How much do you think Gine impacted the Story ?

[GoodboiRaditz]

Given how Saiyans were portrayed there is no way a person like her could've survived long but with the recent portayal of the Saiyans she takes more from the mystery from Goku and Bardock , in the original Bardock didn't care about family at all but now we see him hugging and flirting with Gine like a regular dude , Goku was going to make Earth his world by conquering everything and now we find out that his gentle side came from his mother , Raditz is the only one to escape this tragedy ( mainly because he died in 5 episodes) but if he somehow survived and turned out good we could again that was from his mother , my point is that Gine takes from the drama that the Saiyans are horrible
people and can only see the error of their ways when they're gonna die like Bardock and with the sheer luck of fate like Goku's hit as a kid on his head and somehow not at all like Raditz

[Psajdak]

She has a nice design, and personality, and overall is a good example that there is more to Saiyans beside fighting.

But storywise, it is similar to Bulma's sister Tights - she is introduced way too late for me to relate her to Goku much; I guess for me, the best thing about her is simply, well, knowing what Goku's mom looks like.
It would have been nice to have Goku have a meeting with his entire family, including seeing grandpa Gohan again.

Anyway, didn't impact story, like, at all, but she's okay.

[GoodboiRaditz]

She has a nice design, and personality, and overall is a good example that there is more to Saiyans beside fighting.

But storywise, it is similar to Bulma's sister Tights - she is introduced way too late for me to relate her to Goku much; I guess for me, the best thing about her is simply, well, knowing what Goku's mom looks like.
It would have been nice to have Goku have a meeting with his entire family, including seeing grandpa Gohan again.

Anyway, didn't impact story, like, at all, but she's okay.

I feel she takes a lot of what made Bardock and Goku so popular , Goku was a ruthless kid who was destines to take over the earth and only didn't because he hits his head but now we can just assume that even if he didn't he would've turned out fine and she even made Bardock like so out of character , this man didn't care about anything but fighting and suddenly he has a happy wife .

[Grimlock]

Unfortunately, none. But it's one of those rare cases where a character doesn't need to make some impact, really. She is a great character with a nice design and personality. And that's all she needs.

Would like to see a little more of her backstory, though. Trying to kill some aliens only to mess it up and being saved by Bardock and her interactions with Raditz since his birth.

[GoodboiRaditz]

Unfortunately, none. But it's one of those rare cases where a character doesn't need to make some impact, really. She is a great character with a nice design and personality. And that's all she needs.

Would like to see a little more of her backstory, though. Trying to kill some aliens only to mess it up and being saved by Bardock and her interactions with Raditz since his birth.

I would start to like her more if she was given a solid reason as to why she turned out so nice compared to the average Saiyan brute .

As for the interraction with Raditz , i recommand that you watch Dragonball R&R , it's fan made seriea of Radditz turning good , and there is an episode when Radiitz explains his relationship with his parents and especially his mother .

[Psajdak]

I feel she takes a lot of what made Bardock and Goku so popular , Goku was a ruthless kid who was destines to take over the earth and only didn't because he hits his head but now we can just assume that even if he didn't he would've turned out fine and she even made Bardock like so out of character , this man didn't care about anything but fighting and suddenly he has a happy wife .

To be honest, Goku being nasty Saiyan kid before hitting his head never really mattered that much, IMO; we were given that information in one short scene, and that was it.
Goku was always the way we knew him.

As for Bardock, even before DBS Movie: Broly, I think most, if not all of fandom saw him as antihero type of character, or simply in more positive light, that what he did in his past didn't have much of effect on why he is popular.

Although, yeah, his relationship with Gine did change some of my earlier impressions about him, for better.

[Tai Lung]

Given how Saiyans were portrayed there is no way a person like her could've survived long but with the recent portayal of the Saiyans she takes more from the mystery from Goku and Bardock , in the original Bardock didn't care about family at all but now we see him hugging and flirting with Gine like a regular dude , Goku was going to make Earth his world by conquering everything and now we find out that his gentle side came from his mother , Raditz is the only one to escape this tragedy ( mainly because he died in 5 episodes) but if he somehow survived and turned out good we could again that was from his mother , my point is that Gine takes from the drama that the Saiyans are horrible
people and can only see the error of their ways when they're gonna die like Bardock and with the sheer luck of fate like Goku's hit as a kid on his head and somehow not at all like Raditz

the only way it affects history is that it was she who changed to bardock in the same way that bulma did with vegeta

which somehow made bardock save goku from dying ...
so bardock is finally relevant since his action allowed everything to originate
gine on the other hand his participation is very indirect ...
exists to symbolize the tragedy of several of the innocent lives that died

[GoodboiRaditz]

Given how Saiyans were portrayed there is no way a person like her could've survived long but with the recent portayal of the Saiyans she takes more from the mystery from Goku and Bardock , in the original Bardock didn't care about family at all but now we see him hugging and flirting with Gine like a regular dude , Goku was going to make Earth his world by conquering everything and now we find out that his gentle side came from his mother , Raditz is the only one to escape this tragedy ( mainly because he died in 5 episodes) but if he somehow survived and turned out good we could again that was from his mother , my point is that Gine takes from the drama that the Saiyans are horrible
people and can only see the error of their ways when they're gonna die like Bardock and with the sheer luck of fate like Goku's hit as a kid on his head and somehow not at all like Raditz

the only way it affects history is that it was she who changed to bardock in the same way that bulma did with vegeta

which somehow made bardock save goku from dying ...
so bardock is finally relevant since his action allowed everything to originate
gine on the other hand his participation is very indirect ...
exists to symbolize the tragedy of several of the innocent lives that died

I think she took a lot from Goku's character , he was supposed to be one in a million , his gentle nature was something never seen before amongst Saiyans , with her introduction in the story he's just one of many nice saiyans .

[Tai Lung]

Given how Saiyans were portrayed there is no way a person like her could've survived long but with the recent portayal of the Saiyans she takes more from the mystery from Goku and Bardock , in the original Bardock didn't care about family at all but now we see him hugging and flirting with Gine like a regular dude , Goku was going to make Earth his world by conquering everything and now we find out that his gentle side came from his mother , Raditz is the only one to escape this tragedy ( mainly because he died in 5 episodes) but if he somehow survived and turned out good we could again that was from his mother , my point is that Gine takes from the drama that the Saiyans are horrible
people and can only see the error of their ways when they're gonna die like Bardock and with the sheer luck of fate like Goku's hit as a kid on his head and somehow not at all like Raditz

the only way it affects history is that it was she who changed to bardock in the same way that bulma did with vegeta

which somehow made bardock save goku from dying ...
so bardock is finally relevant since his action allowed everything to originate
gine on the other hand his participation is very indirect ...
exists to symbolize the tragedy of several of the innocent lives that died

I think she took a lot from Goku's character , he was supposed to be one in a million , his gentle nature was something never seen before amongst Saiyans , with her introduction in the story he's just one of many nice saiyans .

kind Saiyans are a minority ... and generally not fit for fighting because they lacked those instincts

goodness and evil are not inherited ... the Saiyans are violent because they like to fight ... because they live on an uncivilized planet and in a violent time ... it is because of this that raditz is evil
goku hit his head and then turned good

[miguelnuva1]

Gine was nice interacting with her husband and baby son. Even the most evil being would be nicer with their mate and children. Cold goes to great length to find Frieza for example.

[OhHiRenan]

Gine's basically just an answer to a trivia question. There's no real meat to her character, and I can't say she adds anything meaningful to Goku or the greater Dragon Ball mythos.

[God]

Given how Saiyans were portrayed there is no way a person like her could've survived long but with the recent portayal of the Saiyans she takes more from the mystery from Goku and Bardock , in the original Bardock didn't care about family at all but now we see him hugging and flirting with Gine like a regular dude , Goku was going to make Earth his world by conquering everything and now we find out that his gentle side came from his mother , Raditz is the only one to escape this tragedy ( mainly because he died in 5 episodes) but if he somehow survived and turned out good we could again that was from his mother , my point is that Gine takes from the drama that the Saiyans are horrible

Toriyama and Shueisha have been trying to retcon that fact that Saiyans are a cruel warrior race hellbent on fighting and conquering planets for awhile now. Just look at the original Battle of Gods script and how it was intended for Beerus to be a creature that, I kid you not, "infected the Saiyans with evil" and now you have this DBS Broly movie that makes it so there are non-fighters and the butchering of Saiyans as a whole starting with Bardock.

Thank god this stuff isn't canon

[Matches Malone]

Modern DB as a whole has been going out of its way to change the brutal image of the Saiyans previously established in the manga. Minus pretty much changed everything we know about Goku and his father. It also shows the Saiyans being more civilized. Broly's tragic backstory was very toned down in Super compared to what it was in Z. Vegeta has brother who doesn't like fighting. That's just U7, we now have an alternate universe where the Saiyan planet is the center of peace and justice in the universe.

For me personally, it has no impact at all, as modern DB (apart from BOG) is so different from the original I can't even consider them as one story.

Goku was a ruthless kid who was destines to take over the earth and only didn't because he hits his head but now we can just assume that even if he didn't he would've turned out fine.

This pretty much killed that story for me. Everything DB is built on was due to that one lucky day of Goku hitting his head, yet Minus throws that out the window by implying things may have turned out OK if he didn't. Another thing it took away was Goku's ability to rise from being a low class who was banished to surpassing the best of the Saiyan race. Now he was sent there to be saved by his parents, it had nothing to do with him being weak or unwanted on the planet. I'll never understand the need for some authors to return to an established story decades later and change everything about it.

[pepd]

The incomplete info we had of them gave the wrong impression sure, and it could be considered that Toriyama is stretching what he wrote with the new saiyajin content, but he doesn't really break it to be considered a retcon.
I think some formed the image of cruel savages, so now that they are not really savages, not everyone is a cruel warrior, and Bardock cared enough for his son to save his life, it feels contradictory; but if you forget that image and read everything as a whole, it fits well without contractions

[Matches Malone]

If you forget that image and read everything as a whole, it fits well without contractions

The problem is that everything Raditz told Goku had been established since 89, only to be completely changed decades later. What was the point of doing that ? Bardock had been an established character for nearly as long, only to be changed for no reason. Trying to make Saiyans look good by showing other parts of their society would've been more acceptable than changing established lore that's been the basis for the entire franchise for decades.

[miguelnuva1]

Raditz is an unreliable narrator. He is trying to pump up how his saiyan life is going vs how actually saiyan life is going.

As far as Bardock saving Goku I don't have a problem with it because OG Bardock being a worse Dad then King Cold doesn't seem like a good fit.

If the two Bardock were combined it would fit fine as OG Bardock was going to try and save Goku anyway.

[WittyUsername]

I would definitely side with the opinion that the changes made to Goku’s backstory were completely unnecessary. It’s one thing to establish that Saiyans aren’t just one dimensional savages, but changing the entire reason for why Goku was sent to Earth is just lame, especially when the original reason was much more unique.

Anyway, I suppose you could argue that Gine did impact the story to an extent, since Bardock implied that she was the reason he became more soft and caring. In other words, if it hadn’t been for her influence, Bardock supposedly would’ve been less inclined to risk everything for the sake of his son. Ironically, that only serves to make Raditz seem like the outlier of the family.

[Tai Lung]

Thank god this stuff isn't canon

is canon

This pretty much killed that story for me. Everything DB is built on was due to that one lucky day of Goku hitting his head, yet Minus throws that out the window by implying things may have turned out OK if he didn't. Another thing it took away was Goku's ability to rise from being a low class who was banished to surpassing the best of the Saiyan race. Now he was sent there to be saved by his parents, it had nothing to do with him being weak or unwanted on the planet. I'll never understand the need for some authors to return to an established story decades later and change everything about it.

db minus never shows that ... the blow to the head happened

[Matches Malone]

Ironically, that only serves to make Raditz seem like the outlier of the family.

Raditz just makes minus standout even more as something that released decades later to change established lore. Raditz isn't an outlier, he's proof that Minus was such a rushed last minute decision that Toriyama didn't even take into account how it doesn't line up with Raditz's Saiyan arc appearance at all. Although Toriyama never planned too far ahead back in the day, he made sure that everything connected so that it wouldn't feel like he was just making it up as he went along. Minus is exactly how the original manga as a whole would've turned out had he not cared about that back in the day.

[Yuli Ban]

My take on the issue leaves me perplexed with Gine, largely. In fact, part of me wonders if there wasn't something a little more traditionalist going on behind her creation.

Yes, Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta stressed the point that the Saiyajin are savages— Kaio-sama went on a whole diatribe about the dark history of the Saiyan race to boot, and Freeza & his men all seem to regard the Saiyans in both disgust and some level of respect that they were indeed a race of capable warriors, if only too brutish and uppity to sustain themselves under His Almighty Lordship. We absolutely knew that Saiyans were a Proud Warrior Race, so brutal and strong that even decades after their extinction, the universe still trembles at their very mention.

Thing is, it might've been a Sparta situation where the Saiyans themselves promoted such a viewpoint to give themselves a more fearsome reputation. Of course a Proud Warrior Race would want the universe to fear them and see them as barbaric savages that kill everything that moves. In reality, if they had a functioning civilization at all, they couldn't have been all destruction all the time. We only ever met the warrior Saiyans. It's like if aliens from Alpha Centauri only encountered Earthling humans who are a part of the Navy Seals or Waffen SS— of course they'd think humans are bloodthirsty warriors engineered for combat.


It's a children's comic, I'm aware. I'm just saying. Dragon Ball always had that strain of realism to it, that element of adding real world things to fantastical elements (like making a Taoist/Buddhist afterlife based on Japanese office culture), and the anime certainly increased the brutality of some characters (ironically considering it made Goku more of a hero— manga Freeza never needlessly killed his own men, for example).

If space Marines encountered hostile (but weak) aliens, they'd speak of humanity as a whole, not just their own squad or nation, when talking about how ruthless humans can be.



THAT SAID... Goku's mission was long established and fit a great theme: he is different from the rest. Whereas the Saiyans were an insane, doomed race that cared about destruction and piracy, Son Goku was a more righteous warrior who would aim his fists in the right direction. Saiyans may have been unjustly destroyed, but if Freeza didn't kill them, they'd have become worse than he was. There were no "good" Saiyans. They were all violent evil-doers, which made Goku's shift all that much more impactful (and all that much funnier in that he didn't give two shits about Saiyans when they themselves were constantly talking about Saiyan pride and honor and history). Goku was just a low-class nothing sent to Earth as an infant by this psychotically violent species of war monkeys, so crazed for war and profit that they'd literally ship their own babies across the cosmos— and so strong that these babies could also wipe out entire races. He failed because of unlikely twists in history. He never lost his Saiyan lust for battle, but did turn it into something positive.

Gine changed pretty much that entire theme. Not only is Goku's relative kindness no longer an anomaly & chance of fate, but the dramatic irony of him being sent to Earth is changed to one that is now quite literally exactly what Western fans always claimed it to be: a rip-off of Superman.

Remember when Son Goku and Piccolo were once great opposites? Goku was a savage sent to Earth to cleanse it of life, but through brain damage and being raised by a mostly kind-hearted man, wound up becoming its savior; Piccolo was of a Namekian coming to Earth to seek a better life, but the evil of mankind wound up leading to his original self being split and now seeking to destroy his new home. The retcon ruined that. It's seemingly inconsequential since it doesn't really change that arc, but in an overall manner, it definitely detracts from the larger themes of the Daimao & 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arcs.


What's the payoff for this? Does Gine herself make up the loss of this otherwise fantastic and deceptively simple tale?

Frankly, no. Gine's just a generic woman character. As another poster mentioned, she's literally just a trivia answer:

Q: "Who is Goku's mom?"
A: Gine, a kind-hearted and gentle Saiyaness who was so concerned for her son's safety that she sent him to Earth.

In fact, that actually makes me raise an eyebrow. Saiyan women were often said to be very strong-willed as well as strong in their own right, and certainly not above doing the same savage evil as their male counterparts. How interesting, then, that Goku's mother just happens to fit into the mold of the kind and graceful Yamato Nadeshiko ideal, except shifted slightly over to Saiyans. She even has a fucking battle armor skirt. What the hell?!
She's so kind that she even brings Bardock around to the side of being romantic and kindhearted, caring about his fellow Saiyans in a very humanlike way. This goes entirely against what was set up decades ago: Bardock's just another Saiyan grunt, mostly emotionless and expendable. He doesn't even remember when his son was born.
Now, maybe that's just him displaying machismo in front of his comrades. Indeed, something interesting about a lot of Super's retcons is that many don't explicitly retcon everything but rather fill out details at the expense of commonly accepted fanon (e.g. Potara fusion lasting only a hour for mortals, when for decades fans wondered why Vegetto split up); the idea that Bardock played up how much of an uncaring ass he was for his squad seems to make sense. But it definitely doesn't feel as good as the idea that Bardock genuinely is just a henchman. That was the point of his story: Bardock was just a henchman who saw Freeza would destroy the Saiyans out of a fear that a Super Saiyan was going to arise and overthrow him.

Fans have long misunderstood Bardock, thinking he became good and repentant before he died. No! He still didn't care about Kakarot as a person; only as his avenger and a future warrior. If he actually defeated Freeza, he'd have continued going around killing people. Hell, he'd probably have found Earth to collect Kakarot and killed its peoples himself before bringing him on board his squad. And that's if Kakarot was Kakarot and not Son Goku— he'd have just been an alternate-color Tullece otherwise, deciding to kill his son for insubordination and softness wrought by Earth. He was no heroic character. He had Goku's hair and that was it; the son was nothing like the father.

But now he is a hero, with Gine used as the excuse why. Goku didn't become different from his parents and use that fact to become something far greater than anything they ever could— now he follows in their footsteps. And it's not because Goku's become more of a chaotic renegade.

To use an analogy that forumgoers here might easily get, it's no different than if one of Dr. Eggman's Egg Pawns decided to go against him, like say E-123 Omega, except if their story ended with Eggman simply pressing a "self-destruct" button that annihilated a whole contingent, leaving behind a Chaos Emerald that Sonic later uses to defeat Eggman. Sonic never even meets this creation; it's just a story of a creation made to do evil that got angry over being wronged and tried to kill its creator and failed, but left behind something good.
Except a few decades later long after this character became superpopular with the fans, we learn that this Egg Pawn was actually basically Sonic's friend all along and cared about the world and its peoples and didn't want to work for Eggman and deliberately left the Chaos Emerald behind out of a hope Sonic would make good use of it, like E-102 Gamma but worse and twenty-five years after the fact.

Gine doesn't need to be a warrior to be a good character, certainly (though being in a punch-happy fighting manga definitely handicaps her in that regard). The issue is that what she is now brings nothing really essential to the story except fucking up with things that made the story captivating (and straightforward) before.


Saiyans evil; Goku not evil. Great theme.
Saiyans generally bad, but a few good apples; Goku good because mother good— I mean, that obvious works and is more realistic & true to life, but does it work as well? It's a case where the simpler version is better because it's only deceptively simple; it's how the themes fit into each other that gives the story some hidden depth.


TLDR: Mansplaining that Gine is unnecessary because she's a femoid in my manly man's cartoon for schoolchildren. Gine impacted the story in a negative way by taking away some of the best underlying themes of the story, making Goku more generic by ironically making him less generic.