Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by theherodjl » Sun May 31, 2020 6:16 pm

In the interests of not letting this thread sidetrack towards a "did the Perfect Files refer to a Z or GT Vegetto?" debate, I'm just going to say that I'm willing to bet that the statement simply is vague and possibly erroneous to begin with. The idea was to give a comparison to another powerful fighter and Vegetto just happened to be the last OP Saiyan to appear and thus, they made a general statement that SSJ4 boosted Goku to a similar, crazy level like how fusion did for Goku & Vegeta. I don't think the intention by Shueisha was to have Vegetto exactly equal SSJ4 Goku since there never was official power levels for either character so they just intentionally made a blind estimation on their comparison.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun May 31, 2020 9:59 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 3:25 pm
Yuli Ban wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 4:39 am It's been stated in some guidebooks (not the most authoritative source, but better than anything else we have) that SS4 Goku was about on par with Super Vegetto.
Image

Yeah, definitely on par, lol.
There is one thing more authoritative than any other source, especially non-authoritative one, and that is anime and its statements that easily put early Goku SSJ4 way above Super Vegito, let alone late SSJ4. And let me remind you, it was never said Goku SSJ4 is on par with DBZ Vegito. The only thing that was said in that magazine was that when Goku and Vegeta fuse and turn SSJ, they might be even stronger than SSJ4. So if we really want to include that, it would mean SSJ4 Goku is on par with hypothetical GT Vegito, not the one from Z who was left behind after Baby took Vegeta's body.
Right, that's what I was thinking of. All I recalled was that it was implied that Vegetto was a "GT-tier" character; didn't take into account that it meant GT Vegetto at that.

Either way, it illustrates the point that power scaling (already an incredibly arbitrary thing) becomes entirely incongruent between late Z, GT, and Super. SS4 Goku is stronger than Z Super Vegetto and on par with a hypothetical GT Super Vegetto.

Yet as far as I can recall, there was nothing in GT stating that Son Goku was of a truly godly level of power other than when he achieves SS4. It was always in comparison to what we saw in Z. Super Saiyan God alone, just from Battle of Gods, is so blatantly beyond the super-powered Potara fusion in Z that there's not much chance that SS4 Goku— early or late— is anywhere close to level with it. Considering Goku absorbed and "learned" that power from then on, we can basically already consider the thread resolved right then and there. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:20 pm

If Base Goku equals his ssj God from BOG at the minimum they can make it through GT.

Super has some crazy scaling when they want to become weaker characters last longer againts stronger characters. The trio of danger looked like they would have been a match for buu saga ssj3 Goku but then TOP Goku doesn't one shot.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:02 pm

Short answer is yes, if you go by feats...

Ssjg Goku and Beerus were capable of destroying the universe while the only characters capable of that in GT were the strongest characters in the Shadow Dragons arc.

If you go by multipliers and/or power levels then Super's characters get stomped by most GT characters after the Baby arc or possibly the Super 17 arc, if they're lucky, but the strongest Shadow Dragons arc characters are out of the question...

It was stated that base BoG Goku, prior to ssjg, couldn't even beat (Namek) Frieza and we've been shown that even ssjb doesn't grant a high enough multiplier to match base form fusions. Even though ssj Goku's power level is stronger than (BoG) ssjg it wouldn't make a difference. GT Goku started almost 400x stronger than base BoG Goku and got ssj 4, which we know surpasses base fusion multipliers. Not to mention GT Goku got energy from other characters after the Baby arc as well.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:09 pm

Now I wonder how much stronger Baby would have been with god ki, angel training, spirit fission and hakai powers.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:13 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:02 pm Short answer is yes, if you go by feats...

Ssjg Goku and Beerus were capable of destroying the universe while the only characters capable of that in GT were the strongest characters in the Shadow Dragons arc.

If you go by multipliers and/or power levels then Super's characters get stomped by most GT characters after the Baby arc or possibly the Super 17 arc, if they're lucky, but the strongest Shadow Dragons arc characters are out of the question...

It was stated that base BoG Goku, prior to ssjg, couldn't even beat (Namek) Frieza and we've been shown that even ssjb doesn't grant a high enough multiplier to match base form fusions. Even though ssj Goku's power level is stronger than (BoG) ssjg it wouldn't make a difference. GT Goku started almost 400x stronger than base BoG Goku and got ssj 4, which we know surpasses base fusion multipliers. Not to mention GT Goku got energy from other characters after the Baby arc as well.
That's because the fusion of God's is extremely high. The SSB multiplier takes Goku to higher than his SS4 self.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:13 am

That's because the fusion of God's is extremely high. The SSB multiplier takes Goku to higher than his SS4 self.
That doesn't seem to be the case. There's nothing that says ssjb's multiplier is higher than 4's. Nor is there anything that says fusion has a different multiplier in Super, when compared to DBZ. As far as we know fusion dance just equals potara now but Goku and Vegeta never used it in Z so that doesn't change much. After the Broly movie showed that ssjg and ssjb are weaker than base form fusions I can't see their multipliers being that high. The feats are there but the multipliers and power levels aren't.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:56 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:13 am
That's because the fusion of God's is extremely high. The SSB multiplier takes Goku to higher than his SS4 self.
That doesn't seem to be the case. There's nothing that says ssjb's multiplier is higher than 4's. Nor is there anything that says fusion has a different multiplier in Super, when compared to DBZ. As far as we know fusion dance just equals potara now but Goku and Vegeta never used it in Z so that doesn't change much. After the Broly movie showed that ssjg and ssjb are weaker than base form fusions I can't see their multipliers being that high. The feats are there but the multipliers and power levels aren't.
Fusion is most likely based on dormant power. All fusions have always been stronger than the highest form of the fusee but Goku thinks the God boost blows fusion out of the water.

4 doesn't have a multiplier it is just a potential unlock while God is superior to even old kai's potential unlock which goes beyond limits.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:01 pm

Fusion is most likely based on dormant power. All fusions have always been stronger than the highest form of the fusee but Goku thinks the God boost blows fusion out of the water.

4 doesn't have a multiplier it is just a potential unlock while God is superior to even old kai's potential unlock which goes beyond limits.
Goku never said fusion was weaker than ssjg. He said fusion couldn't beat Beerus and that was before he even knew much about ssjg at all. We know 4 has a multiplier because all ssj forms are power ups that multiply a character's power from their base forms. Ssj 3 was also stated to push a saiyan to their absolute limit but then 4 and ssjg came along and changed that limit.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:33 am

SoulSurj wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:01 pm
Fusion is most likely based on dormant power. All fusions have always been stronger than the highest form of the fusee but Goku thinks the God boost blows fusion out of the water.

4 doesn't have a multiplier it is just a potential unlock while God is superior to even old kai's potential unlock which goes beyond limits.
Goku never said fusion was weaker than ssjg. He said fusion couldn't beat Beerus and that was before he even knew much about ssjg at all. We know 4 has a multiplier because all ssj forms are power ups that multiply a character's power from their base forms. Ssj 3 was also stated to push a saiyan to their absolute limit but then 4 and ssjg came along and changed that limit.
Ss3 is said to be 4x, ss4 is never giving a multiplier. SsG is also the start of a saiyan's God potential not mortal potential.

Goku says even with fusion he wouldn't have a chance againts Beerus. As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.

God ritual>Fusion.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Jun 26, 2021 4:16 am

They stomp lmao. Goku and Vegeta absorbed the power of God in Base, which is already universal (as the battle between God Goku and 10% Beerus risked destroying the universe itself). Since then they've even made plenty of gains through training.

Meanwhile the only Universal character in GT is SS4 Gogeta, even Omega Shenron isn't since he needed a long time to destroy the universe and it was a slow corruptive process. That's not Universal, Universal is when you can blow up the Universe in one shot like Goku and Beerus were doing.

So current Base Goku and Vegeta would completely clear GT without too many problems.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:49 am

Ss3 is said to be 4x, ss4 is never giving a multiplier. SsG is also the start of a saiyan's God potential not mortal potential.

Goku says even with fusion he wouldn't have a chance againts Beerus. As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.

God ritual>Fusion.
Ssj 3 is 4x ssj 2, which means it's 400x a character's base form, and we already saw that ssjb isn't stronger than base form fusion so the ritual isn't stronger than fusion either.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:37 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:33 am As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.
he was wrong. Thus I wouldn't use it as valid information.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by TobyS » Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:30 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:49 am
Ss3 is said to be 4x, ss4 is never giving a multiplier. SsG is also the start of a saiyan's God potential not mortal potential.

Goku says even with fusion he wouldn't have a chance againts Beerus. As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.

God ritual>Fusion.
Ssj 3 is 4x ssj 2, which means it's 400x a character's base form, and we already saw that ssjb isn't stronger than base form fusion so the ritual isn't stronger than fusion either.
Only after god tier was opened up.
It fits with the common fan assumption base fusion is highest of fusees forms.
So Base Vegetto BoG is SS3 Goku tier and Base Gogeta is Goku Blue tier

I don't think Base Gogeta not being instakilled by Broly puts him too above Blue Goku and we don't know if Toriyama specified Base Gogeta, it seems like Toei bullshit like Goku cycling forms after Broly already beat Red Vegeta.
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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:02 pm

Only after god tier was opened up.
It fits with the common fan assumption base fusion is highest of fusees forms.
So Base Vegetto BoG is SS3 Goku tier and Base Gogeta is Goku Blue tier

I don't think Base Gogeta not being instakilled by Broly puts him too above Blue Goku and we don't know if Toriyama specified Base Gogeta, it seems like Toei bullshit like Goku cycling forms after Broly already beat Red Vegeta.
Well that fan assumption doesn't factor in other fusions. Fused Zamasu's power up from fusion was extremely low, despite Black having ssj Rose. In the manga base Vegito was able to blast fused Zamasu's arm off and in the anime ssjb Goku's full power injured him. Every fusion in the manga has a lower multiplier than their fusees best forms besides Vegito.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:48 pm

TobyS wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:30 pm So Base Vegetto BoG is SS3 Goku tier and Base Gogeta is Goku Blue tier
Also, in the manga Vegetto was able to inflict damages to Fused Zamasu in base.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:41 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:37 pm
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:33 am As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.
he was wrong. Thus I wouldn't use it as valid information.
He is not wrong, in fusion he had no chance, going Gkd he made Beerus have to power up.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:43 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:49 am
Ss3 is said to be 4x, ss4 is never giving a multiplier. SsG is also the start of a saiyan's God potential not mortal potential.

Goku says even with fusion he wouldn't have a chance againts Beerus. As a SSG he thinks he can beat a powered up Beerus.

God ritual>Fusion.
Ssj 3 is 4x ssj 2, which means it's 400x a character's base form, and we already saw that ssjb isn't stronger than base form fusion so the ritual isn't stronger than fusion either.
I know it's 4x ss2 and the ritual blows fusion out the water.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by SoulSurj » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:20 pm

I know it's 4x ss2 and the ritual blows fusion out the water.
Ssjg and ssjb have lower multipliers than base form fusion. All the ritual does is turn Goku into a ssjg and give him a power up but that power up is still lower than fusion because it's equal to ssjg, which has a lower multiplier than base form fusion.

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Re: Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:50 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:20 pm
I know it's 4x ss2 and the ritual blows fusion out the water.
Ssjg and ssjb have lower multipliers than base form fusion. All the ritual does is turn Goku into a ssjg and give him a power up but that power up is still lower than fusion because it's equal to ssjg, which has a lower multiplier than base form fusion.
Goku says fusing with Vegeta would do nothing to Beerus. Goku later thinks God can win and says God is a power that he never could have imagined.

Post God fusion> God ritual> Pre God fusion.

Base fusions are stronger than the strongest fusee's form.

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