Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

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Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Angelus » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:59 pm

Super Buu was on a similar level as SSJ3 Gotenks. Of course the kids were far weaker than Goku and Vegeta but wouldn't adding in Super Buu's power into that be enough to bridge the gap? Buutenks is just Super Buu + SSJ3 Gotenks. Even if the kids were far weaker than either Goku or Vegeta, meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks would be far weaker than SSJ3 Gogeta, the added power of Super Buu should make them equal or close to it right?

I'm talking about Buu Saga Gogeta of course

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:29 pm

I don't see any reason why Gogeta would be so much weaker than Vegito. Definitely no reason to consider SS3 Gogeta being weaker than SS Vegito or anime base Vegito

SS3 Gogeta should wreck Super Vegito, Buuhan and Buutenks together

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by theherodjl » Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm

As shown in DBS: Broly & SDBH, the fusion dance makes Goku & Vegeta at least as powerful as Vegetto or stronger maybe. Even in the original DB run, SSJ Gogeta trashed Janemba, a villain stated on an old Toei filmsite to be stronger than Hirudegarn. Hirudegarn was at least as powerful as Bootenks since he KO'd Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks so any idea that Gogeta was supposedly a lot weaker than Vegetto didn't hold much, if any weight back in the old days.
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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:29 pm
I don't see any reason why Gogeta would be so much weaker than Vegito. Definitely no reason to consider SS3 Gogeta being weaker than SS Vegito or anime base Vegito

SS3 Gogeta should wreck Super Vegito, Buuhan and Buutenks together
I personally think Gogeta should be weaker. It makes both fusions more unique and I never understood how a mortal technique could match the fusion of divine earrings. The manga originally supports this too with the constant mentions of how much weaker the fusion was. However, that's all retconned and now they are the same.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Angelus » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:47 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 am
I personally think Gogeta should be weaker. It makes both fusions more unique and I never understood how a mortal technique could match the fusion of divine earrings. The manga originally supports this too with the constant mentions of how much weaker the fusion was. However, that's all retconned and now they are the same.
When did it get retconned? In Super?

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:55 am

Angelus wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:47 am
Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 am
I personally think Gogeta should be weaker. It makes both fusions more unique and I never understood how a mortal technique could match the fusion of divine earrings. The manga originally supports this too with the constant mentions of how much weaker the fusion was. However, that's all retconned and now they are the same.
When did it get retconned? In Super?
Broly movie promotions stated Gogeta to be as strong as Vegito or at least used terminology comparing the two putting them on the same level

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jun 22, 2020 1:08 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:14 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:29 pm
I don't see any reason why Gogeta would be so much weaker than Vegito. Definitely no reason to consider SS3 Gogeta being weaker than SS Vegito or anime base Vegito

SS3 Gogeta should wreck Super Vegito, Buuhan and Buutenks together
I personally think Gogeta should be weaker. It makes both fusions more unique and I never understood how a mortal technique could match the fusion of divine earrings. The manga originally supports this too with the constant mentions of how much weaker the fusion was. However, that's all retconned and now they are the same.
Back then I used to think that Vegito was the strongest fusion basically because it provides a rivalry bonus and the other one does not.
But not really by that much, I mean they have the same ingredients, they should still be relative to one another.

Something like this
Buutenks 100
Buuhan 110
Super Vegito 150
Super Gogeta 140

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Peach » Mon Jun 22, 2020 4:24 am

Gogeta is weaker than Vegito. I don't care what Super and its backwards retcons say. The Elder Kai saying it's stronger and permanent when it was originally created is enough for me.

That said. I don't think the difference is so huge that Super Saiyan 3 Gogeta is weaker than Base Vegito or Super Vegito.

I see it more like a SSJ2 Gohan-Ultimate Gohan difference.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:38 pm

Goten and Trunks are fat weaker than their fathers, so of course the resulting fusion is much stronger. There’s no reason to assume Gogeta would need SSJ3 just because Gotenks did

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:28 am

If Vegetto didn’t need SS3 to be ahead of Gohan-Boo, I don’t think Gogeta would be different. There is no reason to assume one is stronger than the other.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm

It is bizarre to think that ssj1 Gogeta would be more powerful than an ssj3 Gotenks considering that I'm pretty sure a hypothetical boo saga ssj3 goten would wipe the floor with a boo saga ssj Goku for example. But it also doesn't feel right for ssj Vegito to be drastically more powerful than ssj Gogeta.

I think Gotenks more than any other character just makes power scaling completely ridiculous in the boo saga. The power jump from Fat Boo being weaker than an ssj3 to super boo being as strong as fused ssj3s is insane, and that's because of the incredibly strange idea of having Gotenks achieve ssj3.

But it might just be that, for whatever reason (perhaps them being rivals), a Goku and Vegeta fusion is just a completely ridiculous boost compared to any other fusion. I think that's the best explanation we're ever going to get regarding this.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by theherodjl » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:26 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm
But it might just be that, for whatever reason (perhaps them being rivals), a Goku and Vegeta fusion is just a completely ridiculous boost compared to any other fusion. I think that's the best explanation we're ever going to get regarding this.
Pretty much. Goku & Vegeta merging has the greatest synergetic effect of two individuals that we've seen. Goten & Trunks' synergy doesn't even begin to compare to their fathers as Base Gogeta/Vegetto surpass Gotenks' strongest form by a lot. Now that Goku & Vegeta are stronger than Gotenks just as individuals, Gotenks would get wrecked by Base Gogeta/Vegetto even if Gotenks learned SSJB.
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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:37 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:29 pm
I don't see any reason why Gogeta would be so much weaker than Vegito. Definitely no reason to consider SS3 Gogeta being weaker than SS Vegito or anime base Vegito

SS3 Gogeta should wreck Super Vegito, Buuhan and Buutenks together
Gogeta >= Gotenks

in the buu arc it is clear that goten and trunks were not so far from their parents ... vegeta considers trunks a good training partner and gohan realizes that if he neglects .. the kids could be overcome him

in the manga ro kaioshin makes it clear that the potala fusion is superior + rivalry bonus

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:54 am

Old Kai is a semi unreliable narrator as his knowledge of Potara only comes from him using the earrings. Gowasu saying Potara is stronger would hold more weight.

Old Kai also says how amazing Potara and later says Goku and Vegeta are the reason fusion went so far.

As for Gogeta and Gotenks it is stated that little gains for the individuals are massive gains for the fusion.

Gotenks is getting the combined power of ssj Goten and Trunks out into his base form while Gogeta is getting the combined power of ssj2 Goku and Vegeta or even ssj3 Goku I'm his base.

Base Gotenks is said to have passed Majin Vegeta while Base Gogeta would at the minimum pass ssj3 Goku.

At worst I see Ssj1 Gogeta and Buuhan being rivals. Ssj Gogeta does to Buutenks what Vegito did to Buuhan.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Tectorman » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:47 am

My perspective is that we should go off of Buuhan's expectations. He knows how powerful the SSJ3 transformation is, and he knows how powerful the Fusion technique made the boys. He has no reason to expect the Potara Fusion to be different than what he already knows (either weaker or stronger), so he should have expected it to give Goku and Vegeta the same power boost that the Fusion technique gave the boys (indeed this is the case, since he later directly says that he wasn't expecting Vegetto to wreck him as easily as he was). And his estimation of the hypothetical combined warrior that Goku and Vegeta were going to become was that he didn't need to be worried.

So at the absolute best, I'd say that Buuhan expected the hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta to be marginally more powerful than him, but not enough to matter, especially with the 30-minute time limit getting cut down to 5-ish. And he could well have also been estimating himself to be far greater than the hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta.

TLDR: Buu Saga SSJ3 Gogeta would plausibly have been on par with Buuhan, so it's logical that he would have hilariously outclassed Buutenks.
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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:09 am

Not really. For example:

Goten: 2
Trunks: 2,5

Goku: 50
Vegeta: 50

Goten x Trunks: 2x2,5 = 5
Applies SS3 multiplier: 5x400 = 2,000

Goku x Vegeta: 50x50 = 2,500
Applies SS multiplier: 2,500x50 = 125,000

In retrospect, if Goten and Trunks get closer to the level of their fathers, their fusion gets two steps closer to their fathers’ fusion as well.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:33 am

Tectorman wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:47 am
My perspective is that we should go off of Buuhan's expectations.
Boohan's estimations for Goku & Vegeta's fusion was wildly inaccurate though. As seen in the anime, even Base Vegetto was stronger than Boohan. In M12, SSJ Gogeta pretty easily overpowered & destroyed Janemba, a Boohan-tier foe. In DBS: Broly, Base Gogeta managed to evade SSJ Broly's attacks relatively easier than SSJB Goku & Vegeta did. And if we count SDBH, Gogeta is possibly stronger than Vegetto(if just for one time only) due to Vegetto needing Kaio-ken on top of SSJB to stop Cunber while Gogeta only required SSJB to take on Hearts with the Universal Seed.
Boohan is particularly unreliable when it comes to predicting what degree of power that a merging of Goku & Vegeta produces.
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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by dragonball0900 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:32 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
As shown in DBS: Broly & SDBH, the fusion dance makes Goku & Vegeta at least as powerful as Vegetto or stronger maybe. Even in the original DB run, SSJ Gogeta trashed Janemba, a villain stated on an old Toei filmsite to be stronger than Hirudegarn. Hirudegarn was at least as powerful as Bootenks since he KO'd Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks so any idea that Gogeta was supposedly a lot weaker than Vegetto didn't hold much, if any weight back in the old days.
Actually, I don't think Hirudegarn is stronger than Bootenks just because of that.

Ultimate Gohan was far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks in Movie 13 as seen in the fight. SSJ3 Gotenks forced Hirudegarn to transform, while Ultiamte Gohan was trashed throughout (even SSJ2 Vegeta did better than him). Then SSJ3 Goku was even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since Goku was beating Hirudegarn in his maximum strength.

Movie 13's power scaling is full of inconsistencies that contradict the original Buu Saga. But the truth is that M13's scaling is in this order: SSJ Goten, SSJ Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku, Base Hirudegarn, SSJ3 Gotenks, Tranformed Hirudegarn and SSJ3 Goku.

Assuming M12 SSJ3 Goku is the same from M13, and Janemba is stronger than Hirudegarn (officially stated), then all we know is that Hirudegarn is stronger than a nerfed SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan that were put below SSJ3 Goku in strength.

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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:36 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:32 pm
Actually, I don't think Hirudegarn is stronger than Bootenks just because of that.

Ultimate Gohan was far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks in Movie 13 as seen in the fight. SSJ3 Gotenks forced Hirudegarn to transform, while Ultiamte Gohan was trashed throughout (even SSJ2 Vegeta did better than him). Then SSJ3 Goku was even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since Goku was beating Hirudegarn in his maximum strength.

Movie 13's power scaling is full of inconsistencies that contradict the original Buu Saga. But the truth is that M13's scaling is in this order: SSJ Goten, SSJ Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku, Base Hirudegarn, SSJ3 Gotenks, Tranformed Hirudegarn and SSJ3 Goku.

Assuming M12 SSJ3 Goku is the same from M13, and Janemba is stronger than Hirudegarn (officially stated), then all we know is that Hirudegarn is stronger than a nerfed SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan that were put below SSJ3 Goku in strength.
You're forgetting that Hirudegarn is mentioned as having a weakness, one which Goku exploits. The dub states that Hirudegarn loses power when losing control of his emotions but the original implies something else, possibly relating to the fact that Trunks had just sliced off Hirudegarn's tail(which noticeably affects it)which then led to Goku withstanding Hirude's blows and subsequently, it's destruction with the dragon fist.
Its a bit silly but I don't think its out of the realm of possibility that Hirudegarn losing his absorption-thingy reduced his strength considerably.
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Re: Is it logical to think that SSJ3 Gogeta would be around Buutenks' level?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:41 pm

dragonball0900 wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 7:32 pm
theherodjl wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 11:11 pm
As shown in DBS: Broly & SDBH, the fusion dance makes Goku & Vegeta at least as powerful as Vegetto or stronger maybe. Even in the original DB run, SSJ Gogeta trashed Janemba, a villain stated on an old Toei filmsite to be stronger than Hirudegarn. Hirudegarn was at least as powerful as Bootenks since he KO'd Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks so any idea that Gogeta was supposedly a lot weaker than Vegetto didn't hold much, if any weight back in the old days.
Actually, I don't think Hirudegarn is stronger than Bootenks just because of that.

Ultimate Gohan was far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks in Movie 13 as seen in the fight. SSJ3 Gotenks forced Hirudegarn to transform, while Ultiamte Gohan was trashed throughout (even SSJ2 Vegeta did better than him). Then SSJ3 Goku was even stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since Goku was beating Hirudegarn in his maximum strength.

Movie 13's power scaling is full of inconsistencies that contradict the original Buu Saga. But the truth is that M13's scaling is in this order: SSJ Goten, SSJ Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ2 Vegeta, SSJ2 Goku, Base Hirudegarn, SSJ3 Gotenks, Tranformed Hirudegarn and SSJ3 Goku.

Assuming M12 SSJ3 Goku is the same from M13, and Janemba is stronger than Hirudegarn (officially stated), then all we know is that Hirudegarn is stronger than a nerfed SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan that were put below SSJ3 Goku in strength.
They weren't nerfed, Goku is haxed.

Goku says he's stronger in M12 than in the Buu saga and he could be even stronger than that in M13.

Goku might have only needed a year after Buu to surpass Gotenks and Gohan especially if the kids and Gohan slacked.

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