SSJ multipliers change!?

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Saturnine
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Saturnine » Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:56 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:45 pm
Saturnine wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:09 pm Efficiency is such a vague term. What matters in DB fights is battle power, first and foremost. If Grade 4 doesn't give you more power, the benefit of not wasting stamina in and of itself is not that big a deal.
tell that to Toriyama and Toyotaro. In the end, it's the same concept behind Complete Blue.
Greater efficiency means being able to use full power longer, or even being able to bring out more power for the same cost.
Come on. Grade 4 was clearly stronger. If it weren't, Goku would have used Grade 2 on top of it to get an advantage over Cell. He didn't.

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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:45 pm

But you're assuming two transformations can be used at the same time. Or that Super Saiyan Grade 2 can have its power absorbed in order to use it with the regular Super Saiyan (like Super Saiyan God power can be absorbed for that same effect). We don't even know if that's possible, so we can't say "Goku would have used it".

As for "Super Saiyan Grade 4", pretty sure it was already established that the only thing it does is remove the side effects of the Super Saiyan form (like excessive anger, not much control over power and etc). It was never said its multiplier is different (we are still talking about the same transformation, after all. "Super Saiyan Grade 4" is the regular Super Saiyan at the end of the day),
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by BWri » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:19 am

theherodjl wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 4:19 am IMHO, the only actual concrete multiplier that exists is for the Kaio-ken. Every SSJ transformation probably varies at least a little bit from Saiyan to Saiyan, pulling out a similarly large degree of latent potential based on an individual Saiyan's genetics & growth.
We know for a fact this is true just based on the concept of the mastered Super Saiyan state which seemingly becomes the default Super Saiyan state over time. MSSJ was head and shoulders above even Grade 2 which was much much stronger than the standard SSJ. So a default 50x boost is likely obsolete in all the arcs after MSSJ is introduced. It's unclear, since the characters never delineate who has MSSJ vs SSJ after the Cell arc, which leads me to believe everyone, from Kid Trunks to Caulifla, either has MSSJ or the boost naturally varies from character to character.
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:17 pm Probably the fusion's PL "starts" where the fusee's PL peaked, which narratively speaking sounds the most convenient IMO.
I never heard this before. It's perfect! This is how it should work.
Hugo Boss wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:56 am I think there is one instance in the fight between Cabba and Vegeta that might imply Super Saiyan doesn’t increase equally all the fighting abilities. Vegeta pointed that as a normal Saiyan their performance was similar, but he wondered how it will play out when both fight as Super Saiyans. It seems Vegeta had quite an advantage still.
Nice reference! Yeah, this is what I refer to above. So this proves that not everyone after Goku and Gohan has MSSJ and that their is a clear difference between a fighter using MSSJ and SSJ.
Saturnine wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:09 pm Efficiency is such a vague term. What matters in DB fights is battle power, first and foremost. If Grade 4 doesn't give you more power, the benefit of not wasting stamina in and of itself is not that big a deal.
That's the thing that annoys me with DB, especially with forms like UI and MSSJ, everything still vaguely leads to massive power increase even if that's not what the form is stated to be doing. With MSSJ it makes a little more sense in that the conserved power can be "cashed out" whenever but the story still treats it like bigger numbah moar powah! The only way it'd logically grant so much more power over the previous grades is if SSJ burned through stamina like SSJ3 which it never has.
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 2:39 pm Similar with other forms. Super Saiyan 3 grants the user 4x more power than Super Saiyan 1 to play with, almost like upgrading a computer. Almost. But that doesn't mean Super Saiyan 1 couldn't reach Super Saiyan 3 levels of power if Goku were willing to destroy his body to get there, or that Super Saiyan 3 couldn't be suppressed to Goku's base level of ki.
Yeah, the SSJ2 Trunks vs SSJ3 Goku fight backs up this logic. Then there's also mutated angry Vegeta. But that leads into a conversation about SSJ transformations themselves not just the multipliers.
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Re: SSJ multipliers change!?

Post by Saturnine » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:07 pm

BWri wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:19 am That's the thing that annoys me with DB, especially with forms like UI and MSSJ, everything still vaguely leads to massive power increase even if that's not what the form is stated to be doing. With MSSJ it makes a little more sense in that the conserved power can be "cashed out" whenever but the story still treats it like bigger numbah moar powah! The only way it'd logically grant so much more power over the previous grades is if SSJ burned through stamina like SSJ3 which it never has.
Well there's another logical explanation for that. Imagine it being like Grade 2, but with the body adapted and acclimated there is no expansion of muscles and no power leakage. At least that's another possible explanation for why it's so strong.

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