Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

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Hulk10
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Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:36 pm

I find it rather annoying that Zamasu and the other gods resent barbarism. Especially since barbarism is a subjective term. One that changes meaning depending on who says it. I also don't like how the Barbari's future convinced Zamasu that mortals could not be redeemed. 1,000 years is not that far in geological terms. Given even more time the Barbari could have reached 'enlightenment'.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Lionel » Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm

I don't know. In the Dragon Ball universe, humanity has been walking and developing biologically for 5 million years now. Despite having made some advances, they're still chaotic and unstable. How many times would the planet have been doomed if not for Goku or those immediately around him? You could take away all of the external intergalactic/interdimensional threats and that would still leave you with petty capricious Pilaf, homicidal militaristic Red Ribbon Army, or vengeance driven homicidal cyborgs/artificial constructs.

A perfect society doesn't exist. I guess the closest in the DB universe would be the Namekians and Yardratians. Would Zamasu spare them while slaughtering everyone else?

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:04 pm

Problem is that he had already seen many examples like those of Planet Babari by his own admission. He had already given mortals a lot of opportunities to prove themselves and each they time they squandered their divine gifts by killing each others. Babari was simply the last straw.

What Gowasu should've done was bringing Zamasu to literally any other planet except Babari. I guarantee you that if he showed him a place like Namek or Earth, so planets that are not war-torn shitholes, Zamasu 100% wouldn't have turned evil, because he would have had empirical evidence that mortals can indeed achieve something productive and useful for the universe during their lifespan.

The story isn't even that nuanced, the name of that species is literally "babarians". Gowasu completely failed as a teacher, I simply wonder what the hell he was thinking. You know your student is having a hard time accepting the existence of mortals, and you bring him to a place FULL of warmongering barbarians? :eh:

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:13 pm

Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm I don't know. In the Dragon Ball universe, humanity has been walking and developing biologically for 5 million years now. Despite having made some advances, they're still chaotic and unstable. How many times would the planet have been doomed if not for Goku or those immediately around him? You could take away all of the external intergalactic/interdimensional threats and that would still leave you with petty capricious Pilaf, homicidal militaristic Red Ribbon Army, or vengeance driven homicidal cyborgs/artificial constructs.

A perfect society doesn't exist. I guess the closest in the DB universe would be the Namekians and Yardratians. Would Zamasu spare them while slaughtering everyone else?
I know that. A perfect society is not possible. But try telling that to Zamasu.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:04 pm Problem is that he had already seen many examples like those of Planet Babari by his own admission. He had already given mortals a lot of opportunities to prove themselves and each they time they squandered their divine gifts by killing each others. Babari was simply the last straw.

What Gowasu should've done was bringing Zamasu to literally any other planet except Babari. I guarantee you that if he showed him a place like Namek or Earth, so planets that are not war-torn shitholes, Zamasu 100% wouldn't have turned evil, because he would have had empirical evidence that mortals can indeed achieve something productive and useful for the universe during their lifespan.

The story isn't even that nuanced, the name of that species is literally "babarians". Gowasu completely failed as a teacher, I simply wonder what the hell he was thinking. You know your student is having a hard time accepting the existence of mortals, and you bring him to a place FULL of warmongering barbarians? :eh:
I don't know. Goku made him pretty angry by defeating him. And he was already questioning the worth of mortals. I think he would have gone down the deep end even if he hadn't seen Barbari. Goku was the first trigger, but it was Zamasu's own nature that doomed him. He was already well on the path towards his own doom.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm I don't know. In the Dragon Ball universe, humanity has been walking and developing biologically for 5 million years now. Despite having made some advances, they're still chaotic and unstable. How many times would the planet have been doomed if not for Goku or those immediately around him? You could take away all of the external intergalactic/interdimensional threats and that would still leave you with petty capricious Pilaf, homicidal militaristic Red Ribbon Army, or vengeance driven homicidal cyborgs/artificial constructs.

A perfect society doesn't exist. I guess the closest in the DB universe would be the Namekians and Yardratians. Would Zamasu spare them while slaughtering everyone else?
I know that. A perfect society is not possible. But try telling that to Zamasu.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:04 pm Problem is that he had already seen many examples like those of Planet Babari by his own admission. He had already given mortals a lot of opportunities to prove themselves and each they time they squandered their divine gifts by killing each others. Babari was simply the last straw.

What Gowasu should've done was bringing Zamasu to literally any other planet except Babari. I guarantee you that if he showed him a place like Namek or Earth, so planets that are not war-torn shitholes, Zamasu 100% wouldn't have turned evil, because he would have had empirical evidence that mortals can indeed achieve something productive and useful for the universe during their lifespan.

The story isn't even that nuanced, the name of that species is literally "babarians". Gowasu completely failed as a teacher, I simply wonder what the hell he was thinking. You know your student is having a hard time accepting the existence of mortals, and you bring him to a place FULL of warmongering barbarians? :eh:
I don't know. Goku made him pretty angry by defeating him. And he was already questioning the worth of mortals. I think he would have gone down the deep end even if he hadn't seen Barbari. Goku was the first trigger, but it was Zamasu's own nature that doomed him. He was already well on the path towards his own doom.
I think the main problem with Zamasu is that he always saw planets inhabited by species who fight amongst each others, they constantly kill themselves and never learn until they are brought to annihilation, thus squandering all the gifts that the gods gave them. For a proud Kai like Zamasu, it's easy to see how that would be considered preposterous. Plus the U10 seems to be terrible, just look at their team. Its strongest champions were fools who believe that strength is everything, so Zamasu really was stuck in the most war-like universe, or one of the most war-like anyway.

What Zamasu needed was to see a mortal civilization that actually does someething useful for the universe and uses their divine gifts for good. All he had seen up until that point was mortals killing each others for no reason.

At the very least seeing the namekians would've convinced Zamasu that some mortals deserve to live. Namekians are good people who don't bring war and destruction wherever they go, they are not driven by greed or lust for battle like the babari or saiyans, so they would've been a great example to show Zamasu.

As for the Gods in general, they see mortals more as children than downright barbarians. Gods can live for millions and millions of years, they are literally older than most mortal civilizations. This feeling of arrogance or snobbishness that Gods have for mortals is completely justified. They are their creators after all.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:18 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:03 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm I don't know. In the Dragon Ball universe, humanity has been walking and developing biologically for 5 million years now. Despite having made some advances, they're still chaotic and unstable. How many times would the planet have been doomed if not for Goku or those immediately around him? You could take away all of the external intergalactic/interdimensional threats and that would still leave you with petty capricious Pilaf, homicidal militaristic Red Ribbon Army, or vengeance driven homicidal cyborgs/artificial constructs.

A perfect society doesn't exist. I guess the closest in the DB universe would be the Namekians and Yardratians. Would Zamasu spare them while slaughtering everyone else?
I know that. A perfect society is not possible. But try telling that to Zamasu.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:04 pm Problem is that he had already seen many examples like those of Planet Babari by his own admission. He had already given mortals a lot of opportunities to prove themselves and each they time they squandered their divine gifts by killing each others. Babari was simply the last straw.

What Gowasu should've done was bringing Zamasu to literally any other planet except Babari. I guarantee you that if he showed him a place like Namek or Earth, so planets that are not war-torn shitholes, Zamasu 100% wouldn't have turned evil, because he would have had empirical evidence that mortals can indeed achieve something productive and useful for the universe during their lifespan.

The story isn't even that nuanced, the name of that species is literally "babarians". Gowasu completely failed as a teacher, I simply wonder what the hell he was thinking. You know your student is having a hard time accepting the existence of mortals, and you bring him to a place FULL of warmongering barbarians? :eh:
I don't know. Goku made him pretty angry by defeating him. And he was already questioning the worth of mortals. I think he would have gone down the deep end even if he hadn't seen Barbari. Goku was the first trigger, but it was Zamasu's own nature that doomed him. He was already well on the path towards his own doom.
I think the main problem with Zamasu is that he always saw planets inhabited by species who fight amongst each others, they constantly kill themselves and never learn until they are brought to annihilation, thus squandering all the gifts that the gods gave them. For a proud Kai like Zamasu, it's easy to see how that would be considered preposterous. Plus the U10 seems to be terrible, just look at their team. Its strongest champions were fools who believe that strength is everything, so Zamasu really was stuck in the most war-like universe, or one of the most war-like anyway.

What Zamasu needed was to see a mortal civilization that actually does someething useful for the universe and uses their divine gifts for good. All he had seen up until that point was mortals killing each others for no reason.

At the very least seeing the namekians would've convinced Zamasu that some mortals deserve to live. Namekians are good people who don't bring war and destruction wherever they go, they are not driven by greed or lust for battle like the babari or saiyans, so they would've been a great example to show Zamasu.

As for the Gods in general, they see mortals more as children than downright barbarians. Gods can live for millions and millions of years, they are literally older than most mortal civilizations. This feeling of arrogance or snobbishness that Gods have for mortals is completely justified. They are their creators after all.
I disagree with the snobbishness being justified And with the idea that Zamasu had seen too much of mortal wars. If that were the case then Gowasu might have gone down the same path I as see it. But Gowasu didn't he was focused on his duty and doing his job. Zamasu had an obsession with justice but didn't have the proper compassion and reason to temper it. In the manga he thought Gowasu would teach him about justice, so he was disappointed in some regards. He already had those impulses to kill so he would have cracked sooner or later. However you are right that the U10 team seemed to believe that strength was everything.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:18 pm I disagree with the snobbishness being justified And with the idea that Zamasu had seen too much of mortal wars. If that were the case then Gowasu might have gone down the same path I as see it. But Gowasu didn't he was focused on his duty and doing his job. Zamasu had an obsession with justice but didn't have the proper compassion and reason to temper it. In the manga he thought Gowasu would teach him about justice, so he was disappointed in some regards. He already had those impulses to kill so he would have cracked sooner or later. However you are right that the U10 team seemed to believe that strength was everything.
He was not a ticking bomb, Future Zamasu proves that. Had Zamasu never met Goku nor gone to Planet Babari, he would've never turned evil. Future Zamasu even admits that he always lacked the strength to act against mortals. So yes Zamasu was very much redeemable if Gowasu had used his brain.

Gods in general are very much entitled to treating mortals like inferior creatures, since they literally created them (obviously I am not saying that they should be tyrants, but clearly they are not equals). Without the Kais who nurtured life across the cosmos, mortals wouldn't exist so yes they should learn their place. That's why most gods are often seen giving orders to mortals. At the same time, the gods have a big responsability, they need to protect mortal lives and the universes, and if they don't then they will suffer severe punishments. The ToP proved that, all those gods who never took their job seriously were literally erased along with their entire universes. Also Gods do give credit where credit is due. Beerus commended Roshi for his brilliant performance in the ToP and had Freeza resurrected as reward for his service.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:18 pm I disagree with the snobbishness being justified And with the idea that Zamasu had seen too much of mortal wars. If that were the case then Gowasu might have gone down the same path I as see it. But Gowasu didn't he was focused on his duty and doing his job. Zamasu had an obsession with justice but didn't have the proper compassion and reason to temper it. In the manga he thought Gowasu would teach him about justice, so he was disappointed in some regards. He already had those impulses to kill so he would have cracked sooner or later. However you are right that the U10 team seemed to believe that strength was everything.
He was not a ticking bomb, Future Zamasu proves that. Had Zamasu never met Goku nor gone to Planet Babari, he would've never turned evil. Future Zamasu even admits that he always lacked the strength to act against mortals. So yes Zamasu was very much redeemable if Gowasu had used his brain.

Gods in general are very much entitled to treating mortals like inferior creatures, since they literally created them (obviously I am not saying that they should be tyrants, but clearly they are not equals). Without the Kais who nurtured life across the cosmos, mortals wouldn't exist so yes they should learn their place. That's why most gods are often seen giving orders to mortals. At the same time, the gods have a big responsability, they need to protect mortal lives and the universes, and if they don't then they will suffer severe punishments. The ToP proved that, all those gods who never took their job seriously were literally erased along with their entire universes. Also Gods do give credit where credit is due. Beerus commended Roshi for his brilliant performance in the ToP and had Freeza resurrected as reward for his service.
No they aren't. No one is. Entitlement is part of the problem. I've read the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series and a few other things that have convinced me that entitlement is a bad thing and is not right for anyone god or not. While Gowasu could have done more. Just because he hadn't met Goku yet doesn't mean in time he wouldn't have fallen off the deep end. In the end we will just have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:36 pm

Lionel wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:51 pm I don't know. In the Dragon Ball universe, humanity has been walking and developing biologically for 5 million years now. Despite having made some advances, they're still chaotic and unstable. How many times would the planet have been doomed if not for Goku or those immediately around him? You could take away all of the external intergalactic/interdimensional threats and that would still leave you with petty capricious Pilaf, homicidal militaristic Red Ribbon Army, or vengeance driven homicidal cyborgs/artificial constructs.

A perfect society doesn't exist. I guess the closest in the DB universe would be the Namekians and Yardratians. Would Zamasu spare them while slaughtering everyone else?
I sometimes wonder if Toriyama is a little misanthropic, or at least pretty cynical. Aside from the villains like the RR Army, he tends to portray humanity at large as stupid, weak and docile. While humanity's technological achievements outstrip ours in the Dragon Ball universe, the ones who aren't friends with Goku or practising martial arts are usually portrayed in unflattering lights, or killed off horribly by the villain of the month. Even their biggest contribution in the original series, providing energy for the Spirit Bomb to kill Buu, is based on them being gullible enough to only believe in Mr. Satan above the people that are actually saving the universe. So even that epic moment has a bittersweet twinge. And in interviews, Toriyama goes out of his way to make it clear that the Z-Fighters are never too concerned about protecting humanity.

Then we get to Super, where justice itself is rampantly deconstructed in both Zamasu and the Pride Troopers. Of course, self-righteous villains are nothing new especially in anime, but it's something to consider. Beerus flat-out says that people who care too much about justice aren't to be trusted. What I do appreciate about Super is that bit of edge from Z being carried over.

Anyway, personally, I think that changing the race in the Babari scene wouldn't have made much difference. In my view, Zamasu was looking for confirmation bias. Even if they went to a peaceful civilisation, Zamasu would probably go out of his way to find worse ones to prove his point. Gowasu may have chosen Babari because he thought the image of an obviously savage society evolving to become more civil might be worldview-shattering enough to curb Zamasu's ideology. It's no use trying to pretend that evil doesn't exist in the universe. Condescending to Zamasu like that might have only made him angrier.

I do like the Babari scene a lot. I think it must have been an homage to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Except in 2001 it is humanity, or our ape ancestors, who we see "evolving" through an external force only to find new ways of pettily killing one another. It's a neat reference.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:58 am

Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:18 pm I disagree with the snobbishness being justified And with the idea that Zamasu had seen too much of mortal wars. If that were the case then Gowasu might have gone down the same path I as see it. But Gowasu didn't he was focused on his duty and doing his job. Zamasu had an obsession with justice but didn't have the proper compassion and reason to temper it. In the manga he thought Gowasu would teach him about justice, so he was disappointed in some regards. He already had those impulses to kill so he would have cracked sooner or later. However you are right that the U10 team seemed to believe that strength was everything.
He was not a ticking bomb, Future Zamasu proves that. Had Zamasu never met Goku nor gone to Planet Babari, he would've never turned evil. Future Zamasu even admits that he always lacked the strength to act against mortals. So yes Zamasu was very much redeemable if Gowasu had used his brain.

Gods in general are very much entitled to treating mortals like inferior creatures, since they literally created them (obviously I am not saying that they should be tyrants, but clearly they are not equals). Without the Kais who nurtured life across the cosmos, mortals wouldn't exist so yes they should learn their place. That's why most gods are often seen giving orders to mortals. At the same time, the gods have a big responsability, they need to protect mortal lives and the universes, and if they don't then they will suffer severe punishments. The ToP proved that, all those gods who never took their job seriously were literally erased along with their entire universes. Also Gods do give credit where credit is due. Beerus commended Roshi for his brilliant performance in the ToP and had Freeza resurrected as reward for his service.
No they aren't. No one is. Entitlement is part of the problem. I've read the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series and a few other things that have convinced me that entitlement is a bad thing and is not right for anyone god or not. While Gowasu could have done more. Just because he hadn't met Goku yet doesn't mean in time he wouldn't have fallen off the deep end. In the end we will just have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions.
You do understand that Gods created mortals, yes? Even in real life, you're supposed to listen to what your parents say and follow what they tell you to do, because they are your superiors.

No, he literally admits himself that he always lacked the strength to act and needed Black to propel him into action.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:50 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:58 am
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm

He was not a ticking bomb, Future Zamasu proves that. Had Zamasu never met Goku nor gone to Planet Babari, he would've never turned evil. Future Zamasu even admits that he always lacked the strength to act against mortals. So yes Zamasu was very much redeemable if Gowasu had used his brain.

Gods in general are very much entitled to treating mortals like inferior creatures, since they literally created them (obviously I am not saying that they should be tyrants, but clearly they are not equals). Without the Kais who nurtured life across the cosmos, mortals wouldn't exist so yes they should learn their place. That's why most gods are often seen giving orders to mortals. At the same time, the gods have a big responsability, they need to protect mortal lives and the universes, and if they don't then they will suffer severe punishments. The ToP proved that, all those gods who never took their job seriously were literally erased along with their entire universes. Also Gods do give credit where credit is due. Beerus commended Roshi for his brilliant performance in the ToP and had Freeza resurrected as reward for his service.
No they aren't. No one is. Entitlement is part of the problem. I've read the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series and a few other things that have convinced me that entitlement is a bad thing and is not right for anyone god or not. While Gowasu could have done more. Just because he hadn't met Goku yet doesn't mean in time he wouldn't have fallen off the deep end. In the end we will just have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions.
You do understand that Gods created mortals, yes? Even in real life, you're supposed to listen to what your parents say and follow what they tell you to do, because they are your superiors.

No, he literally admits himself that he always lacked the strength to act and needed Black to propel him into action.
But parents aren't supposed to be condescending. Yes I understand that you are supposed to listen to what your parents say because they are more experienced. But they don't always know better than you. I have looked that up and found sources to support my stance. I can't post them due to not wanting to break the rules. And while he did say that he lacked the will to act that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have acted from some other stimulus.

But anyway we aren't going to change each others minds. I hear what you say. I don't entirely agree but I hear what you are saying and respect your points.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:50 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:58 am
Hulk10 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:24 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:48 pm

He was not a ticking bomb, Future Zamasu proves that. Had Zamasu never met Goku nor gone to Planet Babari, he would've never turned evil. Future Zamasu even admits that he always lacked the strength to act against mortals. So yes Zamasu was very much redeemable if Gowasu had used his brain.

Gods in general are very much entitled to treating mortals like inferior creatures, since they literally created them (obviously I am not saying that they should be tyrants, but clearly they are not equals). Without the Kais who nurtured life across the cosmos, mortals wouldn't exist so yes they should learn their place. That's why most gods are often seen giving orders to mortals. At the same time, the gods have a big responsability, they need to protect mortal lives and the universes, and if they don't then they will suffer severe punishments. The ToP proved that, all those gods who never took their job seriously were literally erased along with their entire universes. Also Gods do give credit where credit is due. Beerus commended Roshi for his brilliant performance in the ToP and had Freeza resurrected as reward for his service.
No they aren't. No one is. Entitlement is part of the problem. I've read the Percy Jackson and the Olympians series and a few other things that have convinced me that entitlement is a bad thing and is not right for anyone god or not. While Gowasu could have done more. Just because he hadn't met Goku yet doesn't mean in time he wouldn't have fallen off the deep end. In the end we will just have to agree to disagree and respect each other's opinions.
You do understand that Gods created mortals, yes? Even in real life, you're supposed to listen to what your parents say and follow what they tell you to do, because they are your superiors.

No, he literally admits himself that he always lacked the strength to act and needed Black to propel him into action.
But parents aren't supposed to be condescending. Yes I understand that you are supposed to listen to what your parents say because they are more experienced. But they don't always know better than you. I have looked that up and found sources to support my stance. I can't post them due to not wanting to break the rules. And while he did say that he lacked the will to act that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have acted from some other stimulus.

But anyway we aren't going to change each others minds. I hear what you say. I don't entirely agree but I hear what you are saying and respect your points.
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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Psajdak » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:40 pm

It is simply hard for me to accept Zamasu as some deep villain with good reasons, especially after seeing his evil grin so many times.

Not to mention killing people who were obviously good, like Mirai Bulma.

He didn't felt like a judge of humanity to be honest with that kind of face, btw.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:56 pm

Psajdak wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:40 pm It is simply hard for me to accept Zamasu as some deep villain with good reasons, especially after seeing his evil grin so many times.

Not to mention killing people who were obviously good, like Mirai Bulma.

He didn't felt like a judge of humanity to be honest with that kind of face, btw.
That's just Kai anatomy, Shin also had a super creepy smile when he first appeared. It's tradition for Supreme Kais to smile in a sinister way.

He did judge humanity, and he found it unworthy and sinful. The only difference with an irl judge is that he didn't wait for the police but decided to take matters into his own hands.

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Re: Zamasu's Problem with Barbarism

Post by Psajdak » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:27 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:56 pm That's just Kai anatomy, Shin also had a super creepy smile when he first appeared. It's tradition for Supreme Kais to smile in a sinister way.

He did judge humanity, and he found it unworthy and sinful. The only difference with an irl judge is that he didn't wait for the police but decided to take matters into his own hands.
IMO, Shin having that creepy smile was just Toriyama's way to show him as even more mysterious, and someone special, as well as to make it even more "rewarding" once they get to the point of him (Shin) realizing that Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta are still way above him, even though they are mortals.

It is similar situation to when 18 saw Vegeta fighting Semi-Perfect Cell, or Kibito facing Gohan on tournament, or little Trunks witnessing Goku's true power when he transformed into Super Saiyan 3, or Beerus slowly realizing that Goku is more than just talk...

It is one of the main tropes of series, for main characters to initially be underestimated, for them to expect opponents' expectations.

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