How were the Trio of Danger able to compete against Base Goku in the ToP?

[Tai Lung]

Kid trunks resist a punch of super buu that is more than 400 times stronger according to official guides and
gotenks base also resisted super buu hits.
several humans withstood punches from the cell Jr.
Vegeta base resist several hits of Kid buu etc etc


do you want me to continue?

PD:
hit surrendered to show Champa that he does not follow orders ... you clearly haven't seen the series try again

We're talking of punches meant to kill your oponent, not punches clearly delibered with a fraction of his power. If someone 3 times stronger punches you with 1/3 of his strength, he won't kill you.
Bu always played with his victims (unless he was enraged), in the same way the Cell Jr. played with their opponents (even Cell tells him to stop playing and start killing just to tease Gohan).

I mean, in that image you're putting of Vegeta "resisting" Kid Bu's attack, everyone can see that Kid Bu takes Vegeta as a joke.

We're speaking of hits delivered at max power, not when the strongest fighter adapted his strength to not kill his opponent. Goku wasn't holding back when he used the KKx10 against Hit, and Hit took those hits and resisted them.

PD: Hit wanted that magic cube box and no, he doesn't surrender to defy Champa (bad excuse boy, very bad excuse) but to return Goku a "favour" Goku never made him becasuse of how bad the writters at Toei animation were.
Heck, Hit's whole attitude towards Goku is an incoherent mess in the anime.

You are telling me that goku is going to kill in a tournament where they cannot kill ... and villains who are willing to kill will not do it ... also kid buu is one of the least thinking characters to contain himself, that's why they were on the planet kaioshin, that excuse no sense

hat's a lie before hit surrendered, champa mocks saying that mortals are only toys of the gods, making hit and goku angry basically it's because of his pride that he decides to surrender in this case ... it was also thanks to goku that he was able to grow as a warrior and since he had surrendered he had already lost interest in the cube and makes sense with his personality

[Polyphase Avatron]

We're talking of punches meant to kill your oponent, not punches clearly delibered with a fraction of his power.

I thought we were talking about the Tournament of Power, where killing your opponent would get you disqualified.

[MechaTrunks]

You are telling me that goku is going to kill in a tournament where they cannot kill ... and villains who are willing to kill will not do it ... also kid buu is one of the least thinking characters to contain himself, that's why they were on the planet kaioshin, that excuse no sense

What I'm telling you is that a 10x punch should have completely killed Hit (that was at the same level as the SSJBlue in terms of strenght but had the upperhand becaues of the timeskip -in the anime, that is-), and that in all DBZ when a serious punch (with the intent to kill) was thrown at 1.5x - 2x the difference of strenght it already was a fatal blow.
So for that scene to make any sense:
1. Goku should have used the KKx2.
2. The fight should have ended in a single blow, with Hit being koed while Goku still restraining.

Regarding Bu, he pulled his punches in every single of his fights against weaker oponents, because he enjoyed making his victims suffer.
I mean, if that wasn't obvious enough, we have mr. Satan surviving one of his punches, we have kid Trunks and etc. etc. of obvious examples where he pulled the strength of his punches.

hat's a lie before hit surrendered, champa mocks saying that mortals are only toys of the gods, making hit and goku angry basically it's because of his pride that he decides to surrender in this case ... it was also thanks to goku that he was able to grow as a warrior and since he had surrendered he had already lost interest in the cube and makes sense with his personality

Oks, I can buy that. Let's just say that anime-Hit is much more of a sentimental guy than his manga version.

I thought we were talking about the Tournament of Power, where killing your opponent would get you disqualified.

We were talking about the U7 vs U6 tournament saga, not the TOP, but killing was also forbidden I think.
It doesn't matter, Hit tanked 10x serious hits from Goku without losing energy nor getting badly injured, Dragon Ball fights in toei's products where Toriyama is not directly involved are like One Piece fights but with Goku instead of Luffy.

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

What I'm telling you is that a 10x punch should have completely killed Hit (that was at the same level as the SSJBlue in terms of strenght but had the upperhand becaues of the timeskip -in the anime, that is-), and that in all DBZ when a serious punch (with the intent to kill) was thrown at 1.5x - 2x the difference of strenght it already was a fatal blow.
So for that scene to make any sense:
1. Goku should have used the KKx2.
2. The fight should have ended in a single blow, with Hit being koed while Goku still restraining.

Regarding Bu, he pulled his punches in every single of his fights against weaker oponents, because he enjoyed making his victims suffer.
I mean, if that wasn't obvious enough, we have mr. Satan surviving one of his punches, we have kid Trunks and etc. etc. of obvious examples where he pulled the strength of his punches.[/quote]

that doesn't always work like that .. a lot depends also on the resistance of the opponent vegeta vs goku kkx4
goku endures attacks by ozaru vegeta. 10 times stronger.
tired vegeta withstands gohan ozaru's attacks. 10 times stronger.

I think panel when mr satan dodging and holding buu punches is "gag comic" otherwise it would be a huge inconsistency again

Shin describes Kid buu as the least thinking stage of buu and he only thinks about destroying.

for that reason he destroyed the earth and then they decided that the fight would be on the planet kaioshin that was able to withstand their attacks

Oks, I can buy that. Let's just say that anime-Hit is much more of a sentimental guy than his manga version.

in the manga version he also gave up

[MechaTrunks]

that doesn't always work like that .. a lot depends also on the resistance of the opponent vegeta vs goku kkx4

Goku barely managed to match Vegeta's strength with the KKx3, and the KKx4 almost immediatly depleted all his strength. He could overcome Vegeta's attack, but not sustain that strength enough to damage him.

goku endures attacks by ozaru vegeta. 10 times stronger.

Come on, Oozaru Vegeta is clearly not killing Goku on purpose. He even makes a joke when he breaks his bones likee nothing.

tired vegeta withstands gohan ozaru's attacks. 10 times stronger.

Not in the manga. In the manga Gohan only hits him while in the middle of transforming and while Vegeta was grabbing his tail (further weakening him) and even then he managed to damage him.
Then Vegeta cut his tail with the kienzan. and only the weight of Gohan falling over him left him copletely depleted of the small strength he still conserved.

I think panel when mr satan dodging and holding buu punches is "gag comic" otherwise it would be a huge inconsistency again

It was part gag, part justified because mr. Bo still was inside kid Bu's body even if he wasn't absorbed, but afterwards kid bu (without Mr Bu inside him) punches Satan without killing him.
And also after that, when Mr Bo is starting to lose, Satan tries to help him and Kid Bu tosses him out with a hit of his head tail. All in all, it's pretty obious that Bu didn't go for the kill in most of the occasions becuase he enjoyed playing with his victims.
With base Vegeta, he was clearly not going all out either.

Shin describes Kid buu as the least thinking stage of buu and he only thinks about destroying.

Making his victims suffer is part of being pure evil. In fact, Bu should've rushed to attack Goku before he could gather the Genkidama, but he got easily distracted by Vegeta and started to "play" with him because he only thinks about doing evil.

for that reason he destroyed the earth and then they decided that the fight would be on the planet kaioshin that was able to withstand their attacks

Bu destroyed the earth because he was angry at that point (he had lost all his absorptions just a moment ago).
They comented that the KaiohShin planet would be sturdy enough, but not because Bu was incontrollable but simply because the power of two SSJ3 fighting could already destroy the earth (something that Super has had to retconn for obvious purposes).

in the manga version he also gave up

But in the manga SSJBlue Goku was clearly superior. Goku retired and then Hit, feeling his victory was unearned decided to return him the favour.
In the anime Hit was so moved by Goku forcing him to give everything that he not only accepts without saying anything Goku's retirement just a second before his body collapses but losing against Monaka as well.
I can accept it (because I still feel forced that an assassin like Hit has the personality he was given), but the motivations Hit had to do what he did are better in the manga.

Regards-

[Tai Lung]

Goku barely managed to match Vegeta's strength with the KKx3, and the KKx4 almost immediatly depleted all his strength. He could overcome Vegeta's attack, but not sustain that strength enough to damage him.

lol maths ...
Goku KKx4 VS Vegeta
32000 >18000

Kiwi/Cui VS Vegeta
18000<24000

no, they are not simple the characters can have different resistance

Come on, Oozaru Vegeta is clearly not killing Goku on purpose. He even makes a joke when he breaks his bones likee nothing.

vegeta barely knows how to control ki like that ... she learned that in namek

Not in the manga. In the manga Gohan only hits him while in the middle of transforming and while Vegeta was grabbing his tail (further weakening him) and even then he managed to damage him.
Then Vegeta cut his tail with the kienzan. and only the weight of Gohan falling over him left him copletely depleted of the small strength he still conserved..

that doesn't change at all ... because gohan didn't lose control of his movement like goku did

It was part gag, part justified because mr. Bo still was inside kid Bu's body even if he wasn't absorbed, but afterwards kid bu (without Mr Bu inside him) punches Satan without killing him.
And also after that, when Mr Bo is starting to lose, Satan tries to help him and Kid Bu tosses him out with a hit of his head tail. All in all, it's pretty obious that Bu didn't go for the kill in most of the occasions becuase he enjoyed playing with his victims.
With base Vegeta, he was clearly not going all out either.
Making his victims suffer is part of being pure evil. In fact, Bu should've rushed to attack Goku before he could gather the Genkidama, but he got easily distracted by Vegeta and started to "play" with him because he only thinks about doing evil
Bu destroyed the earth because he was angry at that point (he had lost all his absorptions just a moment ago).
They comented that the KaiohShin planet would be sturdy enough, but not because Bu was incontrollable but simply because the power of two SSJ3 fighting could already destroy the earth (something that Super has had to retconn for obvious purposes
.

mr buu can control himself but there is no proof that kid buu does it, nothing, that does not deny what I am saying because he likes to play with his opponent does not mean that he knows how to control himself he had previously destroyed the planet earth
you know it's funny that gotenks didn't destroy the earth when he directly attacked it

But in the manga SSJBlue Goku was clearly superior. Goku retired and then Hit, feeling his victory was unearned decided to return him the favour.
In the anime Hit was so moved by Goku forcing him to give everything that he not only accepts without saying anything Goku's retirement just a second before his body collapses but losing against Monaka as well.
I can accept it (because I still feel forced that an assassin like Hit has the personality he was given), but the motivations Hit had to do what he did are better in the manga.

again false ... because it is basically the same goku SSBKK was superior to hit in power and was only saved from the attack by his skill

[MechaTrunks]

lol maths ...
Goku KKx4 VS Vegeta
32000 >18000

Kiwi/Cui VS Vegeta
18000<24000

Sorry but this comparison is VERY wrong. Goku would've had 32.000 units of strength ONLY IF he had activated the KKx4 when he started to fight Vegeta and was still fresh.
When he actually activated, he had already taken damage from Vegeta, taken even more damage from the KKx3, and even more energy after a second activation of the KKx3.
To say that Goku KKx4 was 32.000 is like saying that Krilin was 20.000 just because he could've killed Vegeta in the end of the fight: yes, Krillin could've killed him, but that was because Vegeta wasn't even able to stand up by himself.

no, they are not simple the characters can have different resistance

Of course it isn't, it's just that the difference between Goku's KKx4 and Vegeta was much, much lower than the difference between Kiwi and Vegeta.
Goku didn't use the KKx4 at the beginning of the fight, he had already lost a ton of energy before activating it and the KKx4 itself destroyed his body even more in just an instant.

vegeta barely knows how to control ki like that ... she learned that in namek.

No real life human being can control his Ki but that doesn't mean that we can't pull back the power of our blows/hits, which is what happened.
Everyone in DB can decide if they punch with all their strength or not, it's not a matter of mastering one's ki to be able to do that.

Not in the manga. In the manga Gohan only hits him while in the middle of transforming and while Vegeta was grabbing his tail (further weakening him) and even then he managed to damage him.
Then Vegeta cut his tail with the kienzan. and only the weight of Gohan falling over him left him copletely depleted of the small strength he still conserved..

that doesn't change at all ... because gohan didn't lose control of his movement like goku did

Look you want to use the 10x multiplier when Gohan's transformation wasn't even ended and Vegeta grabbed him by the tail furthering weakining him when we know that an untraned tail completely weakens the saiyan once grabbed.
Gohan losing or not the control of his actions doesn't change any of those facts (and Gohan lost control of himself, it's just that Goku managed to direct his fury against Vegeta).

mr buu can control himself but there is no proof that kid buu does it, nothing, that does not deny what I am saying because he likes to play with his opponent does not mean that he knows how to control himself he had previously destroyed the planet earth

Look, you're doing this backwards. The proof that Kid Buu can control himself is mr Satan surviving 2 hits from him and Base Vegeta survinving a beating, while we already know that Kid Bu can go as far as SSJ3 levels of power.
You have the evidence just in front of your eyes, but you don't want to accept it becasue it doesn't fit your narrative.

again false ... because it is basically the same goku SSBKK was superior to hit in power and was only saved from the attack by his skill

Wow, this is reaching absurd levels of logic spinning. If Hit was "saved" by his skill, it's still his skill and it's still him who wins the battle.
In the manga Hit was surpassed by Goku, in the anime HIT would've always won that fight because he managed to match Goku and Goku could only fight at that level for seconds.

Regards!

[Thunderbird]

Because of awful writing.

This is the same show that has the equivalent of Base Vegeta not budging from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks attacks but then Base Goku tangles with Base Gohan and Roshi.

[Tai Lung]

Sorry but this comparison is VERY wrong. Goku would've had 32.000 units of strength ONLY IF he had activated the KKx4 when he started to fight Vegeta and was still fresh.
When he actually activated, he had already taken damage from Vegeta, taken even more damage from the KKx3, and even more energy after a second activation of the KKx3.
To say that Goku KKx4 was 32.000 is like saying that Krilin was 20.000 just because he could've killed Vegeta in the end of the fight: yes, Krillin could've killed him, but that was because Vegeta wasn't even able to stand up by himself.
Of course it isn't, it's just that the difference between Goku's KKx4 and Vegeta was much, much lower than the difference between Kiwi and Vegeta.
Goku didn't use the KKx4 at the beginning of the fight, he had already lost a ton of energy before activating it and the KKx4 itself destroyed his body even more in just an instant.

lol that's just your speculation because you have no proof of how much wear and tear goku suffered, before the fight he defeated nappa easily and later with vegeta it didn't take long to use the kaioken, wear only begins to show after using the kamehameha
also I could use your own argument against you .. since goku suffered more wear fighting against botamo, frost and then with hit where he received a lot of punishment using kaiokenx10 is a greater wear and then he fall exhausted the ground

vegeta barely knows how to control ki like that ... she learned that in namek.

No real life human being can control his Ki but that doesn't mean that we can't pull back the power of our blows/hits, which is what happened.
Everyone in DB can decide if they punch with all their strength or not, it's not a matter of mastering one's ki to be able to do that.[/quote]

They can't if they don't learn it ...
they have to use scouter for a reason
for a reason, raditz is so surprised to know that they can raise their power at will and incidentally raditz being 3 times stronger did not kill piccolo and goku with the punch

Look you want to use the 10x multiplier when Gohan's transformation wasn't even ended and Vegeta grabbed him by the tail furthering weakining him when we know that an untraned tail completely weakens the saiyan once grabbed.
Gohan losing or not the control of his actions doesn't change any of those facts (and Gohan lost control of himself, it's just that Goku managed to direct his fury against Vegeta).

grabbing the tail would imply that gohan could not move at all but gohan could counterattack in that instant and you have no proof that gohan didn't have that power since vegeta starts hitting him earlier and does nothing to him

Look, you're doing this backwards. The proof that Kid Buu can control himself is mr Satan surviving 2 hits from him and Base Vegeta survinving a beating, while we already know that Kid Bu can go as far as SSJ3 levels of power.
You have the evidence just in front of your eyes, but you don't want to accept it becasue it doesn't fit your narrative..

no that's what you do .. since those excuses are denied by the same manga , that are words of shin not mine, you can't use a comic gag as an argument because mr satan holding punches doesn't make sense

Wow, this is reaching absurd levels of logic spinning. If Hit was "saved" by his skill, it's still his skill and it's still him who wins the battle.
In the manga Hit was surpassed by Goku, in the anime HIT would've always won that fight because he managed to match Goku and Goku could only fight at that level for seconds.

He was saved by not taking the last blow ... that does not guarantee that he could do it again because the fight fight reaches a point where both are exhausted on the ground

This is the same show that has the equivalent of Base Vegeta not budging from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks attacks but then Base Goku tangles with Base Gohan and Roshi.

filler ...

[DragonBallFoodie]

I simply felt that the Trio were technically the best their Universe could offer.

[MechaTrunks]

lol that's just your speculation because you have no proof of how much wear and tear goku suffered, before the fight he defeated nappa easily and later with vegeta it didn't take long to use the kaioken, wear only begins to show after using the kamehameha
also I could use your own argument against you .. since goku suffered more wear fighting against botamo, frost and then with hit where he received a lot of punishment using kaiokenx10 is a greater wear and then he fall exhausted the ground

It doesn't matter "how much", the thing is that it is your 32.000 number the one that makes absolutely no sense because it would require Goku to be at his 100% which clearly was NOT the case.
Bad example the KKx4 Goku, and an example that demonstrates that you didn't understand the original manga.
Regarding the KKx10 thing, to say that Goku received punishment in his fight against Botamo but at the same time arguing that he didn't receive any punishment in his fight against Vegeta seems a joke.

They can't if they don't learn it ...

You don't have to learn to pull the strength of your punches, even a little kid can do that. Raditz did it and Vegeta did it as well in the earth (Stated by himself) so stop contradicting the manga.

for a reason, raditz is so surprised to know that they can raise their power at will and incidentally raditz being 3 times stronger did not kill piccolo and goku with the punch

In chapter 199 of the manga, Raditz literally says: "I'll play with you for a bit, I'll slowly increase the strength of my attacks".
So it's your word saying that Raditz can't even control the strength of his punches against what Raditz says in the manga (like in most of all your stances, it's you against the manga).

grabbing the tail would imply that gohan could not move at all but gohan could counterattack in that instant and you have no proof that gohan didn't have that power since vegeta starts hitting him earlier and does nothing to him

It's incredible how you can make rules out of completely self-made assumptions in the same way you disregard anything from the manga that doesn't fit your narrative.
You have absolutely no idea if Gohan could or couldn't move because we've never seen the tail of an Ozaru being grabed (not cut) while transforming.
In the manga it's obvious that Gohan feels it but he still can move, accept it, it's what's drawn.

since those excuses are denied by the same manga , that are words of shin not mine, you can't use a comic gag as an argument because mr satan holding punches doesn't make sense

It's not a gag when Satan tries to help Mr. Bu and Kid Bu toses him out.
And even if it was a gag (which it wasn't) in DB all the gags were coherent with the in-universe logic of the series.

The only thing that doesn't make sense here it's you contradicting the manga just because it doesn't fit your narrative. Kid Bu played with satan, Kid Bu could control the strength of his hits and Kid Bu did what he did againt most other fighters (play with them).
Stop saying that the manga is wrong everytime you disagree with what happens in it.

He was saved by not taking the last blow ... that does not guarantee that he could do it again because the fight fight reaches a point where both are exhausted on the ground

Yeah, right, so now besides contradicting the manga you decide to contradict the anime as well.
So according to you Hit was even more tired than SSJB Goku after doing the KKx10, right?
Why don't you write your own fanfiction where those things actually happen?

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

It doesn't matter "how much", the thing is that it is your 32.000 number the one that makes absolutely no sense because it would require Goku to be at his 100% which clearly was NOT the case.
Bad example the KKx4 Goku, and an example that demonstrates that you didn't understand the original manga.
Regarding the KKx10 thing, to say that Goku received punishment in his fight against Botamo but at the same time arguing that he didn't receive any punishment in his fight against Vegeta seems a joke.

it is the calculation that gives which is a fact ... it is speculative to say that the wear is significant in the comparison as you want to argue and since goku did not take long to use his technique it is very unlikely
conveniently you don't include to frost with his poison or the hit fight in the comparison that are more battles and more fatigue

You don't have to learn to pull the strength of your punches, even a little kid can do that. Raditz did it and Vegeta did it as well in the earth (Stated by himself) so stop contradicting the manga..

In chapter 199 of the manga, Raditz literally says: "I'll play with you for a bit, I'll slowly increase the strength of my attacks".
So it's your word saying that Raditz can't even control the strength of his punches against what Raditz says in the manga (like in most of all your stances, it's you against the manga).[/quote]

no, you speculates ... anyone can hold back but only someone who has advanced ki control can reduce their power triple or quadruple for something they trusted so much on scouters

first raditz says he is determined to kill them so there is little point in holding back

To make matters worse ... Raditz says he is going to fight seriously


Raditz surprised that they can manipulate his power at that level ... which makes it quite clear that he cannot do that.




"it's you against the manga"

It's incredible how you can make rules out of completely self-made assumptions in the same way you disregard anything from the manga that doesn't fit your narrative.
You have absolutely no idea if Gohan could or couldn't move because we've never seen the tail of an Ozaru being grabed (not cut) while transforming.
In the manga it's obvious that Gohan feels it but he still can move, accept it, it's what's drawn..

"It's incredible how you can make rules out of completely self-made assumptions in the same way you disregard anything from the manga that doesn't fit your narrative."
that's what you do ...

in the manga, goku remains immobile when they hold his tail and How it changes some, that newly transformed if the weakness continues as humanoid or oozaru
the only thing that can be consistent is that vegeta was not strong enough to hold his tail

It's not a gag when Satan tries to help Mr. Bu and Kid Bu toses him out.
And even if it was a gag (which it wasn't) in DB all the gags were coherent with the in-universe logic of the series.

how to send a rabbit to the moon o Mr satan thrown towards a rock several meters high

The only thing that doesn't make sense here it's you contradicting the manga just because it doesn't fit your narrative. Kid Bu played with satan, Kid Bu could control the strength of his hits and Kid Bu did what he did againt most other fighters (play with them).
Stop saying that the manga is wrong everytime you disagree with what happens in it.

lol it's like I told you not to complain because you are not right ...
I repeat, you have no evidence or proof of what you claim is debatable with characters like super buu or mr buu but kid buu was described as a non-thinking being dedicated to sowing destruction in the universe.
when he appeared he was not interested in playing with goku or vegeta just destroying the earth and for some reason they decided to fight on that planet kaioshin because buu had problems controlling himself.
I do not invent anything ... everything is in the manga
your only argument is Mr satan which is really a joke to use it as an argument

Yeah, right, so now besides contradicting the manga you decide to contradict the anime as well.
So according to you Hit was even more tired than SSJB Goku after doing the KKx10, right?
Why don't you write your own fanfiction where those things actually happen?

the fight would have ended in a draw in the anime because hit was not going to hold any more either

lol follow your own advice because none of your excuses is true

[MechaTrunks]

it is the calculation that gives which is a fact ... it is speculative to say that the wear is significant in the comparison as you want to argue and since goku did not take long to use his technique it is very unlikely
conveniently you don't include to frost with his poison or the hit fight in the comparison that are more battles and more fatigue

The KKx3 was stated to destroy Goku's body, that is a fact.
Your calculation would be a fact if Goku had still 8000+ power, in which case his KKx4 would've had 32,000 of power in which case it still would be < 2x the power of Vegeta which is VEEEEERY far from Hit tanking 10x SSJB Goku blows when SSJB Goku was already at the same level than Hit.

no, you speculates ... anyone can hold back but only someone who has advanced ki control can reduce their power triple or quadruple for something they trusted so much on scouters

first raditz says he is determined to kill them so there is little point in holding back

To make matters worse ... Raditz says he is going to fight seriously


Raditz surprised that they can manipulate his power at that level ... which makes it quite clear that he cannot do that.
[more images]

"it's you against the manga"

That's not a good translation on what's said in that battle (at least not if you take it as Raditz going all out), this is the more accurate translation given in this page:
Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”
Piccolo: “To think that our levels would be so different…!
Raditz: “The other two Saiyan survivors besides me…Have battle powers higher than mine.”

In other words, Raditz was pulling back the strength of his punches to not kill Goku and Piccolo on the spot (something the baddies in DB enjoyed a lot to do).
He is not controlling his Ki, but come on, are you telling me that you wouldn't be able to play with a little kid without harming him? You can't move your arm at 1/10th it's maximum speed? Are you telling me Raditz couldn't do something anyone can do?
Look, he says it directly. He's starting with weak attacks and he is doing it on purpose!

Maybe the problem is in the translation you use to read the source material!

"It's incredible how you can make rules out of completely self-made assumptions in the same way you disregard anything from the manga that doesn't fit your narrative."
that's what you do ...

in the manga, goku remains immobile when they hold his tail and How it changes some, that newly transformed if the weakness continues as humanoid or oozaru
the only thing that can be consistent is that vegeta was not strong enough to hold his tail

Are you seriously arguing that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan by his tail when Gohan hit him, when it's absolutely drawn in the manga, just because when Goku was grabbed by the tail he couldn't move?
I mean, think about it for a second.


After seeing this images, you're telling me that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan by his tail when he was hit, and that Gohan at that point already had the 10x boost of the Oozaru form?
I mean, firstly, the fact that Goku couldn't even move AFTER having transformed should indicate that Gohan's hit couldn't be very strong.
Secondly, you can't say that what happened in the manga didn't happen just because in a different occasion, a different character reacted differently.

how to send a rabbit to the moon o Mr satan thrown towards a rock several meters high

1. A human in DB surviving a various meters high fall is not unseen. Satan could do it.
2. When Satan survived Cell's attack, IT WAS EXPLICITLY STATED that Cell didn't kill him on purpose. In other words, thanks for giving me an example that even when making a gag, Toriyama also respected the power levels.

lol it's like I told you not to complain because you are not right ...
I repeat, you have no evidence or proof of what you claim is debatable with characters like super buu or mr buu but kid buu was described as a non-thinking being dedicated to sowing destruction in the universe.
when he appeared he was not interested in playing with goku or vegeta just destroying the earth and for some reason they decided to fight on that planet kaioshin because buu had problems controlling himself.
I do not invent anything ... everything is in the manga
your only argument is Mr satan which is really a joke to use it as an argument

You're doing the same than when you argued that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan's tail even when it's clearly drawn.
You are arguing that Kid Bu didn't control the strength of his hits, even when:
1. He doesn't 1-hit kill base Vegeta despite the huge difference of strength, and he starts beating him wihtout killing him.
2. He doesn't 1-hit kill Satan TWICE. Satan, that was a regular human being. TWICE.

Kid Bu enjoyed more than any other Bu in torturing his victims. He FORGOT ABOUT THE GENKIDAMA because he started to play with Vegeta. That's the vey definition of being an unthinking being, dedicated to evil and destruction:
He priroritized having fun torturing Vegeta than his own self-being.

Kid Bu fights against Goku, Vegeta, Mr Boo & Satan. Of 4 fights he had, he clearly pulled back the strength of his attacks in 3 of them or are you telling me that Kid Bu beating Vegeta was also a gag?
Or when he tortured Mr. Boo instead of dealing the fatal blow?
Everything is a gag?

the fight would have ended in a draw in the anime because hit was not going to hold any more either

lol follow your own advice because none of your excuses is true

When is that screengrab from, and are you aware that Goku's body already started to collapse before he retired and that he completely collapsed just a second after the fact?
Hit may had been tired, but nothing compared to what Goku was going through.

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

The KKx3 was stated to destroy Goku's body, that is a fact.

I have not denied it I'm just saying we don't know how much wear and tear it suffered

Your calculation would be a fact if Goku had still 8000+ power, in which case his KKx4 would've had 32,000 of power in which case it still would be < 2x the power of Vegeta which is VEEEEERY far from Hit tanking 10x SSJB Goku blows when SSJB Goku was already at the same level than Hit.

Well that if we are considering wear is a factor ... goku against hit suffered more wear 2 previous fights, poisoned, the fight with hit, The KKx10 was stated to destroy Goku's body and SSB generates more wear etc
otherwise it would only demonstrate that the characters can have different resistance without being strictly linked to power.

That's not a good translation on what's said in that battle (at least not if you take it as Raditz going all out), this is the more accurate translation given in this page:
Chapter: 199 (DBZ 5), P14.1-5
Raditz: “But it’s just a matter of time before you die…I’ll be slowly making my attacks stronger.”
Piccolo: “To think that our levels would be so different…!
Raditz: “The other two Saiyan survivors besides me…Have battle powers higher than mine.”

In other words, Raditz was pulling back the strength of his punches to not kill Goku and Piccolo on the spot (something the baddies in DB enjoyed a lot to do).
He is not controlling his Ki, but come on, are you telling me that you wouldn't be able to play with a little kid without harming him? You can't move your arm at 1/10th it's maximum speed? Are you telling me Raditz couldn't do something anyone can do?
Look, he says it directly. He's starting with weak attacks and he is doing it on purpose!

Maybe the problem is in the translation you use to read the source material!

First, since I did it, it would be good if you showed the manga with the translation you mentioned, although well, that would not prove anything, since I would have a translation and your other translation. ..
because frieza soldiers have been shown to be unaware of this ... that's why they trust scouters so much

Radiitz shows surprise and disbelief when he sees that goku and piccolo increase and decrease their power at will, making it clear that they cannot do that.
in the scene of "punching machine" 18 said that it is difficult to decrease her power also they all had problems despite having advanced ki control someone who does not know could not
another example is that the DB OG characters are defeating other warriors with "touch" when they couldn't contain themselves and lacked training Kid goku vs Pamput

Are you seriously arguing that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan by his tail when Gohan hit him, when it's absolutely drawn in the manga, just because when Goku was grabbed by the tail he couldn't move?
I mean, think about it for a second.


After seeing this images, you're telling me that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan by his tail when he was hit, and that Gohan at that point already had the 10x boost of the Oozaru form?
I mean, firstly, the fact that Goku couldn't even move AFTER having transformed should indicate that Gohan's hit couldn't be very strong.
Secondly, you can't say that what happened in the manga didn't happen just because in a different occasion, a different character reacted differently.

is that it is not something unique to goku
if they firmly hold the tail of a saiyan it loses all its strength and is unable to move, another example is raditz
but anyway let's say gohan if he can for being hybrid although this has never been said

1. A human in DB surviving a various meters high fall is not unseen. Satan could do it.
2. When Satan survived Cell's attack, IT WAS EXPLICITLY STATED that Cell didn't kill him on purpose. In other words, thanks for giving me an example that even when making a gag, Toriyama also respected the power levels..

which is false because mr satan is an average human Z who couldn't even beat kid goku from the chapter much less compare to the humans goku fight
being thrown into a rock wall must have killed or left him with several broken bones

You're doing the same than when you argued that Vegeta wasn't grabbing Gohan's tail even when it's clearly drawn.
You are arguing that Kid Bu didn't control the strength of his hits, even when:
1. He doesn't 1-hit kill base Vegeta despite the huge difference of strength, and he starts beating him wihtout killing him.
2. He doesn't 1-hit kill Satan TWICE. Satan, that was a regular human being. TWICE.

Kid Bu enjoyed more than any other Bu in torturing his victims. He FORGOT ABOUT THE GENKIDAMA because he started to play with Vegeta. That's the vey definition of being an unthinking being, dedicated to evil and destruction:
He priroritized having fun torturing Vegeta than his own self-being.

Kid Bu fights against Goku, Vegeta, Mr Boo & Satan. Of 4 fights he had, he clearly pulled back the strength of his attacks in 3 of them or are you telling me that Kid Bu beating Vegeta was also a gag?
Or when he tortured Mr. Boo instead of dealing the fatal blow?
Everything is a gag?

mr satan is gag no matter what it was 2 times because they were humorous
mr buu is stronger than vegeta and can regenerate so ... and for that reason he kept kid buu distracted
kid buu was bored by vegeta ssj2 .. at the beginning with a blow, he was knocked out ... that only shows that the guy doesn't know how to control himself

When is that screengrab from, and are you aware that Goku's body already started to collapse before he retired and that he completely collapsed just a second after the fact?
Hit may had been tired, but nothing compared to what Goku was going through.

Regards!

if goku continued he would collapse later I agree .. but there was guarantee that hit withstand another hit in context was more ´powerful than him
hit managed to improve his ability but his blows do not generate more damage than he was receiving something else would have been with his assassin skills

[MechaTrunks]

I have not denied it I'm just saying we don't know how much wear and tear it suffered

But we know that he lost more energy (proportionally speaking) than Vegeta while taking the beating from Goku (in other words, the KKx3 damaged Goku more than Goku could damage Vegeta while using it), that's why he needs the KKx4 to surpass him the next time they fight.
In other words, we may not know the exact quantity of energy that Goku lost, but we know it was not negligible.

Well that if we are considering wear is a factor ... goku against hit suffered more wear 2 previous fights, poisoned, the fight with hit, The KKx10 was stated to destroy Goku's body and SSB generates more wear etc
otherwise it would only demonstrate that the characters can have different resistance without being strictly linked to power.

Not a bad reasoning but the problem for the KKx10 still stands the same regardless of the wear Goku had endured prior to Hit's fight.
The thing is, SSJB Goku is matched with Hit in strength when he activates the KKx10. So the KKx10 activation had to grant him a net 10x increase of power over Hit, thus making Hit survive -or not get KOed- in the first hit already contradicts Toriyama's whole work.

First, since I did it, it would be good if you showed the manga with the translation you mentioned, although well, that would not prove anything, since I would have a translation and your other translation. ..

I'm using the translation provided in this forum in the Strength Checker section, which besides being made by someone proficient in the language, has the advantage that was specifically focused on being accurate.
I also have my catalan version of the manga where he says the exact same, and in fact despite being less obvious, in your version Raditz also says he's not going all out, the only part that misses is the part when he says he will "slowly" increase the strength of his attacks.

is that it is not something unique to goku
if they firmly hold the tail of a saiyan it loses all its strength and is unable to move, another example is raditz
but anyway let's say gohan if he can for being hybrid although this has never been said

It wasn't explained, and what you say makes a lot of sense (since a lot of enfasis is put in Gohan's half-blooded nature in that part of the series), but the thing is, that punch was not something Vegeta shouldn't be able to endure.
The sole fact that Gohan managed to punch him is already extraordinary compared to what Goku and Raditz did, so that punch being very weak for an Oozaru is the most logical explanation.

which is false because mr satan is an average human Z who couldn't even beat kid goku from the chapter much less compare to the humans goku fight
being thrown into a rock wall must have killed or left him with several broken bones

Humans in Z maybe didn't endure as much as in pre-Z Dragon Ball, but they still were super humans (Satan survives a lot of falls during the bu saga that would kill any normal human) in terms of not being killed.
I mean, the punch Trunks gives to Satan at the speed he collapses against the wall, should have killed him. He instead had some bruises but not even a single broken bone.

mr satan is gag no matter what it was 2 times because they were humorous

That's not true. The only humorous scene could be the first one. In the second one Kid Bu is torturing Bu, the tone is dramatic and not humouristic and Bu simply toses him out without killing him.
And Base Vegeta what? I mean, was he also in a gag scene?

kid buu was bored by vegeta ssj2 .. at the beginning with a blow, he was knocked out ... that only shows that the guy doesn't know how to control himself

So he could knock out Vegeta SSJ2 in a single hit (not knock it out, but surely inflicting quite a lot of damage) and couldn't do the same to Base Vegeta?
Kid Bu was playing, it's obvious even by his attitude that he didn't want to immediatly kill Vegeta.

if goku continued he would collapse later I agree .. but there was guarantee that hit withstand another hit in context was more ´powerful than him
hit managed to improve his ability but his blows do not generate more damage than he was receiving something else would have been with his assassin skills

The problem is that Hit already withstood a lot of punches from KKx10 Goku, it's not as if Hit spent his ability running from Goku and Goku was getting weaker by the time (which would have been a very interesting scenario considering the abilities both characters had, but Toei and good writting are antonyms).
So 1 extra punch wouldn't have been fatal, while Goku was literally seconds ago from collapsing already.

Regards!

[Tai Lung]

But we know that he lost more energy (proportionally speaking) than Vegeta while taking the beating from Goku (in other words, the KKx3 damaged Goku more than Goku could damage Vegeta while using it), that's why he needs the KKx4 to surpass him the next time they fight.
In other words, we may not know the exact quantity of energy that Goku lost, but we know it was not negligible.

Ok

Not a bad reasoning but the problem for the KKx10 still stands the same regardless of the wear Goku had endured prior to Hit's fight.
The thing is, SSJB Goku is matched with Hit in strength when he activates the KKx10. So the KKx10 activation had to grant him a net 10x increase of power over Hit, thus making Hit survive -or not get KOed- in the first hit already contradicts Toriyama's whole work..

not really because in anime and manga hit increased its power, he explains that he does not use transformations he only improves himself in combat, he does not have to go against logic when they are different concepts

I'm using the translation provided in this forum in the Strength Checker section, which besides being made by someone proficient in the language, has the advantage that was specifically focused on being accurate.
I also have my catalan version of the manga where he says the exact same, and in fact despite being less obvious, in your version Raditz also says he's not going all out, the only part that misses is the part when he says he will "slowly" increase the strength of his attacks..

that doesn't mean that can't have mistakes
another translation


anyway even if that's correct it doesn't change the context raditz planned to kill them in one attack

It wasn't explained, and what you say makes a lot of sense (since a lot of enfasis is put in Gohan's half-blooded nature in that part of the series), but the thing is, that punch was not something Vegeta shouldn't be able to endure.
The sole fact that Gohan managed to punch him is already extraordinary compared to what Goku and Raditz did, so that punch being very weak for an Oozaru is the most logical explanation.

ok .. but you're assuming it and we also don't know if gohan keeps his power or not

Humans in Z maybe didn't endure as much as in pre-Z Dragon Ball, but they still were super humans (Satan survives a lot of falls during the bu saga that would kill any normal human) in terms of not being killed.
I mean, the punch Trunks gives to Satan at the speed he collapses against the wall, should have killed him. He instead had some bruises but not even a single broken bone.

That's not true. The only humorous scene could be the first one. In the second one Kid Bu is torturing Bu, the tone is dramatic and not humouristic and Bu simply toses him out without killing him.
And Base Vegeta what? I mean, was he also in a gag scene?

So he could knock out Vegeta SSJ2 in a single hit (not knock it out, but surely inflicting quite a lot of damage) and couldn't do the same to Base Vegeta?
Kid Bu was playing, it's obvious even by his attitude that he didn't want to immediatly kill Vegeta.
.

trunks punch >>>> spopovich beating
videl> Mr satan

his daughter is stronger than him yet she supports less than him
not only the scenes with Mr satan are humorous
fat buu has regenerate his gum body allows that.
vegeta base is proof that warriors can take hits from opponents more than 10 times stronger

that vegeta endures beatings is proof of its resistance but not that kid buu is intelligent, it is not. of all the forms of buu is the one that has the least reasoning and that has been demonstrated when he destroy the planet when it appeared, even assuming that it started to play with vegeta you have no proof that it uses a minimum percentage of its power is more a resource of the plot so that vegeta does not die as goku ssj could return the attack to kid buu despite the difference in power

The problem is that Hit already withstood a lot of punches from KKx10 Goku, it's not as if Hit spent his ability running from Goku and Goku was getting weaker by the time (which would have been a very interesting scenario considering the abilities both characters had, but Toei and good writting are antonyms).
So 1 extra punch wouldn't have been fatal, while Goku was literally seconds ago from collapsing already.

Regards!

minutes before the kaioken, hit increases his power and the range of his ability allowing him to withstand the attacks of goku but that does not mean that he can to do it always, he was physically disadvantaged and besides that goku almost took him off the platform moments before

[MechaTrunks]

not really because in anime and manga hit increased its power, he explains that he does not use transformations he only improves himself in combat, he does not have to go against logic when they are different concepts

Nopes, that's where the misunderstanding lies I think.
In the anime (I remember that very well) Hit specifically says that he can't increse his power any further, but that he will increse his time-stop ability.
I remember that well becasue when he first said that I thought that we would have a very interesting fight that would reverse Goku and Freeza's roles in the sense that this time would be Goku the one with a timer with his body being forced and Hit the one that would have had to survive until Goku's superiority was over.
But instead we had a time-power up ability that despite it being said multiple times that it was NOT a power up, in the end it ended working like a power up as well.

I don't have any problem with Hit's performance in the manga because it addresses the two plot-holes the anime had:
SSJB Vegeta could use less than 1/10th his regular untrained SSJB power and was below Hit's PL, and he couldn't anticipate Hit's attacks.
And Hit actually powers-up himself to fight against God Goku instead of just powering up his time-stopping technique.

that doesn't mean that can't have mistakes
another translation


anyway even if that's correct it doesn't change the context raditz planned to kill them in one attack

This other translation is much closer to the others. Raditz is clearly saying that he will increase the power of his attacks. That's what we were arguing in the end, if Raditz could or couldn't do this (and he could).
We humans can't control our Ki (let's say that when we get ill and weakened, that would be the equivalent of our Ki getting low) but we can surely control the strength we put behind a punch.

ok .. but you're assuming it and we also don't know if gohan keeps his power or not

When Vegeta grabs his tail, Gohan reacts as if he's being weakened in the same way Raditz did. It's the same than with the KK, we know Gohan still had enough strength to punch and we know he was being weakened because he reacted to Vegeta grabbing his tail.
How much strong Gohan was at that point is something we have to make sense with the rest of the series and taking into account what happened in that scene:
What happened is that Gohan was still able to punch Vegeta, but that Vegeta didn't take very significant damage, so the punch couldn't have been very strong.

trunks punch >>>> spopovich beating
videl> Mr satan

his daughter is stronger than him yet she supports less than him

I don't think you can make this comparison. Trunks clearly holded back a ton with his punch while Spopovich was a super-human.
Satan was koed in that single punch, Videl took a lot of beating.
You can't say that Trunks punched him with more strength than Spopovich to Videl when Satan told Trunks to "gently tap my face" (which is what ended in Satan flying).

It was a comical scene, but it didn't break the internal coherence of the story (like with Cell).

fat buu has regenerate his gum body allows that.
vegeta base is proof that warriors can take hits from opponents more than 10 times stronger

Then why did Vegeta kill kiwi like he was nothing with just 1.5 times his strength?
Why was Raditz so scared of 1300 PL when he was at 1200?
Dodoria was much stronger than Kiwi, and he was still trashed by the same 24.000 Vegeta (so the difference in power there was what, 20% at best?).

Kid bu clearly plays with his victims and doesn't go for the Kill. You can't just dismiss any example you don't like with an excuse of your own making and just say that Toriyama broke the power scale of the whole manga in that fight making Base Vegeta resisting serious Kid Bu punches.

Regards

[Akyon]

Because it's a story and despite popular belief the only thing that matters is that the narrative is interesting. Exact power levels don't matter, the scaling has always been nonsense even from the get go, and thank god or the show wouldn't be even vaguely exciting.

If Goku punches Basil and he's OHKO'd, it's a massive dud of a conflict. If Buu defeats Basil in an exciting and creative way, that's interesting.

Thank god the fans don't write the show because it'd be incredibly boring and predictable if everything had to fit into these made up mathmatics for a battle's outcome.

[Tai Lung]

Nopes, that's where the misunderstanding lies I think.
In the anime (I remember that very well) Hit specifically says that he can't increse his power any further, but that he will increse his time-stop ability.
I remember that well becasue when he first said that I thought that we would have a very interesting fight that would reverse Goku and Freeza's roles in the sense that this time would be Goku the one with a timer with his body being forced and Hit the one that would have had to survive until Goku's superiority was over.
But instead we had a time-power up ability that despite it being said multiple times that it was NOT a power up, in the end it ended working like a power up as well.

I don't have any problem with Hit's performance in the manga because it addresses the two plot-holes the anime had:
SSJB Vegeta could use less than 1/10th his regular untrained SSJB power and was below Hit's PL, and he couldn't anticipate Hit's attacks.
And Hit actually powers-up himself to fight against God Goku instead of just powering up his time-stopping technique.

no, he said he couldn't increase his power by shouting or transforming himself like the saiyans but he can improve in another way to get stronger





is still talking about power ...
that excuse taken from vegeta's ass is one of the reasons because I prefer anime

This other translation is much closer to the others. Raditz is clearly saying that he will increase the power of his attacks. That's what we were arguing in the end, if Raditz could or couldn't do this (and he could).
We humans can't control our Ki (let's say that when we get ill and weakened, that would be the equivalent of our Ki getting low) but we can surely control the strength we put behind a punch..

which does not prove that he can reduce his power 3 times to compare to them ... he assumes that they can hold due to their resistance or defenses
again raditz finds it impossible what goku and piccolo do that's because he trusted the scouter so much

When Vegeta grabs his tail, Gohan reacts as if he's being weakened in the same way Raditz did. It's the same than with the KK, we know Gohan still had enough strength to punch and we know he was being weakened because he reacted to Vegeta grabbing his tail.
How much strong Gohan was at that point is something we have to make sense with the rest of the series and taking into account what happened in that scene:
What happened is that Gohan was still able to punch Vegeta, but that Vegeta didn't take very significant damage, so the punch couldn't have been very strong..

and vegeta has taken more damage than gohan
Vegeta's blows did nothing to gohan semi-ozaru
Well, we are assuming that if Gohan does not have the problem of his father and uncle when they grab his tail, but if he weakens despite having the strength to hit Vegeta again, it is a supposition

I don't think you can make this comparison. Trunks clearly holded back a ton with his punch while Spopovich was a super-human.
Satan was koed in that single punch, Videl took a lot of beating.
You can't say that Trunks punched him with more strength than Spopovich to Videl when Satan told Trunks to "gently tap my face" (which is what ended in Satan flying).
It was a comical scene, but it didn't break the internal coherence of the story (like with Cell)..

the difference in strength was not so much ...
videl, she breaks spopovich neck and mr satan defeated the bald man in the past
videl was hospitalized ... and mr satan was well after a while of rest

mr satan is a gag in battles

Then why did Vegeta kill kiwi like he was nothing with just 1.5 times his strength?
Why was Raditz so scared of 1300 PL when he was at 1200?
Dodoria was much stronger than Kiwi, and he was still trashed by the same 24.000 Vegeta (so the difference in power there was what, 20% at best?).

Kid bu clearly plays with his victims and doesn't go for the Kill. You can't just dismiss any example you don't like with an excuse of your own making and just say that Toriyama broke the power scale of the whole manga in that fight making Base Vegeta resisting serious Kid Bu punches.

Regards

because there are many examples where a weak character fights someone who surpasses him more than 10 times his power in addition to buu also frieza that with 50% he was more than 20 times stronger than Goku and he endured a beating without dying

[MechaTrunks]

Because it's a story and despite popular belief the only thing that matters is that the narrative is interesting. Exact power levels don't matter, the scaling has always been nonsense even from the get go, and thank god or the show wouldn't be even vaguely exciting.

If Goku punches Basil and he's OHKO'd, it's a massive dud of a conflict. If Buu defeats Basil in an exciting and creative way, that's interesting.

Thank god the fans don't write the show because it'd be incredibly boring and predictable if everything had to fit into these made up mathmatics for a battle's outcome.

In fact it's actually the opposite: when Dragon Ball fights are written like they were Naruto, One Piece or Bleach fights (power of love wins coupled with a completely ass-pulled technique because I'm the good guy) it's when the fans complain (Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball GT).

And you only have to see which are the fan's favourite fights in Dragon Ball (always the best written ones).

Ask any fan if he preferes the old DBZ movies (pure spectacle without any substance) or the new ones with Toriyama's involement (BoG, RoF and DBS:Super) and not even the nostalgia makes the fans prefere the old ones (because they're all incoherent messes).

And this applies to any fiction. Do you know what's the difference between Game Of Thrones seasons 1-4 and Game Of Thrones seasons 5-8? Yeah, the equivalent of "power scaling" in those series (coherent characters, coherent dialogues and coherent situations).
Someone with your same criteria would say: "who cares if what was said 20 episodes ago made any sense, what people want to see is spectacle, deaths and blood".
But no, once GoT turned into what you want Dragon Ball to be, it went to shit.

no, he said he couldn't increase his power by shouting or transforming himself like the saiyans but he can improve in another way to get stronger
images
is still talking about power ...
that excuse taken from vegeta's ass is one of the reasons because I prefer anime

Hit only powered up his Time-freezing technique and not his overall strength as explained in here:
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Hit

What sense would it make for Hit to say "I can't increase my power screaming but I can do it anyway without screaming?".
The whole point of Hit's assentment was that he was improving his technique and not his power.

And if the author of the series is explaining you how a NEW TRANSFORMATION works, then that's not an excuse, it's simply how it works. That's why the manga is much better written, even if you enjoy the anime more becasue flashy colours and funny Goku.

which does not prove that he can reduce his power 3 times to compare to them ...

The fact that he is not killing them is what proves that he can reduce the power of his blows to 1/3rd of his maximum.
I mean, yeah, I know that you're pretty invested in defeinding Toei's awful writters (do you work in there?) but nope, not with Raditz.

because there are many examples where a weak character fights someone who surpasses him more than 10 times his power in addition to buu also frieza that with 50% he was more than 20 times stronger than Goku and he endured a beating without dying

And yet you still haven't found a single one that doesn't involve tons of headcanon.
Goku vs 50% Freeza:
1. Goku was always in KKx10 at the very minimum (so 2x difference and not 20x).
2. Freeza was not killing Goku on purpose.

I mean, it's the same as with Raditz or Vegeta or Kid Bu. You don't have to kill someone if you don't want to do so. It doesn't mean they couldn't do it.

Regards!