Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

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Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:42 pm

Goku multiplied SSJB's strength by twenty-fold with the Kaio-ken and even that didn't compare to UIO's first appearance, so just how much more powerful are the forms of UI above SSJB? Given that Jiren was channeling Namek Freeza's advantage over the Z Senshi at the time, should the first activation of UIO be considered a x50 boost to line up with how SSJ boosted Goku back then? And if so then does that mean Goku's second & third UIO activations are along the lines of SSJG2 & 3/SSJ2's boost? Possibly leading up to MUI being on par with SSJ3's boost?
Or is UI truly more about technique than power?
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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by Miracles » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:34 pm

Numbers wise we do not know. However, we know UI sign/UI's battle power is literally in another dimension from Blue.
Just look at the considerable difference it made against Jiren.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:00 pm

That's why I'm asking for numbers. A x20 boost from SSJB is still too weak to affect a suppressed Jiren so what number could bridge that gap?
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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:28 pm

In the anime? Many times stronger.

In the manga? I don't wanna say it's like, multiple times stronger. Emphasis is given during the battle with Jiren that most of the "power" isn't the increase in actual strength but comes from how he's using it, but the battle with Moro does show that it's also stronger than Blue by some bit

Then you have Heroes where he manages to fight an opponent that SSBKK Vegito struggled with.

Ultimately, where Ultra Instinct stands is massive guess work at the moment, and depends largely on the continuity as well.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 8:48 pm

To me Omen is 10x Goku's Blue kaioken x20 and it leaves him a bit of a boost after he drops out.

UI is 2x Omen as the main point is you can attack with the power of UI. Omen is just defense and speed mostly.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:37 pm

I can buy that. IIRC, Whis stated that SSJ Kefla was on par with the Genki Dama so even a suppressed Jiren is stronger than SSJ Kefla & SSJB Goku using Kaio-ken x20 combined. Goku would need to boost his strength by at least x100 to be able to push Jiren with UIO.
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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by innocent_rage » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:09 am

I would say it's like this

Ssjb goku = 1
Ssjb kkx20 = 20
Jiren suppressed = 60~80
Jiren full power = 120
Goku UI = 100
Goku master UI = 150
Beerus full power = 90
Whis = 300 suppressed

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:24 pm

Well since base Gogeta is Blue tier and needed to go to Blue to beat someone on the level of Beerus then MUI is stronger than Blue by around the amount Blue is stronger than base.

So a really fucking big difference.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by Berserker1921 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:27 pm

I personally see UI/MUI as a 40-60x boost to base Blue. So 40x for UI and 60x for MUI. It’s a massive boost of power that ssjbE and ssjbkkx20 is not even close to UI omen.

Base Goku: 1
SsjB Goku: 40
Ssjbkkx20: 60
UI omen Goku: 80
MUI Goku: 100

Jiren suppressed: 50
Jiren Full Power: 80
LB Jiren: 95-100

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:14 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:24 pm
Well since base Gogeta is Blue tier and needed to go to Blue to beat someone on the level of Beerus then MUI is stronger than Blue by around the amount Blue is stronger than base.

So a really fucking big difference.
No, Gogeta needed to go Blue to embarrass and not be touch by someone Beerus level and Gogeta wasn't using anywhere near his full power.

Gogeta looked Whis's level the way he was embarrassing Broly.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by innocent_rage » Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:24 am

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:14 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:24 pm
Well since base Gogeta is Blue tier and needed to go to Blue to beat someone on the level of Beerus then MUI is stronger than Blue by around the amount Blue is stronger than base.

So a really fucking big difference.
No, Gogeta needed to go Blue to embarrass and not be touch by someone Beerus level and Gogeta wasn't using anywhere near his full power.

Gogeta looked Whis's level the way he was embarrassing Broly.
Sorry but I think you need to watch the movie again my friend, gogeta blue was going all out... Punching, kicking, ki blasting, using special techniques, screaming etc And broly just kept coming for more.if broly knew how to control his ki and fight properly, then gogeta would be in trouble.

Vegito Vs Buu is what playing around looks like.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:19 pm

innocent_rage wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:24 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:14 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:24 pm
Well since base Gogeta is Blue tier and needed to go to Blue to beat someone on the level of Beerus then MUI is stronger than Blue by around the amount Blue is stronger than base.

So a really fucking big difference.
No, Gogeta needed to go Blue to embarrass and not be touch by someone Beerus level and Gogeta wasn't using anywhere near his full power.

Gogeta looked Whis's level the way he was embarrassing Broly.
Sorry but I think you need to watch the movie again my friend, gogeta blue was going all out... Punching, kicking, ki blasting, using special techniques, screaming etc And broly just kept coming for more.if broly knew how to control his ki and fight properly, then gogeta would be in trouble.

Vegito Vs Buu is what playing around looks like.
Gogeta played with Broly more than Vegito did with Buu you need to watch the movie again.

Broly never touches Gogeta after he goes Blue, Gogeta was stated in the novel to not be using anywhere near his full power. Gogeta is also smiling the entire time.

We haven't seen domination like Gogeta did in that fight in a long time.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:27 am

The completed Ultra Instinct is definitively on a massive level entirely removed from SSB.

It's routinely compared to SSB Fusions in all ancillary material, and it has the feats to back it up in canon and in SDBH. The incomplete Omen version is harder to pin down, we just know that it's stronger than SSB/KKx20 and weaker than Ultra Instinct's full potential.

Ultra Instinct is SSB Fusion level, but Ultra Instinct Omen's power is unknown.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by DBZ Expert » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:04 pm

miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 6:19 pm
innocent_rage wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2020 9:24 am
miguelnuva1 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:14 pm


No, Gogeta needed to go Blue to embarrass and not be touch by someone Beerus level and Gogeta wasn't using anywhere near his full power.

Gogeta looked Whis's level the way he was embarrassing Broly.
Sorry but I think you need to watch the movie again my friend, gogeta blue was going all out... Punching, kicking, ki blasting, using special techniques, screaming etc And broly just kept coming for more.if broly knew how to control his ki and fight properly, then gogeta would be in trouble.

Vegito Vs Buu is what playing around looks like.
Gogeta played with Broly more than Vegito did with Buu you need to watch the movie again.

Broly never touches Gogeta after he goes Blue, Gogeta was stated in the novel to not be using anywhere near his full power. Gogeta is also smiling the entire time.

We haven't seen domination like Gogeta did in that fight in a long time.
SSJB Gogeta was easily beating Broli who was stated to be the strongest enemy meaning at least as strong as MUI Goku

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jul 06, 2020 12:37 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:27 am
Ultra Instinct is SSB Fusion level, but Ultra Instinct Omen's power is unknown.
UI-Sign is a variable power, being incomplete-but-progressing form.

In the manga, Goku's "at will" UI-Sign against Moro appears appears not increasing in power, probably as side effect of it being, well, "not instinctual".

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:00 pm

I never liked the idea that UI is a huge boost in power, but rather absolutely perfect martial arts technique. This especially paired with the manga repeatedly letting Goku know powering up isn't the way to beat Jiren in ToP, as he simply can't reach Jiren's level in this situation.

To me it makes sense that UI Goku might still be a decent amount weaker than Jiren, in the same way that even Roshi managed to dodge a supressed Jiren for a bit with a very basic form of UI. But UI is such a level of martial arts mastery that Goku still managed to dominate Jiren for a time once he tapped into it.

It feels weird to me putting UI at a level of an SSB fusion in power, even though there is evidence for that. I think UI Goku would beat the equivalent SSB fusion in a fight without being stronger.

I do think that the Moro arc has made this perspective not hold as much merit anymore though. I guess it's just how I wish things were handled.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by miguelnuva1 » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:23 pm

Goku's UI is creating a power increasing transformation on top of improving the way he fights. I wish they would explain more what is going on with him.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:39 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:00 pm
I never liked the idea that UI is a huge boost in power, but rather absolutely perfect martial arts technique. This especially paired with the manga repeatedly letting Goku know powering up isn't the way to beat Jiren in ToP, as he simply can't reach Jiren's level in this situation.

To me it makes sense that UI Goku might still be a decent amount weaker than Jiren, in the same way that even Roshi managed to dodge a supressed Jiren for a bit with a very basic form of UI. But UI is such a level of martial arts mastery that Goku still managed to dominate Jiren for a time once he tapped into it.

It feels weird to me putting UI at a level of an SSB fusion in power, even though there is evidence for that. I think UI Goku would beat the equivalent SSB fusion in a fight without being stronger.

I do think that the Moro arc has made this perspective not hold as much merit anymore though. I guess it's just how I wish things were handled.
It'd be great if UI was purely a martial arts technique instead of a power-up like in other martial arts stories. However, no matter how much technique Goku might have, Jiren would have had far too much strength & speed behind his attacks. To the point that Jiren would comparatively be moving in bullet-time as opposed to Goku moving in real-time just with optimized hand-to-hand combat.
DB is about ever-progressing power levels, so any trope of realized clarity driving the hero to win is just not viable within the narrative of DB. It always comes back around to power in the end.
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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:45 pm

This is probably just a narrative inconsistency, but the narrative sometimes portrayed Omen as not being that powerful. Only it just makes Goku's reactions and instincts far sharper. Kefla noted that Goku doesn't hit that hard while he was UIO. We can presume from this that she felt that he hit harder as SSB.

I suppose one explanation for this would be that Omen does indeed give a powerboost, but Goku skill-wise hadn't mastered the offensive aspect of Ultra Instinct, therefore, he was unwittingly pulling his punches.

I'd even go out on a limb and say UIO and MUI give the exact same power boost, where the only difference lies in Goku knowing how to use it offensively.

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Re: Objectively, How Much Stronger Is UIO/MUI Than SSJB?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:19 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:45 pm
This is probably just a narrative inconsistency, but the narrative sometimes portrayed Omen as not being that powerful. Only it just makes Goku's reactions and instincts far sharper. Kefla noted that Goku doesn't hit that hard while he was UIO. We can presume from this that she felt that he hit harder as SSB.

I suppose one explanation for this would be that Omen does indeed give a powerboost, but Goku skill-wise hadn't mastered the offensive aspect of Ultra Instinct, therefore, he was unwittingly pulling his punches.

I'd even go out on a limb and say UIO and MUI give the exact same power boost, where the only difference lies in Goku knowing how to use it offensively.
Can't forget MUI Goku's mighty comeback wherein he overpowers LB Jiren and then kamehamehas him down to the level of Golden Freeza. That is definitely a power boost over UI altogether.
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