Could A Fusion Of Bardock & King Vegeta Have Defeated Freeza?

[dario03]

Wasn't the power level times power level thing only ever related to potora fusion? And wasn't it contradicted by other statements anyways?

I thought fusion dance was said to be something like 10s of times stronger and in another spot said to be a greater increase than Super Saiyan. So highball estimate would be something like adding the powers together and multiplying by 90. Which in this case if going by the old Bardock special would put them somewhere around 1,800,000. So enough to beat first and second form but even if they could go Super Saiyan they probably wouldn't be able to beat Freeza's true form. With the fusion increase I listed King Vegeta would need to be close to 17,000pl in order for that fusion to be enough to exceed 120,000,000. And iirc some statements in the special imply King Vegeta wasn't much stronger than Bardock and Vegeta states that he surpassed his father as a child. And Prince Vegeta was at 18,000 when he came to Earth and had been flying around conquering planets for years. So unless Prince Vegeta had actually just barely surpassed his father and then got barely any stronger since he was a kid it doesn't look to likely.

[Grimlock]

The guide describes Potara fusion, yes, but it doesn't mean it can't be used for the Metamoru fusion too. Multiplication is used for other transformations and even techniques like Kaio-ken, it stands to reason is the same for Metamoru. And no, as far as I know, it hasn't been contradicted.

[Mac]

Fusion is pretty all over the place as far as power level goes. They're just both incredibly weak, even with it. I don't think they'd scale up to Freezas max power. If they transformed he's going to cut their tail off and then they're really screwed.

[SSJgogeto]

I don't think they can win, and actually I don't know if they can win even against Freeza in his first form.

[theherodjl]

Eh, I trust Frieza's conniving-ness over Bardock/King Vegeta's power. All things being equal otherwise, it would be a fight to the death.

There's also instances in which Saiyans can tap into greater strength than what their ordinary forms usually allow, as though they can siphon power from their transformations or raw potential into their normal forms. The movies, more often than not, depict such examples of Base Saiyans attempting to battle powerful opponents before deciding that they need to transform. In the latest movie, Gogeta chose to begin the battle in base against Broly rather than transform right off the bat, impressively managing to dodge Broly's attacks before transforming for an offensive. If Bardock & King Vegeta have access to this degree of powerup, whether it be comparatively minor(due to only knowing Oozaru) or being practically the same as with Vegetto/Gogeta/Kefla, then their fusion can possibly be more powerful than Freeza even if they remained in base.
It Freeza wants to win, he'd probably need to destroy the current world & spaceships around them so that the fusion would asphixiate. I don't doubt that Freeza can do that...but he'd need to do it before the fusion got wise to his plan, something up in the air depending on how well Bardock & King Vegeta could know/anticipate what Freeza does.

[theherodjl]

I don't think they can win, and actually I don't know if they can win even against Freeza in his first form.

If Bardock & Vegeta are both around the 10,000 mark of BP, they'd be about 500,000 as SSJs. However, their fusion would easily be multiple times higher than that as even base Saiyan fusions are far stronger than their individual, SSJ fusees. Freeza would need to transform so as to not be instantaneously killed on the spot.

[dario03]

The guide describes Potara fusion, yes, but it doesn't mean it can't be used for the Metamoru fusion too. Multiplication is used for other transformations and even techniques like Kaio-ken, it stands to reason is the same for Metamoru. And no, as far as I know, it hasn't been contradicted.

If the guide only mentions Potara I would lean toward it only talking about Potara especially since it came after Metamor. And sure multiplication being part of Fusion makes sense but I wouldn't say that power level times power level stands to reason. And I'm pretty sure its been said that fusion dance is tens of times stronger, somewhere about Gotenks in a guide or similar in Z, or if we go beyond that then again about Gogeta in GT guide, and even about Potara in Super.

[HimuraBenny]

Eh, I trust Frieza's conniving-ness over Bardock/King Vegeta's power. All things being equal otherwise, it would be a fight to the death.

There's also instances in which Saiyans can tap into greater strength than what their ordinary forms usually allow, as though they can siphon power from their transformations or raw potential into their normal forms. The movies, more often than not, depict such examples of Base Saiyans attempting to battle powerful opponents before deciding that they need to transform. In the latest movie, Gogeta chose to begin the battle in base against Broly rather than transform right off the bat, impressively managing to dodge Broly's attacks before transforming for an offensive. If Bardock & King Vegeta have access to this degree of powerup, whether it be comparatively minor(due to only knowing Oozaru) or being practically the same as with Vegetto/Gogeta/Kefla, then their fusion can possibly be more powerful than Freeza even if they remained in base.
It Freeza wants to win, he'd probably need to destroy the current world & spaceships around them so that the fusion would asphixiate. I don't doubt that Freeza can do that...but he'd need to do it before the fusion got wise to his plan, something up in the air depending on how well Bardock & King Vegeta could know/anticipate what Freeza does.

There is so much more to this argument than simple power level factoring. King Vegeta would probably have many sociopolitical factors to consider before agreeing with Bardock to fuse, he would also have to be pretty convinced of Bardock's argument that Frieza is planning to take out planet vegeta.

[theherodjl]

There is so much more to this argument than simple power level factoring. King Vegeta would probably have many sociopolitical factors to consider before agreeing with Bardock to fuse, he would also have to be pretty convinced of Bardock's argument that Frieza is planning to take out planet vegeta.

Except the question here isn't "how willing would King Vegeta be to fuse with Bardock?", its "could a fusion of King Vegeta & Bardock have defeated Freeza?". This topic inquires about the character's strength regarding fusion rather than their desire or reason to fuse, that is an argument for another time.

[HimuraBenny]

There is so much more to this argument than simple power level factoring. King Vegeta would probably have many sociopolitical factors to consider before agreeing with Bardock to fuse, he would also have to be pretty convinced of Bardock's argument that Frieza is planning to take out planet vegeta.

Except the question here isn't "how willing would King Vegeta be to fuse with Bardock?", its "could a fusion of King Vegeta & Bardock have defeated Freeza?". This topic inquires about the character's strength regarding fusion rather than their desire or reason to fuse, that is an argument for another time.

But these things come in to play when you have these two fuse.

I guess I want a better set up for how they are fusing. I think the imagery implied is that instead of Bardocks last stand its Bargeta's last stand and we are comparing frieza's death ball to whatever amalgamation of ki blasts Bargeta comes up with.

There is still the road to that point that has to be discussed since that would contain the act of the fusion.

[Grimlock]

If the guide only mentions Potara I would lean toward it only talking about Potara especially since it came after Metamor.

I don't know what "X coming after Y" has anything to do, but anyway.

If fusee x fusee can't defeat their enemies, it's not fusee + fusee that will, considering addition generally provides lower results.
3 + 3 = 6.
3 x 3 = 9.

I wouldn't say that power level times power level stands to reason.

And the reason is...?

And I'm pretty sure its been said that fusion dance is tens of times stronger, somewhere about Gotenks in a guide or similar in Z, or if we go beyond that then again about Gogeta in GT guide, and even about Potara in Super.

The only place I've seen that is in Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files. Which goes without saying that statement does not make sense at all. Fusion is "A power x B power level" and their power can be further multiplied by the Super Saiyan form multipliers.

Using Bardock and King Vegeta fusion to elaborate and assuming both have power level of ten thousand:

10,000 (Bardock) x 10,000 (King Vegeta) = 100,000,000 (King Bargeta/King Vegedock).

100,000,000 x 50 (Super Saiyan multiplier) = 5,000,000,000 (Super Saiyan King Bargeta/King Vegedock).


We don't know how much the Super Saiyan 4's multiplier is, but it's obviously higher than Super Saiyan 3's x400 multiplier. So whatever base fused character's power level is, when they transform into Super Saiyan 4 they won't be "tens of times stronger", they will be whatever Super Saiyan 4's multiplier states them to be.

[Desassina]

Fusion is the sum of two powers increased by tens of times. A plus B times 10 at least. It's like Kaioken x20 over a single character. More in case you want to. Barking Dog would not make it. He's just like his name.

[theherodjl]

Fusion is the sum of two powers increased by tens of times. A plus B times 10 at least. It's like Kaioken x20 over a single character. More in case you want to. Barking Dog would not make it. He's just like his name.

If that were true then Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks wouldn't be able to match Fat Boo. Base Vegetto wouldn't be stronger than Boohan. Base Kefla wouldn't be stronger than SSJG Goku. And Base Gogeta wouldn't be able to dodge SSJ Broly's attacks.
There is a clear pattern here: fusion is not simply "A + B x 10", fusion is "A + B x (whatever amount it needs to be)".

[Grimlock]

I would like a source that states this "A + B x 10" formula. Never seen it before. Not in any official material at least.

[dario03]

If the guide only mentions Potara I would lean toward it only talking about Potara especially since it came after Metamor.

I don't know what "X coming after Y" has anything to do, but anyway.

If fusee x fusee can't defeat their enemies, it's not fusee + fusee that will, considering addition generally provides lower results.
3 + 3 = 6.
3 x 3 = 9.

X coming after Y is to put further emphasis on the fact that the statement was only said about a different form of fusion. If the statement was to apply to both I would think it would have mentioned both since both already existed. But even if we ignore that the point is there is no reason to assume that the statement applies to both.

Also I never said it was just addition.

I wouldn't say that power level times power level stands to reason.

And the reason is...?

Because stands to reason implies that it is the obvious logical answer. It is an answer, but not the clear answer. I wouldn't state any answer (including the example I used earlier) to be the only answer. Well at least not for in universe answer, (a+b) x something or whatever the plot calls for answer would be the answer.

And I'm pretty sure its been said that fusion dance is tens of times stronger, somewhere about Gotenks in a guide or similar in Z, or if we go beyond that then again about Gogeta in GT guide, and even about Potara in Super.

The only place I've seen that is in Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files. Which goes without saying that statement does not make sense at all. Fusion is "A power x B power level" and their power can be further multiplied by the Super Saiyan form multipliers.

Using Bardock and King Vegeta fusion to elaborate and assuming both have power level of ten thousand:

10,000 (Bardock) x 10,000 (King Vegeta) = 100,000,000 (King Bargeta/King Vegedock).

100,000,000 x 50 (Super Saiyan multiplier) = 5,000,000,000 (Super Saiyan King Bargeta/King Vegedock).


We don't know how much the Super Saiyan 4's multiplier is, but it's obviously higher than Super Saiyan 3's x400 multiplier. So whatever base fused character's power level is, when they transform into Super Saiyan 4 they won't be "tens of times stronger", they will be whatever Super Saiyan 4's multiplier states them to be.

Vados says it in Super around when Kefla shows up.

[Grimlock]

Also I never said it was just addition.

Then my question above goes to you too. I would like a source that states addition is even part of the equation.

Vados says it in Super around when Kefla shows up.

Ah, that one. I don't know how reliable is this subtitle, but even if that's the case, It's like I said, fusion increasing the power by mere "tens of times" from their fusees is inconceivable. Kafla wouldn't be able to outperform Super Saiyan God Goku if that were the case. This increase in power is not enough, too small. But Kafla does stand chance if it's Kale's power level x Caulifla's power level, as it was officially established by the Super Exciting Guide, "specifically for the Potara fusion" as you want it.

[Desassina]

Fusion is the sum of two powers increased by tens of times. A plus B times 10 at least. It's like Kaioken x20 over a single character. More in case you want to. Barking Dog would not make it. He's just like his name.

If that were true then Post-ROSAT Base Gotenks wouldn't be able to match Fat Boo. Base Vegetto wouldn't be stronger than Boohan. Base Kefla wouldn't be stronger than SSJG Goku. And Base Gogeta wouldn't be able to dodge SSJ Broly's attacks.
There is a clear pattern here: fusion is not simply "A + B x 10", fusion is "A + B x (whatever amount it needs to be)".

Will I have to argue a story statement against a personal battle power scale? What if I just created mine to work with it? This doesn't belong here.

[dario03]

Also I never said it was just addition.

Then my question above goes to you too. I would like a source that states addition is even part of the equation.

Vados says it in Super around when Kefla shows up.

Ah, that one. I don't know how reliable is this subtitle, but even if that's the case, It's like I said, fusion increasing the power by mere "tens of times" from their fusees is inconceivable. Kafla wouldn't be able to outperform Super Saiyan God Goku if that were the case. This increase in power is not enough, too small. But Kafla does stand chance if it's Kale's power level x Caulifla's power level.

The addition part is because its 2 people fusing. You could leave it out if you really wanted to. So if it was something like (a+b)x10 you could just make it ax20. The dance is supposed to require the fighters to match power anyways, so you would get the same answer.

And how is it inconceivable? Super is all over the place with power scaling. And its not like power level x power level perfectly fits either. Yeah Kefla in base outperformed a tired SSG Goku but right after that tired SSB Goku was keeping up with SS Kefla for a while. Wouldn't Kefla's power being increased by what millions, billions, trillions over her halfs be way way to much for Goku?

[Desassina]

I don't understand the complaint on the basis that feats contradict their claims. Gogeta began fighting where SSB Goku left off in a movie where base Goku fought Wrathful Broly after SSG Vegeta. And the latter was tapped out to ask for a senzu bean before he joined Goku in SSB form. So what gives? Is it really fair to judge a fusion statement based on base Kefla surpassing a tired SSG Goku only? Come on.

[theherodjl]

Will I have to argue a story statement against a personal battle power scale? What if I just created mine to work with it? This doesn't belong here.

The fact of the matter is that fusion among Saiyans can raise the power of the resulting warrior by whatever massive amount. All examples of Saiyan fusions demonstrate that it is more along the lines of hundreds to thousands of times more powerful than the individual fusees. A mere "tens of times" is likely just a general guess on what fusion is ordinarily capable of without the configuring of Saiyan power & potential.