How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

dragonball0900
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:46 pm

I know that one of the most common answers is going to be "power scaling ruined by Toei" or something like that. But the fact is that one of the trio, Basil, was dominated by Mr. Buu, who is far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. Meanwhile, Base Goku is apparently (and I said apparently here) stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as shown in the Copy Vegeta filler saga. So how can someone that is dominated by Fat Buu be able to fight on par with someone stronger than Gotenks?

And what about when Basil could hold his own against that U10 guy (I believe he was from U10, right?), that guy forced Caulifla to transform into Super Saiyan, so how can someone that is probably Mr. Buu tier can force someone that is far above SSJ3 Gotenks to transform into SSJ? Or am I missing something here?

User avatar
Triggered Vegeta
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:44 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:00 pm

The show is all over the place. Toei doesn't know how to power scale. Base Saiyan's power fluctuate vastly. One second can fight Beerus/ Monaka, few episodes later he's fighting on par with Roshi. Like he couldn't lift that guy that hugged him, but 18 picks both up casually. The power he showed against Frieza in RoF was retconned.... But comes back from time to time, then it's made weak again a few episodes later.

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5968
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:16 pm

You just have to accept that inconsistencies like this exist.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
Tai Lung
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:24 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:46 pm
I know that one of the most common answers is going to be "power scaling ruined by Toei" or something like that. But the fact is that one of the trio, Basil, was dominated by Mr. Buu, who is far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. Meanwhile, Base Goku is apparently (and I said apparently here) stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks as shown in the Copy Vegeta filler saga. So how can someone that is dominated by Fat Buu be able to fight on par with someone stronger than Gotenks?

And what about when Basil could hold his own against that U10 guy (I believe he was from U10, right?), that guy forced Caulifla to transform into Super Saiyan, so how can someone that is probably Mr. Buu tier can force someone that is far above SSJ3 Gotenks to transform into SSJ? Or am I missing something here?
filler is filler, not that there is much explanation the return of the ssj god Goku is to clarify that "goku base" is only a little stronger than it was in dbz ...

dragonball0900
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:27 pm

Oh, and there's also Fit Buu.

Fit Buu is supposed to be far stronger than Fat Buu, yet Fit Buu could only fight on par with Base Goku and beat him via strategy. And since Fat Buu is above Basil, then that's another reason why him and his brothers being able to hold their own against Base Goku doesn't make sense.

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:22 pm

A lot of things work better if you ignore the whole Base Goku/Vegeta beats SS3 Gotenks thing. It's not hard, Gotenks is worth about as much to the series as Yamcha nowadays, while Fat Buu is still supposed to be pretty strong when he can be bothered to show up.

Also, do you really consider "not being able to throw Goku out in his weakest form with a 10 on 1 numbers advantage" to be competing against him? I'm not a fan of arguing the power levels are whack just because a character doesn't get stomped, see also Trunks vs Black and Zamasu. This isn't the manga, they got fight scenes to animate.

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1518
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:04 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:22 pm
A lot of things work better if you ignore the whole Base Goku/Vegeta beats SS3 Gotenks thing. It's not hard, Gotenks is worth about as much to the series as Yamcha nowadays, while Fat Buu is still supposed to be pretty strong when he can be bothered to show up.

Also, do you really consider "not being able to throw Goku out in his weakest form with a 10 on 1 numbers advantage" to be competing against him? I'm not a fan of arguing the power levels are whack just because a character doesn't get stomped, see also Trunks vs Black and Zamasu. This isn't the manga, they got fight scenes to animate.
You can't just ignore parts of the story for the sake of simplifying power scaling though.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:16 am

Teamwork. Goku could single-handily beat any of them, but when they fight together they are much stronger.

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 am

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:04 am
Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:22 pm
A lot of things work better if you ignore the whole Base Goku/Vegeta beats SS3 Gotenks thing. It's not hard, Gotenks is worth about as much to the series as Yamcha nowadays, while Fat Buu is still supposed to be pretty strong when he can be bothered to show up.

Also, do you really consider "not being able to throw Goku out in his weakest form with a 10 on 1 numbers advantage" to be competing against him? I'm not a fan of arguing the power levels are whack just because a character doesn't get stomped, see also Trunks vs Black and Zamasu. This isn't the manga, they got fight scenes to animate.
You can't just ignore parts of the story for the sake of simplifying power scaling though.
Sure you can. Toriyama did it all the time, still does.

SSJgogeto
Regular
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by SSJgogeto » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:45 am

Well, until we have some kind of explanation IMO Goku and Vegeta in the Copy Vegeta arc are using "Beyond God", and they discarded/abandoned the form later so their base forms are more or less the same of Buu saga.

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:24 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:45 am
Well, until we have some kind of explanation IMO Goku and Vegeta in the Copy Vegeta arc are using "Beyond God", and they discarded/abandoned the form later so their base forms are more or less the same of Buu saga.
It's exactly like that. In the beginning the anime was following the logic of the movies (even though they already contradicted themselves a dozen times) and then, since Toriyama changed his mind, they decided to follow the manga logic, making the whole series a mess.

Well, the series was already a mess much before they changed that (to me, it's coherence already went to shit in the Goku vs Hit fight).

Regards!

User avatar
Matches Malone
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1302
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:18 am

The writing is terrible and inconsistent. I know you probably want a more detailed answer, but everything just leads back to the lack of care put into the writing. One episode we're told something, the next we're shown the complete opposite.

dragonball0900
OMG CRAZY REG
Posts: 885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:18 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:16 am
Teamwork. Goku could single-handily beat any of them, but when they fight together they are much stronger.
Yeah, that's true. The problem is that there were moments during the fight when Goku was fighting one on one against them and they could still trade blows.

User avatar
Tai Lung
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:42 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:04 am
Kataphrut wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:22 pm
A lot of things work better if you ignore the whole Base Goku/Vegeta beats SS3 Gotenks thing. It's not hard, Gotenks is worth about as much to the series as Yamcha nowadays, while Fat Buu is still supposed to be pretty strong when he can be bothered to show up.

Also, do you really consider "not being able to throw Goku out in his weakest form with a 10 on 1 numbers advantage" to be competing against him? I'm not a fan of arguing the power levels are whack just because a character doesn't get stomped, see also Trunks vs Black and Zamasu. This isn't the manga, they got fight scenes to animate.
You can't just ignore parts of the story for the sake of simplifying power scaling though.
As the author had said, when a manga adapts to anime much of its content may change due to the fact that the stories are lengthened and part of the script is altered to coordinate with the new format, it seems to me something easy to understand since it has happened before.

all those happened on "sagas" canon

Image

Image

Image
MechaTrunks wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:24 am
SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:45 am
Well, until we have some kind of explanation IMO Goku and Vegeta in the Copy Vegeta arc are using "Beyond God", and they discarded/abandoned the form later so their base forms are more or less the same of Buu saga.
It's exactly like that. In the beginning the anime was following the logic of the movies (even though they already contradicted themselves a dozen times) and then, since Toriyama changed his mind, they decided to follow the manga logic, making the whole series a mess.

Well, the series was already a mess much before they changed that (to me, it's coherence already went to shit in the Goku vs Hit fight).

Regards!
this fight is consistent ... in the original series there have already been fights with power differences of 10 times

theherodjl
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1518
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:12 pm
Location: The Planes of Lexington

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:03 pm

I don't really see a problem with those examples, especially considering that characters can hold back in fights. No one truly believes that Goten was hitting Popo at full power or that Krillin actually hurt Cell(looks like he just winded him). Yamcha defeating Olibu can actually be a testament to how much he improved through training during the 3 year timeskip. Olibu was KO'd by a Cell Games Base Goku-tier opponent so Yamcha only requires that level to win.

Back on topic, Goku was pulling his punches at the beginning of the ToP so its pretty understandable that he could momentarily be challenged by weaker opponents.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter :think:

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:01 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:42 pm
this fight is consistent ... in the original series there have already been fights with power differences of 10 times
Never someone with a power 10x stronger than his opponent hit him and the weaker one survived.
A 10x in DB (the manga) would be an insta kill. Even a 2x was always an insta kill, and hits with 25-30% more strenght were fatal in most of the fights.
So SSJBlue Goku and Hit are reasonably close and then Goku multiplies by 10 his strength and Hit can take his punches fine just because he increases his timeskip ability?
And then Goku retires from the combat just a second before his body collapses, and for whatever reasons Hit let's Monaka win the fight because he somehow feels indebted to Goku when it's absolutely obvious that he would have won?
That's DB:GT levels of writting, no, worse, thats other world tournament filler saga bad elevels of writting.

Regards!

User avatar
Tai Lung
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1431
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:42 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:01 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:42 pm
this fight is consistent ... in the original series there have already been fights with power differences of 10 times
Never someone with a power 10x stronger than his opponent hit him and the weaker one survived.
A 10x in DB (the manga) would be an insta kill. Even a 2x was always an insta kill, and hits with 25-30% more strenght were fatal in most of the fights.
So SSJBlue Goku and Hit are reasonably close and then Goku multiplies by 10 his strength and Hit can take his punches fine just because he increases his timeskip ability?
And then Goku retires from the combat just a second before his body collapses, and for whatever reasons Hit let's Monaka win the fight because he somehow feels indebted to Goku when it's absolutely obvious that he would have won?
That's DB:GT levels of writting, no, worse, thats other world tournament filler saga bad elevels of writting.
omega shenron said he was 10 times stronger than goku ssj4 and still goku and vegeta were able to withstand his punches.
omega shrenon withstood gogeta's attack
Kid trunks resist a punch of super buu that is more than 400 times stronger according to official guides and
gotenks base also resisted super buu hits.
several humans withstood punches from the cell Jr.
Vegeta base resist several hits of Kid buu etc etc
Image

do you want me to continue?

PD:
hit surrendered to show Champa that he does not follow orders ... you clearly haven't seen the series try again

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 3387
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:34 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:18 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:16 am
Teamwork. Goku could single-handily beat any of them, but when they fight together they are much stronger.
Yeah, that's true. The problem is that there were moments during the fight when Goku was fighting one on one against them and they could still trade blows.
To be fair, it wasn’t exactly one on one, since he wasn't focusing particularly in one of them. He had to keep track of the other two’s movements while he fought one at a time. That’s quite difficult. With his mind being distracted, he is not as invested in just one match.

Kataphrut
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1480
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:12 pm

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:44 am

I think Herms pointed out in his retrospective rewatch of the Goku and Trunks vs Black and Zamasu fight (paraphrasing) that if you dismiss a fantastic fight sequence because Trunks isn't being one-shot, then that's more your problem than the show. That's one of many examples in Super of a fight clearly going in a certain direction, but people say is bad because the weaker party is "holding their own". But what does that mean anyway? Did you really believe at any point in that fight that Trunks could win? Then why is it a problem?

There are ways to illustrate characters being at a disadvantage without falling back on the old tropes like "villain walking unfazed through the dust cloud".

The same applies to Goku vs the Trio. There are actually multiple fights in the ToP, such as against the robots, the magical lads, and Caulifla and Kale where it's explicitly stated that Goku is only struggling because he's outnumbered. Teamwork was a big factor in that particular arc.

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:14 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:42 pm
Kid trunks resist a punch of super buu that is more than 400 times stronger according to official guides and
gotenks base also resisted super buu hits.
several humans withstood punches from the cell Jr.
Vegeta base resist several hits of Kid buu etc etc
Image

do you want me to continue?

PD:
hit surrendered to show Champa that he does not follow orders ... you clearly haven't seen the series try again
We're talking of punches meant to kill your oponent, not punches clearly delibered with a fraction of his power. If someone 3 times stronger punches you with 1/3 of his strength, he won't kill you.
Bu always played with his victims (unless he was enraged), in the same way the Cell Jr. played with their opponents (even Cell tells him to stop playing and start killing just to tease Gohan).

I mean, in that image you're putting of Vegeta "resisting" Kid Bu's attack, everyone can see that Kid Bu takes Vegeta as a joke.

We're speaking of hits delivered at max power, not when the strongest fighter adapted his strength to not kill his opponent. Goku wasn't holding back when he used the KKx10 against Hit, and Hit took those hits and resisted them.

PD: Hit wanted that magic cube box and no, he doesn't surrender to defy Champa (bad excuse boy, very bad excuse) but to return Goku a "favour" Goku never made him becasuse of how bad the writters at Toei animation were.
Heck, Hit's whole attitude towards Goku is an incoherent mess in the anime.

Post Reply