Can UI Be Beaten By A Fighter Who Is Faster?

[theherodjl]

Suppose Goku encounters an opponent who can strike with theoretically-limitless speed? Would UI be able to counter the attacks of a massively-faster fighter or would it simply overwhelm Goku and force him back to the drawing board?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well Jiren was keeping up with Goku and even beating him at points, so it seems like it. Even if your body can react on its own, if your opponent can send signals from their brain to their body so fast that your own body can't keep up, you'll still get hit.

[theherodjl]

So...the philosophy & method of eliminating conscious thought in a fight is ultimately pointless against some random guy with a higher Ki that can just raise his strength & speed to outmaneuver pure technique?
I predict that we are going to be seeing SSJMUI here soon enough.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I think it's a mistake to look at UI so literally. UI represents a romanticized view of combat where the fighter acts without the burden of ego (in the Freudian sense). To me it's similar to stuff you'd see in old martial arts films where a fighter would be overwhelmed by an emotion, usually grief, and their sorrow would guide their movements as they fought.

Vegeta is going in the opposite direction. He's looking to embody the romanticized view of martial arts as mastery over the self and, as he's being presented as roughly Goku's equal, that's the series taking an agnostic stance on what the best way to do martial arts is.

[theherodjl]

I think it's a mistake to look at UI so literally. UI represents a romanticized view of combat where the fighter acts without the burden of ego (in the Freudian sense). To me it's similar to stuff you'd see in old martial arts films where a fighter would be overwhelmed by an emotion, usually grief, and their sorrow would guide their movements as they fought.

Vegeta is going in the opposite direction. He's looking to embody the romanticized view of martial arts as mastery over the self and, as he's being presented as roughly Goku's equal, that's the series taking an agnostic stance on what the best way to do martial arts is.

It's worth noting that the manga seems to have upheld a literal portrayal of UI while the anime had Goku exhibit a moment of righteous fury in order to defeat Jiren. Given that the anime is full of twists & turns regarding differences in strength between characters, I suppose it couldn't be helped.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

It's worth noting that the manga seems to have upheld a literal portrayal of UI while the anime had Goku exhibit a moment of righteous fury in order to defeat Jiren. Given that the anime is full of twists & turns regarding differences in strength between characters, I suppose it couldn't be helped.

Yeah, that the anime and manga are both technically adaptations of the same thing (Toriyama's outlines) makes it harder to pin down the finer points. Without "core" material we're kinda just stumbling in the dark. More so than usual anyway

[Lionel]

Apparently Ultra Instinct also has the benefit of enabling the fighter to still operate using whatever passes as codified martial arts in the DB universe. I'm guessing muscle memory has allowed for that. Otherwise, the fighter would have lost all their finesse and devolved back into savage primacy with flailing fists, kicks, and biting like some enraged chimpanzee or gorilla.

[Matches Malone]

So...the philosophy & method of eliminating conscious thought in a fight is ultimately pointless against some random guy with a higher Ki that can just raise his strength & speed to outmaneuver pure technique?

Yes, but I think it's going to be such a rarity that UI will remain the strongest technique.

[Polyphase Avatron]

So...the philosophy & method of eliminating conscious thought in a fight is ultimately pointless against some random guy with a higher Ki that can just raise his strength & speed to outmaneuver pure technique?
I predict that we are going to be seeing SSJMUI here soon enough.

Well I would say that you need to be significantly stronger to beat someone with UI if you don't already have it. So it's a huge advantage.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, the body seems to have a limit for what it can do, even if you reset the thought process needed to perform a movement. Someone might have much faster sinapses and body structure able to sustain a fight against an Ultra Instinct user. So yeah, it’s possible.

[Psajdak]

Every transformation eventually becomes obsolete, and Ultra Instinct is no different.

The only future I see for it is, just like with Super Saiyan, is Goku using it to demonstrate his power before new opponents, or characters who underestimate him; before activating something even more powerful.

[Desassina]

Ultra Instincts Omen is passive aggressiveness in discussion. People get avoidant until the other loses his temper so that the former can switch to a counter by forming an actual opinion. The latter completes Ultra Instincts.

It is to become selfless in order to react naturally and through it to complete your moves' roster by getting aware. Goku can only fail to react to a faster fighter in case he's not been pushed by him. He needs to have battled and experienced the other beforehand. Otherwise, he will have put his mind into dancing around the opponent, just like Roshi in the manga and Vegeta (when he saw through Jiren's patterns) in the anime.

[ankokudaishogun]

So...the philosophy & method of eliminating conscious thought in a fight is ultimately pointless against some random guy with a higher Ki that can just raise his strength & speed to outmaneuver pure technique?

Sure, but it requires an opponent EXTREMELY stronger\faster.
Jiren managed because he was something like 20 times as strong as Goku

It's worth noting that the manga seems to have upheld a literal portrayal of UI while the anime had Goku exhibit a moment of righteous fury in order to defeat Jiren. Given that the anime is full of twists & turns regarding differences in strength between characters, I suppose it couldn't be helped.

Manga went the "no earthly attachments" route
Anime went "separation between mind\heart\spirit(心) and body\movement"

Two more-or-less common tropes in martial arts(mostly fictional martial arts)

[ABED]

Manga went the "no earthly attachments" route
Anime went "separation between mind\heart\spirit(心) and body\movement"

I don't get why there's a difference. What the hell does having no Earthly attachments have to do with a technique where you react without conscious thought?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Manga went the "no earthly attachments" route
Anime went "separation between mind\heart\spirit(心) and body\movement"

I don't get why there's a difference. What the hell does having no Earthly attachments have to do with a technique where you react without conscious thought?

Maybe a reference to the buddhist idea of emptiness? In buddhist mysticism, monks enter a deep meditative state which dissolves the self and opens the monk to the fullness of reality. Supposedly our senses, thoughts, and emotions impede our ability to "see" things. Thus by removing the self, the monk becomes able to see things for what they really are.

[ankokudaishogun]

Manga went the "no earthly attachments" route
Anime went "separation between mind\heart\spirit(心) and body\movement"

I don't get why there's a difference. What the hell does having no Earthly attachments have to do with a technique where you react without conscious thought?

It's mostly a philosophical one.

The difference between not having emotions and having emotions but not letting them influence you.
If you need examples:
the Power of Nothingness in Street Fighter is described as:

The Power of Nothingness is a state of consciousness transcending ordinary perspective, born through spiritual and mental refinement. Bearing common traits with states of being within Buddhism, martial arts, and spiritual perfection, it is the power to act without being attached to emotions and thought, free of fear, anger, pride, and ego, to draw upon the contents of one's heart intuitively without obstacle and hesitation, and to be aware of the world and to know one's place and meaning within its vastness, to flow with all of creation without the need of worry, desire, and doubt.

remembers you anything?


The other side is what is exemplified by the Meikyōshisui\Clear Mirror Still Water from G-Gundam.
Emotion are power, but one shouldn't be ruled by them.
Instead, one should strive to keep a calm heart\mind\heart like a clear mirror of still water, and using those emotions as source of strenght.
Which is what Goku was doing in the anime.

Strictly speaking, Vegeta seems to going the "have emotions but not being ruled by them" route in the manga as well