Ssj4's connection to the Saiyan tail.

[Matches Malone]

Everyone assumes that due to Vegeta not having a tail after losing Ssj4, he wouldn't be able to transform at will again, unless of course he had his tail pulled out. However, we see that Goku after 100 years also doesn't have a tail, so does that mean he can't go Ssj4 at will any more, or is the tail just not required ?

[ankokudaishogun]

or, you know, the tail was just hidden\not visible

[Matches Malone]

or, you know, the tail was just hidden\not visible

Goku never hid his tail in DB or GT.

[Mad Swami]

I think they need the tail. However, after the 100 years, Goku in base was probably SSJ4 level

[TobyS]

Everyone assumes that due to Vegeta not having a tail after losing Ssj4, he wouldn't be able to transform at will again, unless of course he had his tail pulled out. However, we see that Goku after 100 years also doesn't have a tail, so does that mean he can't go Ssj4 at will any more, or is the tail just not required ?

Are you talking about Heroes type stuff.

GT isn't canon even to heros 100%, GT contradicts 'Z' and the manga.
It's just a "very much like GT" esque timeline.

All we really know is there were shadowdragons pretty much right.

So it's possible the tail is not required to trigger SS4.
Or possibly Goku and vegeta just have their tails wrapped round like belts like vegeta used to do and under their clothes.

[Peach]

I always saw Vegeta's Super Saiyan 4 as temporary. If he could have accessed it at will, he would have done it much earlier.

I think if he ever wanted to use the form again, he would need the blitz wave machine or to regrow his tail.

[SSJgogeto]

It could be anything. Maybe the tail isn't required, or maybe SS4 is a incomplete transformation and Goku achieved something even more powerful.

But IMO the real question is: why Goku don't have a tail at the end of GT?

[Matches Malone]

I always saw Vegeta's Super Saiyan 4 as temporary.

They said that in both the original Japanese version and the guide book. My question is why ? If it's because of a lack of tail, then why can Goku still use it despite removing his tail 100 years later ? I highly doubt he'd do that if it resulted in him losing his strongest form. I'm always against dub changes, but removing the line of Vegeta saying "Goku can access it at will because he's special" is an exception, as it just doesn't make sense any way you look at it. They're both full full blooded Saiyans, so why on earth is Goku "special" ?

Are you talking about Heroes type stuff.

I'm talking about GT itself.

[Peach]

I always saw Vegeta's Super Saiyan 4 as temporary.

They said that in both the original Japanese version and the guide book. My question is why ? If it's because of a lack of tail, then why can Goku still use it despite removing his tail 100 years later ? I highly doubt he'd do that if it resulted in him losing his strongest form. I'm always against dub changes, but removing the line of Vegeta saying "Goku can access it at will because he's special" is an exception, as it just doesn't make sense any way you look at it. They're both full full blooded Saiyans, so why on earth is Goku "special" ?

Are you talking about Heroes type stuff.

I'm talking about GT itself.

Did Goku ever use Super Saiyan 4 after the 100 year flash forward? I just remember Pan seeing him for a split second then it cutting to him walking in town while the narrator talks.

[Matches Malone]

Did Goku ever use Super Saiyan 4 after the 100 year flash forward? I just remember Pan seeing him for a split second then it cutting to him walking in town while the narrator talks.

No, but it wouldn't make sense for him to remove his tail if it would result in him losing his strongest form.

[SylentEcho]

But IMO the real question is: why Goku don't have a tail at the end of GT?

They're Saiyans! They double and quadruple their power in just a few years, let alone one hundred years! He might have found a new form and even surpassed SSJ4 and probably never needed the tail anymore.

Or, him 'merging' with Shen Long, could mean, he's some kind of supernatural being and doesn't even need to fight. Afterall, he kind of did grant Goku Jr's wish in the movie, without him having used the Dragon Balls.

[blacksymbiote]

Goku was dead after GT, he didn't need the tail in the afterlife. Vegeta would need either the machine or his tail pulled out for the transformation to happen again.

[Hulk10]

I always saw Vegeta's Super Saiyan 4 as temporary.

They said that in both the original Japanese version and the guide book. My question is why ? If it's because of a lack of tail, then why can Goku still use it despite removing his tail 100 years later ? I highly doubt he'd do that if it resulted in him losing his strongest form. I'm always against dub changes, but removing the line of Vegeta saying "Goku can access it at will because he's special" is an exception, as it just doesn't make sense any way you look at it. They're both full full blooded Saiyans, so why on earth is Goku "special" ?

Are you talking about Heroes type stuff.

I'm talking about GT itself.

When did they say that Vegeta's SSJ4 form was only temporary in the guidebook?

Also I believe that maybe Vegeta couldn't use it because he used an unnatural way to achieve it and could achieve it if he used the natural way.

[Koitsukai]

So basically the question is, if you cut the tail of SS4 Goku, does he lose the form forever too?

To be fair, I don't know why would you need a tail after you unlocked it. I mean, the tail is just there to react to the Blutz waves, and when Goku uses the form there are none. I think the tail helped Goku find out about the form, but it doesn't seem to play any kind of role when transforming.

One could take Vegeta's comment about his impossibility to go SS4 again as acknowledging what GT implied about Goku and the form, that it is the legendary SS. For some reason, he can't do it at will. Maybe the tail lets the saiyan absorb the form and once it's done the tail can be cut off without losing the form. Vegeta had no "real" tail to absorb the form with. I don't know

The tail being needed to access the form does propose that SS4 has a blatant Achilles heel. It was never treated as such in the show, though.