Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by theherodjl » Thu May 28, 2020 11:48 am

SSJgogeto wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 10:15 am
But that Trunks was way stronger than a SS3.
Exactly. In both continuities, Future Trunks stated he was going to unleash his full power after a brief spar but only in the anime did Goku halt Trunks' assault with SSJ3. If we presume that Trunks was the same strength in either instance then Goku clearly is ahead in the anime.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri May 29, 2020 12:08 am

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:28 am
Had they kept that power shown in RoF.... with all this training thus far... In just their base(Godly empowered) they could prob defeat Omega imo.

Their base forms atm are probably SS2 - SS3 from the Buu saga & even that's a stretch when u have so many inconsistent shit happening every arc. (Anime)

To me, it appears their base power is increasing... But just barely. Their forms, however have increased by a lot.

Maybe that's why Vegeta said they reached their limit. Prob talking about their base form... As their God forms have shown crazy increase in strength.
Assuming Goku and Vegeta's bases are only where they were in the Buu arc creates far more inconsistencies than there actually are. And there was no retcon after RoF.

There's nothing inconsistent about their base forms in the anime, people only assume that there inconsistent because they simply don't like the idea of the current base Saiyan's being > all of Z so they assume it isn't true without any proof, and they simply can wrap around their heads of Goku & Vegeta ever holding back sometimes.

Transformsations don't change in power, the people who use them do. That's how transformations in DB have always worked: they are simply multipliers of a fighter's growing base (the multipliers don't change), not isolated sets of power.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:08 am
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:28 am
Had they kept that power shown in RoF.... with all this training thus far... In just their base(Godly empowered) they could prob defeat Omega imo.

Their base forms atm are probably SS2 - SS3 from the Buu saga & even that's a stretch when u have so many inconsistent shit happening every arc. (Anime)

To me, it appears their base power is increasing... But just barely. Their forms, however have increased by a lot.

Maybe that's why Vegeta said they reached their limit. Prob talking about their base form... As their God forms have shown crazy increase in strength.
Assuming Goku and Vegeta's bases are only where they were in the Buu arc creates far more inconsistencies than there actually are. And there was no retcon after RoF.

There's nothing inconsistent about their base forms in the anime, people only assume that there inconsistent because they simply don't like the idea of the current base Saiyan's being > all of Z so they assume it isn't true without any proof, and they simply can wrap around their heads of Goku & Vegeta ever holding back sometimes.

Transformsations don't change in power, the people who use them do. That's how transformations in DB have always worked: they are simply multipliers of a fighter's growing base (the multipliers don't change), not isolated sets of power.
How was there no retcon? Yes there is a lot of inconsistencies in the anime. You're telling me Base Goku can't break free from that one bum... Has to use SSB to break free.

18 casually lifted that gravity guy with one arm... Assuming Frieza's multiplier is still the same... Base Goku(RoF) should be Vegito level at least.

Even Piccolo looked more impressive than Base Goku in U6 tournament... How do u go from battering SS3 Gotenks in base to needing to use SS2 on Trunks who not too long ago was struggling with Dabura 🤦🏻‍♂️

Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar. This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time.

Goku having a hard time with those dogs despise them being like SS2 Buu saga tier at best if we compare basil vs Good Buu who was as strong as SS2 Pre Majin Vegeta at best. You think someone like Vegito(Buu saga)would have a hard time with those 3 fodder? He'd clobber all of them no matter their team work.

Regular Base Saiyan's(DBS) get slaughtered in GT.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri May 29, 2020 5:41 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:08 am
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:28 am
Had they kept that power shown in RoF.... with all this training thus far... In just their base(Godly empowered) they could prob defeat Omega imo.

Their base forms atm are probably SS2 - SS3 from the Buu saga & even that's a stretch when u have so many inconsistent shit happening every arc. (Anime)

To me, it appears their base power is increasing... But just barely. Their forms, however have increased by a lot.

Maybe that's why Vegeta said they reached their limit. Prob talking about their base form... As their God forms have shown crazy increase in strength.
Assuming Goku and Vegeta's bases are only where they were in the Buu arc creates far more inconsistencies than there actually are. And there was no retcon after RoF.

There's nothing inconsistent about their base forms in the anime, people only assume that there inconsistent because they simply don't like the idea of the current base Saiyan's being > all of Z so they assume it isn't true without any proof, and they simply can wrap around their heads of Goku & Vegeta ever holding back sometimes.

Transformsations don't change in power, the people who use them do. That's how transformations in DB have always worked: they are simply multipliers of a fighter's growing base (the multipliers don't change), not isolated sets of power.
How was there no retcon? Yes there is a lot of inconsistencies in the anime. You're telling me Base Goku can't break free from that one bum... Has to use SSB to break free.

18 casually lifted that gravity guy with one arm... Assuming Frieza's multiplier is still the same... Base Goku(RoF) should be Vegito level at least.

Even Piccolo looked more impressive than Base Goku in U6 tournament... How do u go from battering SS3 Gotenks in base to needing to use SS2 on Trunks who not too long ago was struggling with Dabura 🤦🏻‍♂️

Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar. This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time.

Goku having a hard time with those dogs despise them being like SS2 Buu saga tier at best if we compare basil vs Good Buu who was as strong as SS2 Pre Majin Vegeta at best. You think someone like Vegito(Buu saga)would have a hard time with those 3 fodder? He'd clobber all of them no matter their team work.

Regular Base Saiyan's(DBS) get slaughtered in GT.
There are way, way too many false assumptions and fallacies in your post bro lmao.

1. What bum are you talking about? You are making a baseless assumption about that character's power when there's nothing to go off of.

2.ToP A18 (in the anime) is WAY above her Z self (especially after the Ribrianne fight), so that's a weak argument there.

3. 1st off, U6 arc Piccolo looked way worse than Base Goku/Vegeta did in that arc. He couldn't even finish off a fatigued Frost, so that goes against your argument.

And Future Trunks fighting Future Dabura was over a decade before he even met Goku Black (closer to Z chronologically), so he obviously wasn't at that same level he was at the start of the Black arc (logically).

4. "Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar."

Goku obviously wasn't serious with Roshi in that episode bro, just look at Goku when he's fighting him lmao. And no, Goku's aura was present.

"This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time."

This actually goes against your entire argument lmao. If they don't give a damn then they wouldn't bother with a power retcon at all.

5. Your Fat Buu argument is yet another fallacy.

ToP arc Buu >>>>>> Z Buu. This was flat out stated and shown in the anime itself during the recruitment period. You entire argument is based on the false assumption Buu hasn't changed in power since Z.

DBS Base Goku/Vegeta would easily solo GT, because BoG SSG Goku would solo GT and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that since RoF in just their base forms thanks to Whis' training. Only GT stand would deny this. There was no retcon, you only think there was because you simply don't like the idea of them being that strong (despite all the proof).

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri May 29, 2020 6:12 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:41 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:08 am


Assuming Goku and Vegeta's bases are only where they were in the Buu arc creates far more inconsistencies than there actually are. And there was no retcon after RoF.

There's nothing inconsistent about their base forms in the anime, people only assume that there inconsistent because they simply don't like the idea of the current base Saiyan's being > all of Z so they assume it isn't true without any proof, and they simply can wrap around their heads of Goku & Vegeta ever holding back sometimes.

Transformsations don't change in power, the people who use them do. That's how transformations in DB have always worked: they are simply multipliers of a fighter's growing base (the multipliers don't change), not isolated sets of power.
How was there no retcon? Yes there is a lot of inconsistencies in the anime. You're telling me Base Goku can't break free from that one bum... Has to use SSB to break free.

18 casually lifted that gravity guy with one arm... Assuming Frieza's multiplier is still the same... Base Goku(RoF) should be Vegito level at least.

Even Piccolo looked more impressive than Base Goku in U6 tournament... How do u go from battering SS3 Gotenks in base to needing to use SS2 on Trunks who not too long ago was struggling with Dabura 🤦🏻‍♂️

Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar. This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time.

Goku having a hard time with those dogs despise them being like SS2 Buu saga tier at best if we compare basil vs Good Buu who was as strong as SS2 Pre Majin Vegeta at best. You think someone like Vegito(Buu saga)would have a hard time with those 3 fodder? He'd clobber all of them no matter their team work.

Regular Base Saiyan's(DBS) get slaughtered in GT.
There are way, way too many false assumptions and fallacies in your post bro lmao.

1. What bum are you talking about? You are making a baseless assumption about that character's power when there's nothing to go off of.

2.ToP A18 (in the anime) is WAY above her Z self (especially after the Ribrianne fight), so that's a weak argument there.

3. 1st off, U6 arc Piccolo looked way worse than Base Goku/Vegeta did in that arc. He couldn't even finish off a fatigued Frost, so that goes against your argument.

And Future Trunks fighting Future Dabura was over a decade before he even met Goku Black (closer to Z chronologically), so he obviously wasn't at that same level he was at the start of the Black arc (logically).

4. "Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar."

Goku obviously wasn't serious with Roshi in that episode bro, just look at Goku when he's fighting him lmao. And no, Goku's aura was present.

"This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time."

This actually goes against your entire argument lmao. If they don't give a damn then they wouldn't bother with a power retcon at all.

5. Your Fat Buu argument is yet another fallacy.

ToP arc Buu >>>>>> Z Buu. This was flat out stated and shown in the anime itself during the recruitment period. You entire argument is based on the false assumption Buu hasn't changed in power since Z.

DBS Base Goku/Vegeta would easily solo GT, because BoG SSG Goku would solo GT and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that since RoF in just their base forms thanks to Whis' training. Only GT stand would deny this. There was no retcon, you only think there was because you simply don't like the idea of them being that strong (despite all the proof).


Show me where it was stated Good Buu increased in power? If u can do that ur good... If not that's head cannon from your part. During his spar with Goku... Goku only mentioned he increased his speed, not power.

The fact he had trouble with those 3 wolf fodder means that wasn't beyond God base. Drugged Basil was only relative to Buu... Before that he was a lot weaker & Buu is only pre Majin SS2 Buu saga level.

Also show me where it's stated 18 is Way stronger than in Z? Ribrianne is dog shit fodder... SS Goku & Vegeta couldn't even one shot the dogs & where even swapping hands with them.

Oh & I'm talking about the bum that choked Goku out & used SSB to break free what kinda weak shit is that lol.

The fact Goku couldn't break free from that gravity guy hug... Yet 18 casually lifts him with one arm lol doesn't that tell u something? U telling me 18 is above Buu saga Vegito?

The only Base that could make it far into GT would be Goku Black. U telling me 18 is SSG ++ tier now? Telling u this shit is getting ridiculous.

It's like the SS multipliers are garbage. Barely any increase. How do u swap hands in base & yet turn SS & can't stomp like in Z where a 30 - 40% gap really meant something.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri May 29, 2020 7:33 pm

Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:07 pm
Are you serious lmao?

DBS base Saiyans (after BoG for the anime & after the ToP for the manga) would easily solo all of GT. Its not even a debate.

No one in GT has feats and/or statements that puts them anywhere near the high-tier nor even mid-tier fighters of Super.
While thinking Super characters are stronger is fine, thinking base Goku/Vegeta could ever beat Omega Shenron is just dumb and ridiculous. Even if they are much stronger than their GT counterparts, they would need at least SSJB for that (and that is in 2vs1 fight) considering Omega was still able to survive fight against Gogeta SSJ4 and that's huge feat. Base Gogeta in DBS Broly was much stronger than SSJB Goku/Vegeta, let alone SSJB Gogeta. Now imagine the same kind of difference for GT Gogeta. There is no possibility any non-fused DBS character (except for Zeno, Daishinkan and some gods of destruction or angels and maybe UI Goku) could be a threat to Gogeta SSJ4 in raw power.

Not to even mention how you think base saiyans after BoG in anime are anywhere near even mid-tier GT characters. Goku needed god forms to one shot Ultimate Gohan after few days of training. They are nothing without god forms compared to GT non-SSJ4 forms, since GT instead of relying on transformations decided to boost base forms a lot instead, especially after Baby saga. Base Goku at this point already surpassed Majuub who probably could easily take down Z Vegito, at least in his base form. And i don't see DBS Goku/Vegeta in their base forms, at least until late DBS, compete against that power. There is no such thing as "saiyan beyond god" in anime where SSJG is their base form. Everything in Super simply denies that.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SSJgogeto » Fri May 29, 2020 7:50 pm

IMO SS God Goku can solo the GTverse without effort.
theherodjl wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 11:48 am
Exactly. In both continuities, Future Trunks stated he was going to unleash his full power after a brief spar but only in the anime did Goku halt Trunks' assault with SSJ3. If we presume that Trunks was the same strength in either instance then Goku clearly is ahead in the anime.
While I think that Trunks in the manga is more powerful than in the anime, this interpretation is also interesting.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri May 29, 2020 9:12 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:12 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 5:41 pm
Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 12:54 am


How was there no retcon? Yes there is a lot of inconsistencies in the anime. You're telling me Base Goku can't break free from that one bum... Has to use SSB to break free.

18 casually lifted that gravity guy with one arm... Assuming Frieza's multiplier is still the same... Base Goku(RoF) should be Vegito level at least.

Even Piccolo looked more impressive than Base Goku in U6 tournament... How do u go from battering SS3 Gotenks in base to needing to use SS2 on Trunks who not too long ago was struggling with Dabura 🤦🏻‍♂️

Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar. This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time.

Goku having a hard time with those dogs despise them being like SS2 Buu saga tier at best if we compare basil vs Good Buu who was as strong as SS2 Pre Majin Vegeta at best. You think someone like Vegito(Buu saga)would have a hard time with those 3 fodder? He'd clobber all of them no matter their team work.

Regular Base Saiyan's(DBS) get slaughtered in GT.
There are way, way too many false assumptions and fallacies in your post bro lmao.

1. What bum are you talking about? You are making a baseless assumption about that character's power when there's nothing to go off of.

2.ToP A18 (in the anime) is WAY above her Z self (especially after the Ribrianne fight), so that's a weak argument there.

3. 1st off, U6 arc Piccolo looked way worse than Base Goku/Vegeta did in that arc. He couldn't even finish off a fatigued Frost, so that goes against your argument.

And Future Trunks fighting Future Dabura was over a decade before he even met Goku Black (closer to Z chronologically), so he obviously wasn't at that same level he was at the start of the Black arc (logically).

4. "Also how is he not trying against Roshi? His Aura is flared up & there's no sign of holding back or just a simple spar."

Goku obviously wasn't serious with Roshi in that episode bro, just look at Goku when he's fighting him lmao. And no, Goku's aura was present.

"This show is for kids, toei doesn't give a damn about scaling most of the time."

This actually goes against your entire argument lmao. If they don't give a damn then they wouldn't bother with a power retcon at all.

5. Your Fat Buu argument is yet another fallacy.

ToP arc Buu >>>>>> Z Buu. This was flat out stated and shown in the anime itself during the recruitment period. You entire argument is based on the false assumption Buu hasn't changed in power since Z.

DBS Base Goku/Vegeta would easily solo GT, because BoG SSG Goku would solo GT and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that since RoF in just their base forms thanks to Whis' training. Only GT stand would deny this. There was no retcon, you only think there was because you simply don't like the idea of them being that strong (despite all the proof).


Show me where it was stated Good Buu increased in power? If u can do that ur good... If not that's head cannon from your part. During his spar with Goku... Goku only mentioned he increased his speed, not power.

The fact he had trouble with those 3 wolf fodder means that wasn't beyond God base. Drugged Basil was only relative to Buu... Before that he was a lot weaker & Buu is only pre Majin SS2 Buu saga level.

Also show me where it's stated 18 is Way stronger than in Z? Ribrianne is dog shit fodder... SS Goku & Vegeta couldn't even one shot the dogs & where even swapping hands with them.

Oh & I'm talking about the bum that choked Goku out & used SSB to break free what kinda weak shit is that lol.

The fact Goku couldn't break free from that gravity guy hug... Yet 18 casually lifts him with one arm lol doesn't that tell u something? U telling me 18 is above Buu saga Vegito?

The only Base that could make it far into GT would be Goku Black. U telling me 18 is SSG ++ tier now? Telling u this shit is getting ridiculous.

It's like the SS multipliers are garbage. Barely any increase. How do u swap hands in base & yet turn SS & can't stomp like in Z where a 30 - 40% gap really meant something.
The only one making headcanon is you.

- Fat Buu was flat out stated to have gotten stronger than before by Goku (he didn't just mention speed, source please) when he went to go visit him in the recruitment episode. He would have never been considered for the ToP if he didn't.

- If 17 can break the BoG barrier then why can't 18 (who never stopped training) in the anime?

- About the Wolf brothers, Ribrianne, lesser Pride Troopers, etc: anyone who scales to a serious Post-BoG Base Goku/Vegeta is by default above Z. Just because its bad writing (not denying that lol) doesn't mean it isnt a fact. By that standard, much of the OG manga isn't valid either lmao.

- "It's like the SS multipliers are garbage. Barely any increase. How do u swap hands in base & yet turn SS & can't stomp like in Z where a 30 - 40% gap really meant something."

This is a nonsensical complaint. Transformation multipliers don't change, the people who use them do.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Sadala Elite » Fri May 29, 2020 9:22 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:33 pm
Sadala Elite wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 12:07 pm
Are you serious lmao?

DBS base Saiyans (after BoG for the anime & after the ToP for the manga) would easily solo all of GT. Its not even a debate.

No one in GT has feats and/or statements that puts them anywhere near the high-tier nor even mid-tier fighters of Super.
While thinking Super characters are stronger is fine, thinking base Goku/Vegeta could ever beat Omega Shenron is just dumb and ridiculous. Even if they are much stronger than their GT counterparts, they would need at least SSJB for that (and that is in 2vs1 fight) considering Omega was still able to survive fight against Gogeta SSJ4 and that's huge feat. Base Gogeta in DBS Broly was much stronger than SSJB Goku/Vegeta, let alone SSJB Gogeta. Now imagine the same kind of difference for GT Gogeta. There is no possibility any non-fused DBS character (except for Zeno, Daishinkan and some gods of destruction or angels and maybe UI Goku) could be a threat to Gogeta SSJ4 in raw power.

Not to even mention how you think base saiyans after BoG in anime are anywhere near even mid-tier GT characters. Goku needed god forms to one shot Ultimate Gohan after few days of training. They are nothing without god forms compared to GT non-SSJ4 forms, since GT instead of relying on transformations decided to boost base forms a lot instead, especially after Baby saga. Base Goku at this point already surpassed Majuub who probably could easily take down Z Vegito, at least in his base form. And i don't see DBS Goku/Vegeta in their base forms, at least until late DBS, compete against that power. There is no such thing as "saiyan beyond god" in anime where SSJG is their base form. Everything in Super simply denies that.
- You are assuming that GT and Super are relative in power when there's no evidence for that.

- Your Gohan argument doesn't work because you are assuming that ToP Gohan = Buu arc Gohan

- Based on feats and statements, no one in GT even compares to BoG SSG Goku (Omega Shenron can only destroy U7 via chain reaction like Buuhan, he didn't threaten its existence with just punches like SSG Goku did).

- Saiyan Beyond God is a fact whether you like it or not (Toei even made a guide explaining during RoF). And no, Goku didn't absorb the SSG form itself into his base, he merely absorbed the power he had at the time with the form into his base (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG).

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Fri May 29, 2020 10:05 pm

Sadala Elite

All Goku said was Amazing Buu! Your faster & you've got that power.... Not you've gotten way stronger.

17 unlike 18 was hinted to being a threat in the manga & has shown feats to back that up. If 18 was that strong wouldn't she show similar improvement to 17 if u said she kept training right?

Unless shown or stated in the series... It's just you assuming she's gotten that strong just because 17 got that treatment.

Let's just agree to disagree before this thread becomes hell lol.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Fri May 29, 2020 10:08 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 6:12 pm
Also show me where it's stated 18 is Way stronger than in Z? Ribrianne is dog shit fodder... SS Goku & Vegeta couldn't even one shot the dogs & where even swapping hands with them.
Ummm....... With all Respects to fellow Fandom, that is not the case.

Goku, Vegeta and Android 17 all went up against Ribrianne and none of them took her out. Heck both SSJ-Vegeta and 17 admitted she was impressive when fighting her before the show got wonky with power leveling later on. Heck it took Android 18 achieving a whole new level of power that I am sure is above Z Tiers to defeat Ribrianne and it still took 17 in team-up with her to take her out at the end.

Heck She got a shout out by Goku in Super: Broly as one of the Fighters that Impressed him.

Just cause a character is not UI/Royal Blue/Jiren tier does not make them worthless, Power is still impressive not matter at what level yet still Ribrianne had impressive matches that impressed Goku, Vegeta, Android 17 and 18, impressive power level and is still one of the more talked about and used characters from the ToP especially in the Games.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by theherodjl » Fri May 29, 2020 11:00 pm

SSJgogeto wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 7:50 pm
While I think that Trunks in the manga is more powerful than in the anime, this interpretation is also interesting.
According to Vegeta, SSJ2 Trunks after powering up was almost on par with SSJ3 Goku: such a statement offers the possibility that manga Goku using SSJ3 could have still stopped Trunks' assault albeit with moderate difficulty. However, if anime Goku is above his manga counterpart by any significant amount then that means that Trunks could very well be the same strength or at least close in both continuities.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by theherodjl » Fri May 29, 2020 11:15 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:05 pm
Sadala Elite

All Goku said was Amazing Buu! Your faster & you've got that power.... Not you've gotten way stronger.

17 unlike 18 was hinted to being a threat in the manga & has shown feats to back that up. If 18 was that strong wouldn't she show similar improvement to 17 if u said she kept training right?

Unless shown or stated in the series... It's just you assuming she's gotten that strong just because 17 got that treatment.

Let's just agree to disagree before this thread becomes hell lol.
Characters who become faster are stronger. Speed & strength in DB are directly linked with the exception of SSJG3 & Zamasu's muscle/body growth limiting speed despite greater power.

18 might not necessarily train to 17's degree or have quite as much potential as him but 18 definitely has become much stronger. She's leagues above what she was in Z to take down Ribranne who was pulling her weight against Vegeta to an extent.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sat May 30, 2020 7:57 am

Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:22 pm
- You are assuming that GT and Super are relative in power when there's no evidence for that.

- Your Gohan argument doesn't work because you are assuming that ToP Gohan = Buu arc Gohan

- Based on feats and statements, no one in GT even compares to BoG SSG Goku (Omega Shenron can only destroy U7 via chain reaction like Buuhan, he didn't threaten its existence with just punches like SSG Goku did).

- Saiyan Beyond God is a fact whether you like it or not (Toei even made a guide explaining during RoF). And no, Goku didn't absorb the SSG form itself into his base, he merely absorbed the power he had at the time with the form into his base (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG).
I didn't say ToP Gohan = Buu arc Gohan, but ask yourself, how strong he could become in few days? We are talking about a guy who barely turned SSJ after year of not training. I believe he got stronger, but not much. It was never said he got much stronger anyway. I remember Piccolo saying Gohan awakened the same power he had against Buu which means he was exactly as strong as in Buu saga when he reached Ultimate for the first time in DBS. And then he trained only a bit. And since Goku needed to go beyond base to beat Gohan it means DBS Gohan solos all of GT as well? Damn, GT is so weak that Tagoma-level weakling needs only few days to beat Omega Shenron i guess. The same of course goes for Buu who trained for few weeks? He has beaten base Goku, the guy who one shots GT. Come on, seriously?

Ahh, of course, the classic universe shaking feat, the one thing everyone mentions despite nothing close to that ever happening again, even though battles like Vegito SSJB vs Fused Zamasu took place. Not to mention Old Kai (or someone else, i don't remember) explained it was because of some perfect fist clashes. SSG Goku never had power to do such thing by himself.

You see, when Goku struggles against Gohan in DBS, it means Gohan got much stronger. If Goku struggles against let's say Ribrianne who was beaten by Android 18, it means Android 18 got much stronger, even though it was never ever said she got any stronger. People do everything to not downplay DBS characters in any way. It's always the other character that got much stronger, it's never Goku simply being weak because well, he shook entire universe. Base power levels in GT were huge, especially Goku. His base power even became a meme as he was getting ridiculous boosts in every next arc, even during arcs and unlike DBS, it was clearly noticable.

For Super, because of its dumb writing, you can't even tell if Goku got much stronger since BoG arc. No one in Super is even impressed when weak characters make Goku struggle. DBS 17 was able to compete against SSJB Goku and what was Goku's reaction? None. 17 simply got stronger, that's it. That doesn't tell how stronger he became and how strong exactly Goku is. Meanwhile in GT, #17 being able to compete against base Vegeta was enough for Vegeta to say 17 "powered up beyond belief". This not only proves Vegeta is way stronger than before, but also that 17 is way stronger. "Beyond belief" is key word here.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Sadala Elite » Sat May 30, 2020 8:30 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 7:57 am
Sadala Elite wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:22 pm
- You are assuming that GT and Super are relative in power when there's no evidence for that.

- Your Gohan argument doesn't work because you are assuming that ToP Gohan = Buu arc Gohan

- Based on feats and statements, no one in GT even compares to BoG SSG Goku (Omega Shenron can only destroy U7 via chain reaction like Buuhan, he didn't threaten its existence with just punches like SSG Goku did).

- Saiyan Beyond God is a fact whether you like it or not (Toei even made a guide explaining during RoF). And no, Goku didn't absorb the SSG form itself into his base, he merely absorbed the power he had at the time with the form into his base (that's why he could use SSG again after BoG).
I didn't say ToP Gohan = Buu arc Gohan, but ask yourself, how strong he could become in few days? We are talking about a guy who barely turned SSJ after year of not training. I believe he got stronger, but not much. It was never said he got much stronger anyway. I remember Piccolo saying Gohan awakened the same power he had against Buu which means he was exactly as strong as in Buu saga when he reached Ultimate for the first time in DBS. And then he trained only a bit. And since Goku needed to go beyond base to beat Gohan it means DBS Gohan solos all of GT as well? Damn, GT is so weak that Tagoma-level weakling needs only few days to beat Omega Shenron i guess. The same of course goes for Buu who trained for few weeks? He has beaten base Goku, the guy who one shots GT. Come on, seriously?

Ahh, of course, the classic universe shaking feat, the one thing everyone mentions despite nothing close to that ever happening again, even though battles like Vegito SSJB vs Fused Zamasu took place. Not to mention Old Kai (or someone else, i don't remember) explained it was because of some perfect fist clashes. SSG Goku never had power to do such thing by himself.

You see, when Goku struggles against Gohan in DBS, it means Gohan got much stronger. If Goku struggles against let's say Ribrianne who was beaten by Android 18, it means Android 18 got much stronger, even though it was never ever said she got any stronger. People do everything to not downplay DBS characters in any way. It's always the other character that got much stronger, it's never Goku simply being weak because well, he shook entire universe. Base power levels in GT were huge, especially Goku. His base power even became a meme as he was getting ridiculous boosts in every next arc, even during arcs and unlike DBS, it was clearly noticable.

For Super, because of its dumb writing, you can't even tell if Goku got much stronger since BoG arc. No one in Super is even impressed when weak characters make Goku struggle. DBS 17 was able to compete against SSJB Goku and what was Goku's reaction? None. 17 simply got stronger, that's it. That doesn't tell how stronger he became and how strong exactly Goku is. Meanwhile in GT, #17 being able to compete against base Vegeta was enough for Vegeta to say 17 "powered up beyond belief". This not only proves Vegeta is way stronger than before, but also that 17 is way stronger. "Beyond belief" is key word here.
- Your entire post is simply the "its bad writing, so it doesn't count" fallacy.

- ToP arc Gohan was flat out stated to have gotten even stronger after the Piccolo fight, deal with it lol.

- BoG wasnt the only time we got Universe level feats and statements in Super (ex. Infinite Zamasu corrupting the entire multiverse and spreading to other timelines, Suppressed Jiren being confirmed stronger than that Zamasu, UI Omen Goku shaking the Infinite World of Void just by existing, GoD Toppo nearly destroying said Void with a casual Hakai, Kefla being stated to be able to one-shot a universe, etc). So the "its just an outlier" argument completely fails. And no one in GT has anything close to those feats and statements.

And no, you're wrong. Old Kai flat out said that it was the sheer power of SSG Goku's and Beerus' punches that accidentally (which speaks volumes) caused does waves, and they even explained why we don't see those waves another in that same fight. You are in denial.

- Its pure headcanon to assume Goku ever got weaker Post-BoG, considering all the training and power boost he got afterwards. People just don't like the idea of these characters being that strong so they deny it.

- "People do everything to not downplay DBS characters in any way"

People like yourself and others in this very forum do this all the time, what are you talking about?

- "You see, when Goku struggles against Gohan in DBS, it means Gohan got much stronger. If Goku struggles against let's say Ribrianne who was beaten by Android 18, it means Android 18 got much stronger, even though it was never ever said she got any stronger."

That's exactly what it means rather you like it or not, and no, Android 18 WAS stated to have gotten stronger.

- "For Super, because of its dumb writing, you can't even tell if Goku got much stronger since BoG arc. No one in Super is even impressed when weak characters make Goku struggle. DBS 17 was able to compete against SSJB Goku and what was Goku's reaction? None. 17 simply got stronger, that's it. That doesn't tell how stronger he became and how strong exactly Goku is."

This is clearly false and you're showcasing a complete lack of attention span. Other characters (including Goku himself) and even the narrator ARE impressed when others match up to Goku in any form in Super. And feats speak for themselves, the fact that Android 17 could put pressure on a Post-Black arc SSB Goku DOES automatically tell you how strong he got. Its common sense.

"Meanwhile in GT, #17 being able to compete against base Vegeta was enough for Vegeta to say 17 "powered up beyond belief". This not only proves Vegeta is way stronger than before, but also that 17 is way stronger. "Beyond belief" is key word here."

This is a hypocritical argument that I've already debunked above lmao.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun May 31, 2020 4:39 am

Assuming you mean a split universe thing— it's no contest, really.

It's been stated in some guidebooks (not the most authoritative source, but better than anything else we have) that SS4 Goku was about on par with Super Vegetto.

Presuming that Goku and Vegeta absorbed their godly powers into their base forms, they could crush the GT verse without question.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by p-hyvo » Sun May 31, 2020 11:52 am

In base definitely not.
I have base Goku from the Broly movie around the same level he was at the start of gt, and manga Goku Is much weaker than that
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun May 31, 2020 3:25 pm

Yuli Ban wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 4:39 am
It's been stated in some guidebooks (not the most authoritative source, but better than anything else we have) that SS4 Goku was about on par with Super Vegetto.
Image

Yeah, definitely on par, lol.
There is one thing more authoritative than any other source, especially non-authoritative one, and that is anime and its statements that easily put early Goku SSJ4 way above Super Vegito, let alone late SSJ4. And let me remind you, it was never said Goku SSJ4 is on par with DBZ Vegito. The only thing that was said in that magazine was that when Goku and Vegeta fuse and turn SSJ, they might be even stronger than SSJ4. So if we really want to include that, it would mean SSJ4 Goku is on par with hypothetical GT Vegito, not the one from Z who was left behind after Baby took Vegeta's body.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun May 31, 2020 3:35 pm

yes, if I recall correct, it was implied the SS4 transformation being comparable to Potara Fusion.
As in: they both give the same multiplier of power-up.

Except GT Goku is much stronger than Z Goku, so...

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun May 31, 2020 6:15 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 3:35 pm
yes, if I recall correct, it was implied the SS4 transformation being comparable to Potara Fusion.
As in: they both give the same multiplier of power-up.

Except GT Goku is much stronger than Z Goku, so...
Exactly my point. It was an article about transformations overall, not a description of DBZ Vegito. There was a section of potara fusion which said potara + SSJ gives boost comparable or even stronger than SSJ4. I mean series itself proves SSJ4 Goku in Baby saga was stronger than Z Vegito.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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