Piccolo?;
- Vegeta is confident he can win the 25th tournament without transforming, even though Piccolo is there;
- Base Goku and Vegeta understood Dabura wasn’t all that much by seeing his movements;
- Base Goku can block, survive and narrolwy deflect a blast from Majin Vegeta;
- Gotenks goes to challenge Buu without transforming, and survives;
- Piccolo has some hope base Gotenks can beat Super Buu;
- Base Vegeta survives some hits from the pure Majin Buu.

But, considering this theory has been more prominent nowadays because of Super, let’s consider stuff from there:
- Base Goku can fight on par with Final Form Freeza, and that Goku has SS1, SS2, SS3, SSG and Blue up his sleeves as other transformations. So going by Daizenshuu, he could at worst get 400x stronger by going SS3... how fucking strong is he? It makes no logical sense if you think about it, especially not with the Tournament of Power in mind;
- Base Goku can fight it out on the same ground as Hit without getting murdered - yes the story acknowledges he is weaker, but he still can make Hit bleed with a good punch;
- Base Goku and Vegeta can survive being punched by Merged Zamasu (in the manga) without even being knocked out, although he admits holding back to toy with them;
- The Tournament of Power has PLENTY of these examples, both in the anime and manga (ex. How can a teamwork of base Goku and Vegeta do something to Jiren?)
- Base Goku can fight for a bit with the same Broly who tanked a punch from Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

I’m sure there are many other examples to prove this theory is not just headcanon. One last thing I will say is that, in my opinion, it doesn’t make much sense that they lose all that fighting ability they have when transformed once they revert back to their normal state.
So basically my idea is that once Saiyans achieve a transformation, they retain some of that power in their base state but have to transform to have that full power - sort of like what happens in Battle of Gods with Goku retaining his godly power.

And powerscaling works in tiers of power, as it always worked before PLs were introduced. Nothing is broken in the internal logic of the story if the transformations don’t boost Goku’s power that much.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:25 am

emperior wrote: Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:14 pm Well, first of all the main story NEVER acknowledged any Super Saiyan multiplier whatsoever. Meaningful Power Levels disappeared once Freeza said his 2nd form was around 1 million (so ignoring Trunks’ suppressed PL and Freeza’s line in RoF), and any concrete info we have on PLs and multipliers beyond that comes from supplemental material that can easily be ignored (would a new fan who buys and reads the manga even know of such information?).

Second, the transformations serve the STORY. Dragon Ball isn’t a videogame. Why should the transformation’s multipliers be so rigid? As long as we know that, for example, base Trunks can’t defeat Freeza it’s not like it changes anything if transforming powers him up twice, ten or fifty fold.

Actually, the multipliers for the transformations being lower only help explain many things. Such as, off the top of my head:
- Base Goku would be a chump compared to Piccolo, after they trained for 3 years in preparation for the androids... why, when before that base Goku had always been stronger than Piccolo?;
- Vegeta is confident he can win the 25th tournament without transforming, even though Piccolo is there;
- Base Goku and Vegeta understood Dabura wasn’t all that much by seeing his movements;
- Base Goku can block, survive and narrolwy deflect a blast from Majin Vegeta;
- Gotenks goes to challenge Buu without transforming, and survives;
- Piccolo has some hope base Gotenks can beat Super Buu;
- Base Vegeta survives some hits from the pure Majin Buu.

But, considering this theory has been more prominent nowadays because of Super, let’s consider stuff from there:
- Base Goku can fight on par with Final Form Freeza, and that Goku has SS1, SS2, SS3, SSG and Blue up his sleeves as other transformations. So going by Daizenshuu, he could at worst get 400x stronger by going SS3... how fucking strong is he? It makes no logical sense if you think about it, especially not with the Tournament of Power in mind;
- Base Goku can fight it out on the same ground as Hit without getting murdered - yes the story acknowledges he is weaker, but he still can make Hit bleed with a good punch;
- Base Goku and Vegeta can survive being punched by Merged Zamasu (in the manga) without even being knocked out, although he admits holding back to toy with them;
- The Tournament of Power has PLENTY of these examples, both in the anime and manga (ex. How can a teamwork of base Goku and Vegeta do something to Jiren?)
- Base Goku can fight for a bit with the same Broly who tanked a punch from Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

I’m sure there are many other examples to prove this theory is not just headcanon. One last thing I will say is that, in my opinion, it doesn’t make much sense that they lose all that fighting ability they have when transformed once they revert back to their normal state.
So basically my idea is that once Saiyans achieve a transformation, they retain some of that power in their base state but have to transform to have that full power - sort of like what happens in Battle of Gods with Goku retaining his godly power.

And powerscaling works in tiers of power, as it always worked before PLs were introduced. Nothing is broken in the internal logic of the story if the transformations don’t boost Goku’s power that much.
Here's the thing, I can buy them decreasing with the excuse that Saiyans absorb more of the power and the transformation is them being further pushed to that level of power. However what about Kaioken, not that it is used much any more but if it were wouldn't it be better than most form according to these decreases

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:45 am

Mad Swami wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:25 am Here's the thing, I can buy them decreasing with the excuse that Saiyans absorb more of the power and the transformation is them being further pushed to that level of power. However what about Kaioken, not that it is used much any more but if it were wouldn't it be better than most form according to these decreases
My own personal rationalization is that the Kaoiken is extremely stressful to use, even if it leads to a massive power up. In the the Cell Arc we see that Goku doesn't value power for power's sake. He's much more interested in how to use his power efficiently and if his fight against Cell is anything to go by, it's the right way for him to go.

There's other rationalizations we can go with too. Maybe SSJ is a different type of transformation than the Kaioken. Kaioken might be a straight power multiplier (something that increases the amount of ki your in your body) while SSJ might just be a way to bring all your ki to the surface that also improves how rapidly your body replenishes its ki. Dragon Ball's power system doesn't have any hard rules. While there's a lot of wuxia in it, Dragon Ball has never tied itself down in the details of how things work or why so these questions don't really have satisfactory answers.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by emperior » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:34 am

Mad Swami wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:25 am Here's the thing, I can buy them decreasing with the excuse that Saiyans absorb more of the power and the transformation is them being further pushed to that level of power. However what about Kaioken, not that it is used much any more but if it were wouldn't it be better than most form according to these decreases
Maybe Kaioken too leads to diminishing gains or is internalized.
Or maybe Goku, who is the only one who mastered it, could only use it due to his Saiyan genes and once he finished getting near-death boosts Kaioken didn’t work
anymore.

I know Super throws this theory out of the water, but Toriyama still refuses to use Kaioken in his stories and once said that he felt like Super Saiyan was a 10x boost.
I doubt he always envisioned SS as a 50x boost when drawing the manga, and I doubt he does so nowadays.

Maybe, though, my theory only works for modern material? It’s canonical that Goku absorbed SSG’s power in his Super Saiyan form and even in his base form, and he still could go God as shown at the end of his battle with Beerus in BoG so if anything I will theorize that ever since those events Goku’s been boosted a lot in his normal state, his SS forms do not give him immense boosts as they used to and Blue is sort of like his new Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 or 3 in terms of power increase from his base.

Besides, in RoF Goku was so fast in his base the others could barely keep up with his movements and they commented he was stronger than ever.
And in Broly, Vegeta starts out stronger than Broly in his base form, then Broly catches up and forces him to go Super Saiyan which feels like a little boost considering it’s not enough to obliterate Broly as he catches up quickly, while God is and the only way Broly can get to that level is through his rage form (which is supposed to make him 10x stronger, like Oozaru).

So, going by the recent fights written by Toriyama, it seems like the multipliers have been lowered.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:48 am

emperior wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:34 am
Mad Swami wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 2:25 am Here's the thing, I can buy them decreasing with the excuse that Saiyans absorb more of the power and the transformation is them being further pushed to that level of power. However what about Kaioken, not that it is used much any more but if it were wouldn't it be better than most form according to these decreases
Maybe Kaioken too leads to diminishing gains or is internalized.
Or maybe Goku, who is the only one who mastered it, could only use it due to his Saiyan genes and once he finished getting near-death boosts Kaioken didn’t work
anymore.

I know Super throws this theory out of the water, but Toriyama still refuses to use Kaioken in his stories and once said that he felt like Super Saiyan was a 10x boost.
I doubt he always envisioned SS as a 50x boost when drawing the manga, and I doubt he does so nowadays.

Maybe, though, my theory only works for modern material? It’s canonical that Goku absorbed SSG’s power in his Super Saiyan form and even in his base form, and he still could go God as shown at the end of his battle with Beerus in BoG so if anything I will theorize that ever since those events Goku’s been boosted a lot in his normal state, his SS forms do not give him immense boosts as they used to and Blue is sort of like his new Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 or 3 in terms of power increase from his base.

Besides, in RoF Goku was so fast in his base the others could barely keep up with his movements and they commented he was stronger than ever.
And in Broly, Vegeta starts out stronger than Broly in his base form, then Broly catches up and forces him to go Super Saiyan which feels like a little boost considering it’s not enough to obliterate Broly as he catches up quickly, while God is and the only way Broly can get to that level is through his rage form (which is supposed to make him 10x stronger, like Oozaru).

So, going by the recent fights written by Toriyama, it seems like the multipliers have been lowered.
I think if I were to throw my hat into this ring and attempt to assign multipliers, I would try and keep gaps. So for instance Oozaru is 10 and SSJ 1 is 50, meaning SSJ is 5x Oozaru. So in this decrease instead I'm thinking

Oozaru is a 2
SSJ is a 10
SSj2 is a 20
SSJ3 is a 80
SSG is 800
SSGSS is 950

I don't agree with this but that would be my attempt if this was the case.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Desassina » Sun Mar 01, 2020 5:57 am

No, the multipliers don't change, but the characters do between forms, and these are an amount higher than before, which isn't fixed nor static like Kaioken. For Goku to be stronger than base, he can change into SSJ at any given level, so as long as it is higher, but in the Cell Games, he began with SSJ for his base, powered up to half in front of Karin, and all the way up to its fullest against Cell. Had SSJ been 50 all along, there would be no room for Goku to be less than half so that he could power up towards the latter, and Gohan would have dropped from SSJ2 with less than half of his power had this form been 100. So what do these characters do? They change forms to increase their strength, agility and energy, improving the limits that they can power up to.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:32 am

The base power is what changes, not the multiplier. This is the major power level thing that most fans forget: Super Saiyan and So On aren't "Jump straight to 500,000 do not pass Go", they amplify the power that was already there in the base form, so characters can use the same transformation and come to different numbers.

Throughout Dragon Ball and through to Z, we see characters become more and more powerful and raise their base strength without the use of transformations (for example, Goku goes from 10 to 3 million as he grows and trains before even obtaining Super Saiyan as an option). Considering Saiyans aren't ones to rest on their laurels, it stands to reason that they'll keep training and raising their base power even after attaining Super Saiyan, which is why I believe End of Z Goku would have a more than fair chance at beating Complete Cell in his base form.

This works the opposite way too: Vegeta criticizes Gohan for not training which lowers his base power, which is why he struggled against Yakon despite using Super Saiyan, which he'd mastered as a youth.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Psajdak » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:03 am

I don't know; I don't remember ever hearing word multipliers in anime, regarding SSs.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:42 am

Psajdak wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:03 am I don't know; I don't remember ever hearing word multipliers in anime, regarding SSs.
It has been mentioned in interviews: at the end of the Super Exiting Guide: Story book, Toriyama said in the interview that he drew the Super Saiyan transformation as a x10 increase, as he felt x50 was too large. This is odd because Goku had used Kaio-Ken x20 against Frieza to no effect, haha.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Psajdak » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:56 am

KBABZ wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:42 am It has been mentioned in interviews: at the end of the Super Exiting Guide: Story book, Toriyama said in the interview that he drew the Super Saiyan transformation as a x10 increase, as he felt x50 was too large. This is odd because Goku had used Kaio-Ken x20 against Frieza to no effect, haha.
Where did x50 come from?

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:23 am

Psajdak wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:56 am
KBABZ wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 8:42 am It has been mentioned in interviews: at the end of the Super Exiting Guide: Story book, Toriyama said in the interview that he drew the Super Saiyan transformation as a x10 increase, as he felt x50 was too large. This is odd because Goku had used Kaio-Ken x20 against Frieza to no effect, haha.
Where did x50 come from?
The math is here, under the "The Battle With Freeza" section.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 am

No. Multipliers don't change.

• Oozaru will always increase base power level by 10 times.
• Super Saiyan will always increase base power level by 50 times.
• Super Saiyan 2 will always increase base power level by 100 times.
• Super Saiyan 3 will always increase base power level by 400 times.
• Metamoru and Potara fusions will always multiply base power level of one fusee by the other one.

This method is interesting because it all comes down to the power level of the base form at the end of the day. Allowing the characters to keep evolving to the point that, for example, while Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza in Freeza saga, a Cell saga or Majin Buu saga Goku certainly does not, which also gives you the feeling of progression in a way.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:14 am

Grimlock wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 am • Metamoru and Potara fusions will always multiply base power level of one fusee by the other one.
Which IMO is TOTALLY broken, but anyway.
Grimlock wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 am This method is interesting because it all comes down to the power level of the base form at the end of the day. Allowing the characters to keep evolving to the point that, for example, while Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza in Freeza saga, a Cell saga or Majin Buu saga Goku certainly does not, which also gives you the feeling of progression in a way.
Agreed! Transformations are a fantastic way to quickly jump your battle power to a level you need, but that doesn't throw away the worth of your base power either as a new villain dwarfs the one you just defeated. I feel Toriyama was very clever in this way when he elaborated on the Super Saiyan transformations in the Cell and Buu arcs: the trade-off of speed and pure energy drain makes these impractical outside of special occasions (kinda like Kaio-Ken was). Thus, working on your base power will always be more helpful in the long run than trying to shoot for Super Saiyan 15.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:27 pm

KBABZ wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:14 amWhich IMO is TOTALLY broken, but anyway.
Well, I fail to see what's broken. Seems fine as far as I can tell.
KBABZ wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:14 amAgreed! Transformations are a fantastic way to quickly jump your battle power to a level you need, but that doesn't throw away the worth of your base power either as a new villain dwarfs the one you just defeated. I feel Toriyama was very clever in this way when he elaborated on the Super Saiyan transformations in the Cell and Buu arcs: the trade-off of speed and pure energy drain makes these impractical outside of special occasions (kinda like Kaio-Ken was). Thus, working on your base power will always be more helpful in the long run than trying to shoot for Super Saiyan 15.
Yeah, but the problem with this is what Toriyama did in one of the interviews. Taking this concept to the extreme and coming up with ilogical stuff. Though improving base form is the way, it will never surpass the power that your transformations give you. Like he said that training base and Super Saiyan could be stronger than the next forms or something along the lines. No. And that's exactly because multipliers don't change. Whatever happens to your base form, it will affect ALL transformations, not just the most basic one(s). Super Saiyan 2 is and will forever be stronger and perform better than Super Saiyan, and seeing as how Super Saiyan 2 doesn't have any major drawbacks, it is best to improve the base form as best as one can so that the Super Saiyan 2 can do the job most of the times, without having to rely on crap Super Saiyan 3 or any other forms with major drawbacks.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by emperior » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:30 pm

If base can’t be increased to a level higher than transformations, then Ultimate Gohan makes no sense and he should be able to go Super Saiyan on top of that.

Also, Ultra Instinct seems like it is used in base form - even though it turns the hair and eyes silver - and the prerequisite mentioned by Merus of having a calm heart in front of a shock of the emotions suggests it is incompatible with Super Saiyan. So, again, it’s a technique that vastly improves the base power.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:36 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:01 am No. Multipliers don't change.


• Metamoru and Potara fusions will always multiply base power level of one fusee by the other one.

I know that was a popular thing but that's absolutely not how it works, I think Vados even says possible formula of like A + B X 10's. Even then don't love that because I think it's near impossible to assign a formula

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Psajdak » Sun Mar 01, 2020 4:26 pm

I had some idea that one interesting training for Goku would have been to get used to Super Saiyan 3 the same way he and Gohan learned to use Super Saiyan as their normal state.

Simply because SS3 is such a fierce state.

Dunno, I kinda like this stuff, it reminds me of some RPG games where you, even after obtaining some new ability, still had to use it for a while to, well, get used to it.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 6:04 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 3:27 pm Yeah, but the problem with this is what Toriyama did in one of the interviews. Taking this concept to the extreme and coming up with ilogical stuff. Though improving base form is the way, it will never surpass the power that your transformations give you. Like he said that training base and Super Saiyan could be stronger than the next forms or something along the lines. No. And that's exactly because multipliers don't change. Whatever happens to your base form, it will affect ALL transformations, not just the most basic one(s). Super Saiyan 2 is and will forever be stronger and perform better than Super Saiyan, and seeing as how Super Saiyan 2 doesn't have any major drawbacks, it is best to improve the base form as best as one can so that the Super Saiyan 2 can do the job most of the times, without having to rely on crap Super Saiyan 3 or any other forms with major drawbacks.
I think Toriyama meant from a standing point, so to speak. Obviously going SS2 will provide a much quicker boost, but as shown in the Cell arc, perfecting Super Saiyan as a completely unstressful multiplier and working with your first transformation from there proved to be the wiser choice over chasing the SS2 dream. It made for a solid starting point from which Gohan could then pull SS2 out when the time came.

Personally, I think in terms of body stress and energy usage, SS2 was as stressful on Gohan's body and SS1 was on Goku's body when he first did it. If Gohan hadn't mastered SS1, then going to SS2 would have been equivalent to when Goku went SS3 (not to mention the sheer personality change).

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:20 pm

No. Nothing was ever stated or implied. It would also make no sense, why would transformations become less effective? based on what? since when?

I assume the theories exist because people try to fit the sometimes-confusing show with their own interpretation of the events.

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