Would Current Base Goku & Vegeta Make It Far In GT?

[SoulSurj]

Goku says fusing with Vegeta would do nothing to Beerus. Goku later thinks God can win and says God is a power that he never could have imagined.

Post God fusion> God ritual> Pre God fusion.

Base fusions are stronger than the strongest fusee's form.

Goku fought Beerus with ssjg but still lost. He thought it would beat Beerus and was 100% wrong.

He said ssjg was a power he never imagined achieving by himself, without the ritual, but then Vegeta did it by himself by the next arc so obviously it could've been done with better training.

There's no evidence to suggest that fusion's multiplier changed from the end of the Buu arc through Super. Ssjg and ssjb have been weaker than fusion, people just had misconceptions about their strength.

[sunsetshimmer]

Interesting to return to this topic. Base forms in DBS are nothing when you think about it. The same goes for any non-god transformation. Pre ToP Goku/Vegeta in base would probably beat base Rilldo at very best. Anything since Baby saga would stomp any non-god transformation of them really.

[Jack Bz]

Goku fought Beerus with ssjg but still lost. He thought it would beat Beerus and was 100% wrong.

I feel like you're not properly addressing the point here. It doesn't matter if Goku wins or loses to Beerus. He thought Vegito wouldn't be strong enough to beat Beerus, but doesn't have those same reservations about super saiyan god once he attains it. Therefore, whether he was right or wrong about being stronger than Beerus, Goku himself still thought that super saiyan god had a better chance. He loses because Beerus was stronger than anyone could guess.

[miguelnuva1]

Goku says fusing with Vegeta would do nothing to Beerus. Goku later thinks God can win and says God is a power that he never could have imagined.

Post God fusion> God ritual> Pre God fusion.

Base fusions are stronger than the strongest fusee's form.

Goku fought Beerus with ssjg but still lost. He thought it would beat Beerus and was 100% wrong.

He said ssjg was a power he never imagined achieving by himself, without the ritual, but then Vegeta did it by himself by the next arc so obviously it could've been done with better training.

There's no evidence to suggest that fusion's multiplier changed from the end of the Buu arc through Super. Ssjg and ssjb have been weaker than fusion, people just had misconceptions about their strength.

Fusion doesn't have a multiplier officially anything you put for it is your guess. I don't have a problem because what makes sense to me is the base power is determined by the highest power of the fusees.

The other points have been address by Jack BZ.

[SoulSurj]

I feel like you're not properly addressing the point here. It doesn't matter if Goku wins or loses to Beerus. He thought Vegito wouldn't be strong enough to beat Beerus, but doesn't have those same reservations about super saiyan god once he attains it. Therefore, whether he was right or wrong about being stronger than Beerus, Goku himself still thought that super saiyan god had a better chance. He loses because Beerus was stronger than anyone could guess.

I'm very clearly addressing the point but you and miguelnuva1 are choosing not to accept it...

Goku claimed fusion wouldn't beat Beerus so he didn't see a reason to use it. Instead... he took a chance with ssjg, a form he knew absolutely nothing about and had no choice but to use because Beerus was going to destroy the planet if Goku didn't hurry up and fight. The form made Goku stronger but there was no real comparison to fusion, at the time. Even if Goku thought ssjg was worth using over fusion he had absolutely no way of fully knowing until he was done using ssjg completely. The manga and the Broly movie showed us that base form fusion still has the higher multiplier. Even if we don't have an exact numerical value for fusion's multiplier we know...

Ssjg < Ssjb < Base Form Fusion

[SoulSurj]

Fusion doesn't have a multiplier officially anything you put for it is your guess. I don't have a problem because what makes sense to me is the base power is determined by the highest power of the fusees.

The other points have been address by Jack BZ.

Even if the base power is determined by the strongest form that doesn't mean that the strongest form's multiplier surpassed the original fusion's multiplier. Ssjg, ssjb, and fusion were all stronger than ssj 3 from the start. There's nothing that says fusion changed just because ssjg and ssjb were added. Base form fusion can have a higher multiplier than ssjg and ssjb but still be the same distance in power from ssj 3 that it originally was.

[miguelnuva1]

Fusion doesn't have a multiplier officially anything you put for it is your guess. I don't have a problem because what makes sense to me is the base power is determined by the highest power of the fusees.

The other points have been address by Jack BZ.

Even if the base power is determined by the strongest form that doesn't mean that the strongest form's multiplier surpassed the original fusion's multiplier. Ssjg, ssjb, and fusion were all stronger than ssj 3 from the start. There's nothing that says fusion changed just because ssjg and ssjb were added. Base form fusion can have a higher multiplier than ssjg and ssjb but still be the same distance in power from ssj 3 that it originally was.

Fusion doesn't change but the stronger the fusees the stronger the fusion.

The God ritual is a huge boost, SSG doesn't have a huge multiplier because Goku absorbed the power of God into himself.

Pre God fusion is weaker than the ritual. Post God fusion is stronger because more is being put into the fusion.

SIGNS multiplier is lower than fusion ONLY after the power of the ritual has been absorbed.

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta didn't get SSG through training, it's explicited at the end of BoG that Goku will have to help him do the ritual so he gets SSG as well, Goku agrees.

The point of saying Vegito won't do was to introduce a new, stronger form, that's also why Goku can't believe the power he has. That's how you introduce a groundbreaking new power. Supported by RoF, where a god-based Goku can beat up FF Freeza who in his first form was easily disposing of SS Gohan, rusty or not, he is at least Cell Games tier.
That's narrative 101, bobby says "A won't be enough but let's try B"... it doesn't matter if B isn't enough either, the point was B > A.

At the very, very least, seeing how quickly Goku discarded fusion and seeing the fight Beerus got, which he was pretty happy with, SSG = fusion. That's the least we can say about SSG and fusion, the worst case scenario for god is that it is equal to Vegito. Similar to what was said about SS4 and fusion in an official GT guide.

[SoulSurj]

Fusion doesn't change but the stronger the fusees the stronger the fusion.

The God ritual is a huge boost, SSG doesn't have a huge multiplier because Goku absorbed the power of God into himself.

Pre God fusion is weaker than the ritual. Post God fusion is stronger because more is being put into the fusion.

SIGNS multiplier is lower than fusion ONLY after the power of the ritual has been absorbed.

The fusions get stronger because they can access new transformations. The multiplier for fusion stays the same as it always is because it's the same fusion and same characters fusing. If you think base fusion gets stronger because the fusees get new forms then that means you think the fusion multiplier changes.

[SoulSurj]

Vegeta didn't get SSG through training, it's explicited at the end of BoG that Goku will have to help him do the ritual so he gets SSG as well, Goku agrees.

The point of saying Vegito won't do was to introduce a new, stronger form, that's also why Goku can't believe the power he has. That's how you introduce a groundbreaking new power. Supported by RoF, where a god-based Goku can beat up FF Freeza who in his first form was easily disposing of SS Gohan, rusty or not, he is at least Cell Games tier.
That's narrative 101, bobby says "A won't be enough but let's try B"... it doesn't matter if B isn't enough either, the point was B > A.

At the very, very least, seeing how quickly Goku discarded fusion and seeing the fight Beerus got, which he was pretty happy with, SSG = fusion. That's the least we can say about SSG and fusion, the worst case scenario for god is that it is equal to Vegito. Similar to what was said about SS4 and fusion in an official GT guide.

In RoF, when Vegeta turns ssjb for the first time Goku actually mentions that Vegeta got the power of ssjg without the ritual.

Saying that ssjg is equal to Vegito isn't even a worst case scenario. The writers basically did worse when they made ssjg and ssjb weaker than base form fusion. The jump between Buu arc Goku's base form and BoG Goku's base form was small and ssjg, with the ritual, would only have a ssjb level multiplier at best because ssjb is better than ssjg.

[Koitsukai]

Vegeta didn't get SSG through training, it's explicited at the end of BoG that Goku will have to help him do the ritual so he gets SSG as well, Goku agrees.

The point of saying Vegito won't do was to introduce a new, stronger form, that's also why Goku can't believe the power he has. That's how you introduce a groundbreaking new power. Supported by RoF, where a god-based Goku can beat up FF Freeza who in his first form was easily disposing of SS Gohan, rusty or not, he is at least Cell Games tier.
That's narrative 101, bobby says "A won't be enough but let's try B"... it doesn't matter if B isn't enough either, the point was B > A.

At the very, very least, seeing how quickly Goku discarded fusion and seeing the fight Beerus got, which he was pretty happy with, SSG = fusion. That's the least we can say about SSG and fusion, the worst case scenario for god is that it is equal to Vegito. Similar to what was said about SS4 and fusion in an official GT guide.

In RoF, when Vegeta turns ssjb for the first time Goku actually mentions that Vegeta got the power of ssjg without the ritual.

Saying that ssjg is equal to Vegito isn't even a worst case scenario. The writers basically did worse when they made ssjg and ssjb weaker than base form fusion. The jump between Buu arc Goku's base form and BoG Goku's base form was small and ssjg, with the ritual, would only have a ssjb level multiplier at best because ssjb is better than ssjg.

I just checked RoF, and there are no mentions of how Vegeta attained those forms. Which is in line with how BoG ended: hinting at Vegeta doing the ritual. You might be thinking of Toei's anime, which is irrelevant when speaking of how the author conceived SSG.

Fusion's base form, at least for Goku and Vegeta, is as strong, or slightly above, as the fusees' strongest form. It's not set in stone, it depends on their power. If they fused against Cell, base Vegito would've been as strong as SS Goku.
It's quite simple, really, if you have more forms available, your fusion will have all that power unlocked from the get go + being able to transform.
Z/BoG Vegito only had access to Goku's SS3 power on his base form -as seen against Buu, turning SS to fight, and DBS fusions have access to the strongest god form power in their base, as seen against Broly.

[TobyS]

Vegeta didn't get SSG through training, it's explicited at the end of BoG that Goku will have to help him do the ritual so he gets SSG as well, Goku agrees.

The point of saying Vegito won't do was to introduce a new, stronger form, that's also why Goku can't believe the power he has. That's how you introduce a groundbreaking new power. Supported by RoF, where a god-based Goku can beat up FF Freeza who in his first form was easily disposing of SS Gohan, rusty or not, he is at least Cell Games tier.
That's narrative 101, bobby says "A won't be enough but let's try B"... it doesn't matter if B isn't enough either, the point was B > A.

At the very, very least, seeing how quickly Goku discarded fusion and seeing the fight Beerus got, which he was pretty happy with, SSG = fusion. That's the least we can say about SSG and fusion, the worst case scenario for god is that it is equal to Vegito. Similar to what was said about SS4 and fusion in an official GT guide.

In RoF, when Vegeta turns ssjb for the first time Goku actually mentions that Vegeta got the power of ssjg without the ritual.

Saying that ssjg is equal to Vegito isn't even a worst case scenario. The writers basically did worse when they made ssjg and ssjb weaker than base form fusion. The jump between Buu arc Goku's base form and BoG Goku's base form was small and ssjg, with the ritual, would only have a ssjb level multiplier at best because ssjb is better than ssjg.

I just checked RoF, and there are no mentions of how Vegeta attained those forms. Which is in line with how BoG ended: hinting at Vegeta doing the ritual. You might be thinking of Toei's anime, which is irrelevant when speaking of how the author conceived SSG.

Fusion's base form, at least for Goku and Vegeta, is as strong, or slightly above, as the fusees' strongest form. It's not set in stone, it depends on their power. If they fused against Cell, base Vegito would've been as strong as SS Goku.
It's quite simple, really, if you have more forms available, your fusion will have all that power unlocked from the get go + being able to transform.
Z/BoG Vegito only had access to Goku's SS3 power on his base form -as seen against Buu, turning SS to fight, and DBS fusions have access to the strongest god form power in their base, as seen against Broly.

I completely agree, while it's not stated it's logical to assume God is better than a BoG veggetto would be, there's no mention of powering down and trying fusion or making a Veghan or anything.

Yet we do see Base vegetto be about on par with God/Blue etc after god forms, you can say it's because of god absorbed in base but that only applies to toeis filler now and even then not consistently.

The only way to square the circle is to say as you do, that Fusion starts as the most powerful form, or perhaps shared form.

[TobyS]

I know it's 4x ss2 and the ritual blows fusion out the water.

Ssjg and ssjb have lower multipliers than base form fusion. All the ritual does is turn Goku into a ssjg and give him a power up but that power up is still lower than fusion because it's equal to ssjg, which has a lower multiplier than base form fusion.

Goku says fusing with Vegeta would do nothing to Beerus. Goku later thinks God can win and says God is a power that he never could have imagined.

Post God fusion> God ritual> Pre God fusion.

Base fusions are stronger than the strongest fusee's form.

Which makes you realise they really need to do the ritual to the kids, a God Goten and trunks forming a Gotenks that starts God tier and can go SS3 on top of that would probably have slaughtered Saganbo and Freeza and the like.

[SoulSurj]

I just checked RoF, and there are no mentions of how Vegeta attained those forms. Which is in line with how BoG ended: hinting at Vegeta doing the ritual. You might be thinking of Toei's anime, which is irrelevant when speaking of how the author conceived SSG.

Fusion's base form, at least for Goku and Vegeta, is as strong, or slightly above, as the fusees' strongest form. It's not set in stone, it depends on their power. If they fused against Cell, base Vegito would've been as strong as SS Goku.
It's quite simple, really, if you have more forms available, your fusion will have all that power unlocked from the get go + being able to transform.
Z/BoG Vegito only had access to Goku's SS3 power on his base form -as seen against Buu, turning SS to fight, and DBS fusions have access to the strongest god form power in their base, as seen against Broly.

The manga, anime, and movie all treat ssjg the same way. In the manga and the anime, the ritual was a temporary means to access ssjg so Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis to be able to access it and ssjb. The movie doesn't mention how Goku and Vegeta achieved ssjg after BoG, it just mentions the idea of letting Vegeta use the ritual. That doesn't mean they ever actually used it or Vegeta kept the form. On top of that, the Broly movie was made by Toriyama for DB Super, not just Z BoG or RoF. It can still apply to those movies but it also applies to the DB Super manga and anime.

Everything you said about fusion would only apply to the first time the characters fused and completely ignores the fact that Base Gogeta would be above MUI if that were the case. Show me definitive proof that fusion's multiplier changes depending on the forms a character has after their first time fusing.

[Koitsukai]

I just checked RoF, and there are no mentions of how Vegeta attained those forms. Which is in line with how BoG ended: hinting at Vegeta doing the ritual. You might be thinking of Toei's anime, which is irrelevant when speaking of how the author conceived SSG.

Fusion's base form, at least for Goku and Vegeta, is as strong, or slightly above, as the fusees' strongest form. It's not set in stone, it depends on their power. If they fused against Cell, base Vegito would've been as strong as SS Goku.
It's quite simple, really, if you have more forms available, your fusion will have all that power unlocked from the get go + being able to transform.
Z/BoG Vegito only had access to Goku's SS3 power on his base form -as seen against Buu, turning SS to fight, and DBS fusions have access to the strongest god form power in their base, as seen against Broly.

The manga, anime, and movie all treat ssjg the same way. In the manga and the anime, the ritual was a temporary means to access ssjg so Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis to be able to access it and ssjb. The movie doesn't mention how Goku and Vegeta achieved ssjg after BoG, it just mentions the idea of letting Vegeta use the ritual. That doesn't mean they ever actually used it or Vegeta kept the form. On top of that, the Broly movie was made by Toriyama for DB Super, not just Z BoG or RoF. It can still apply to those movies but it also applies to the DB Super manga and anime.

Everything you said about fusion would only apply to the first time the characters fused and completely ignores the fact that Base Gogeta would be above MUI if that were the case. Show me definitive proof that fusion's multiplier changes depending on the forms a character has after their first time fusing.

Anime, manga and movie do not treat SSG the same way. That's clear as water.
And yes, if nothing is said any further, and Vegeta has the god forms, then yes, the implication in BoG should be taken as what happened.

Base Gogeta should not have been above MUI because Goku did NOT have UI at the time the movie happened, he accessed it once, but he no longer had access to it. Only now that Goku can access the form at will, Gogeta in his base should be able to have that kind of power.

The proof is in Gogeta's base being on the level of SSB, when in Z, his base wasn't as high and he went SS to fight Buuhan.

[SoulSurj]

Anime, manga and movie do not treat SSG the same way. That's clear as water.
And yes, if nothing is said any further, and Vegeta has the god forms, then yes, the implication in BoG should be taken as what happened.

Base Gogeta should not have been above MUI because Goku did NOT have UI at the time the movie happened, he accessed it once, but he no longer had access to it. Only now that Goku can access the form at will, Gogeta in his base should be able to have that kind of power.

The proof is in Gogeta's base being on the level of SSB, when in Z, his base wasn't as high and he went SS to fight Buuhan.

Ssjg is stronger than ssj 3, weaker than ssjb, and faster than ssj in every continuity it's been in. Ssjb is treated slightly different but not in terms of multipliers.

Goku had access to MUI but he didn't know how to change into the form at will. You even see a glimpse of it when he's changing into ssjb against Broly.

Vegito fought Buuhan but that doesn't matter. Gogeta's fusion multiplier was originally lower than Vegito's and ssj 3. In DBS it was buffed and made equal to Vegito's. That still doesn't prove that it changes based on the character's forms because Gogeta never made an official appearance in Toriyama's continuity and his multiplier was altered for the main continuity. You have to prove that Potara's multiplier, which Gogeta's multiplier now equals, changed based on the characters' forms.

[Koitsukai]

Anime, manga and movie do not treat SSG the same way. That's clear as water.
And yes, if nothing is said any further, and Vegeta has the god forms, then yes, the implication in BoG should be taken as what happened.

Base Gogeta should not have been above MUI because Goku did NOT have UI at the time the movie happened, he accessed it once, but he no longer had access to it. Only now that Goku can access the form at will, Gogeta in his base should be able to have that kind of power.

The proof is in Gogeta's base being on the level of SSB, when in Z, his base wasn't as high and he went SS to fight Buuhan.

Ssjg is stronger than ssj 3, weaker than ssjb, and faster than ssj in every continuity it's been in. Ssjb is treated slightly different but not in terms of multipliers.

Goku had access to MUI but he didn't know how to change into the form at will. You even see a glimpse of it when he's changing into ssjb against Broly.

Vegito fought Buuhan but that doesn't matter. Gogeta's fusion multiplier was originally lower than Vegito's and ssj 3. In DBS it was buffed and made equal to Vegito's. That still doesn't prove that it changes based on the character's forms because Gogeta never made an official appearance in Toriyama's continuity and his multiplier was altered for the main continuity. You have to prove that Potara's multiplier, which Gogeta's multiplier now equals, changed based on the characters' forms.

We were speaking about how SSG was achieved, not about its multiplier. Goku's grey hair vs Broly had nothing to do with UI. Other than to tease and drive movie goers wild.

Of course it matters Vegito's fight. It's one of the few official fusion appearences we have to go by.
Gogeta having a lower multiplier is biased but also irrelevant because as you say, he made an appearence in Toriyama's work once and that is enough to prove my point. Similar to Vegito's base performance against Zamasu, if you don't want to take Gogeta into consideration.

The proof of burden is on you, who are the one saying SSG isn't as strong even when BoG discarded fusion in favour of SSG. You have to disprove it, not me. I have BoG and Broly on my side.

[SoulSurj]

We were speaking about how SSG was achieved, not about its multiplier. Goku's grey hair vs Broly had nothing to do with UI. Other than to tease and drive movie goers wild.

Of course it matters Vegito's fight. It's one of the few official fusion appearences we have to go by.
Gogeta having a lower multiplier is biased but also irrelevant because as you say, he made an appearence in Toriyama's work once and that is enough to prove my point. Similar to Vegito's base performance against Zamasu, if you don't want to take Gogeta into consideration.

The proof of burden is on you, who are the one saying SSG isn't as strong even when BoG discarded fusion in favour of SSG. You have to disprove it, not me. I have BoG and Broly on my side.

Ssjg was achieved temporarily in every continuity using the ritual. After that Goku and Vegeta had to train to access that power without the ritual. It doesn't matter why MUI appeared. It's a form that Goku had access to but he didn't know how to trigger it at will. It still could've appeared at any time.

I've already disproved what you've said several times.

Ssjg < ssjb < base form fusion

Nothing about Vegito's first appearance proves that fusion didn't have a higher multiplier than ssjg and ssjb, nor does Base Gogeta seem to have surpassed MUI, so the theory about reoccurring fusion multipliers changing based on the fusees' strongest forms doesn't work.

[miguelnuva1]

1. There is no official fusion multiplier.

2. The fusees are getting stronger making the fusion much stronger.

3. Fusion could be exponents for all we know.

The God ritual is a second addition in power to 5he SSG form. If SSG for example was only 2x SS3 the ritual where Goku got the majority of the power blow fusion out the water.

Post God fusion has access to the power of the ritual.

[SoulSurj]

1. There is no official fusion multiplier.

2. The fusees are getting stronger making the fusion much stronger.

3. Fusion could be exponents for all we know.

The God ritual is a second addition in power to 5he SSG form. If SSG for example was only 2x SS3 the ritual where Goku got the majority of the power blow fusion out the water.

Post God fusion has access to the power of the ritual.

1. Doesn't matter, fusion is shown to be stronger than ssjg and ssjb. We don't need an exact number.

2. Yes, the fusion can transform into the forms the fusees acquire overtime. That doesn't change fusion's initial multiplier.

3. Ok?

Fusion's above ssjb. Why would the ritual's power put ssjg's multiplier over ssjb's and why would fusion be able to access the ritual's power when Goku already absorbed it and increased his power level with it?