Is stupid to use the term "canon"?

p-hyvo · Post by **p-hyvo** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 pm

I was wondering if any author from both the anime and the manga ever used the term "canon" to describe something. I'm kinda sure that anyone did, but just in case I ask here. If you have something, show me some interviews about that. I need proofs to debunk a canon fag

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:06 pm

A lot of fans simply misunderstand what someone means by the word canon. When someone asks "what's canon", they're simply asking what the current writer of the story is taking into account while coming up with new stories. DB is too big of a franchise to tell someone "there's no canon, experience everything", that's a very unrealistic expectation to put on someone trying to get into such a franchise. For Toriyama, he's only taking his stories into account, be that the original manga or the newer ones he's currently coming up with.

With that said, that doesn't mean things will continue like that once Toriyama steps down. A different writer could make a 360 and say everything happened, be that Z's movies and even GT. He could make a whole chart explaining how there are 2 Brolys, or how Slug and Tullece's movies take place before the androids show up, etc.

p-hyvo · Post by **p-hyvo** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:32 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:06 pm A lot of fans simply misunderstand what someone means by the word canon. When someone asks "what's canon", they're simply asking what the current writer of the story is taking into account while coming up with new stories. DB is too big of a franchise to tell someone "there's no canon, experience everything", that's a very unrealistic expectation to put on someone trying to get into such a franchise. For Toriyama, he's only taking his stories into account, be that the original manga or the newer ones he's currently coming up with.

With that said, that doesn't mean things will continue like that once Toriyama steps down. A different writer could make a 360 and say everything happened, be that Z's movies and even GT. He could make a whole chart explaining how there are 2 Brolys, or how Slug and Tullece's movies take place before the androids show up, etc.

There's to say that DB has too many authors and is written in such a way that is impossible to determine a fix canon to live up to imo. Manga, anime, movies, gt, heroes, super... Too many continuities too different from one another, there isn't a connecting wire across everything, and often even analyzing a single continuity that wire doesn't even makes sense

pepd · Post by **pepd** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:39 pm

p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 pm I was wondering if any author from both the anime and the manga ever used the term "canon" to describe something. I'm kinda sure that anyone did, but just in case I ask here. If you have something, show me some interviews about that. I need proofs to debunk a canon fag

Make sure you are talking about the same.

There is no official “canon” as in clearly and officially stated to be canon. For that you just need to call the lack of such statement.
Then there is the discussion of what would be the canon according to the definition and meaning of “canon”. There you have to discuss first the definition of canon; if there is no agreement, then the discrepancy is on the canon definition. If there is an agreement on the definition, there comes a discussion of who's authority matter, and just then comes the evidence to determinate what is this canon.

Also, there are people who want to shove their canon to other people's throat, or share their canon conclusion aggressively; but sometimes people just are discussing to trying to figure out the canon, because it matters to them or just for the fun of it, and they are mistook for the first.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:42 pm

Not only is it stupid, yes, it's very cringey when no canon has been established. Because that way, whenever people state "this is/isn't canon/cannon" (and they use the wrong word, to make things worse), they are simply stating their opinion based on nothing. Sticking just to what the author did/does is probably a noble act, but it was never a rule to be religiously followed too.

Canonicity loses all meaning in franchises that feature alternate dimension concept too. That allows "crossovers", and to think about canonicity in a situation like this is very complicated, an unnecessary complication, I might add.

I don't know about other animes, but no, in Dragon Ball it was never stated what is canonical and what is not.

p-hyvo · Post by **p-hyvo** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:48 pm

pepd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:39 pm
p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 pm I was wondering if any author from both the anime and the manga ever used the term "canon" to describe something. I'm kinda sure that anyone did, but just in case I ask here. If you have something, show me some interviews about that. I need proofs to debunk a canon fag
Make sure you are talking about the same.

There is no official “canon” as in clearly and officially stated to be canon. For that you just need to call the lack of such statement.
Then there is the discussion of what would be the canon according to the definition and meaning of “canon”. There you have to discuss first the definition of canon; if there is no agreement, then the discrepancy is on the canon definition. If there is an agreement on the definition, there comes a discussion of who's authority matter, and just then comes the evidence to determinate what is this canon.

Also, there are people who want to shove their canon to other people's throat, or share their canon conclusion aggressively; but sometimes people just are discussing to trying to figure out the canon, because it matters to them or just for the fun of it, and they are mistook for the first.

I called the lack of official statements about it, and I received "if you say so" as an answer. Then I asked for a debunk if he could, and he told that he hasn't time to waste in searching it lmao

p-hyvo · Post by **p-hyvo** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:49 pm

Grimlock wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:42 pm Not only is it stupid, yes, it's very cringey when no canon has been established. Because that way, whenever people state "this is/isn't canon/cannon" (and they use the wrong word, to make things worse), they are simply stating their opinion based on nothing. Sticking just to what the author did/does is probably a noble act, but it was never a rule to be religiously followed too.

Canonicity loses all meaning in franchises that feature alternate dimension concept too. That allows "crossovers", and to think about canonicity in a situation like this is very complicated, an unnecessary complication, I might add.

I don't know about other animes, but no, in Dragon Ball it was never stated what is canonical and what is not.

As I knew, I just search for confirmation on my point even if I was pretty sure. I want proofs just to prove the guy wrong

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:52 pm

Grimlock wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:42 pmIn Dragon Ball it was never stated what is canonical and what is not.

It doesn't have to be. Does someone official have to say that the old Broly movies aren't connected to Super and its Broly movie to figure that out ? If DB had no canon, then it'd be in a heroes situation where everything goes, which is clearly not the case, as Toriyama is clearly only taking his stories into account while coming up with new ones. Like I mentioned above, this could very well change once Toriyama's done, but until then, things like Z's movies and GT are simply not being considered while new material is being written by him.

pepd · Post by **pepd** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:54 pm

p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:48 pm
pepd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:39 pm
p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:56 pm I was wondering if any author from both the anime and the manga ever used the term "canon" to describe something. I'm kinda sure that anyone did, but just in case I ask here. If you have something, show me some interviews about that. I need proofs to debunk a canon fag
Make sure you are talking about the same.

There is no official “canon” as in clearly and officially stated to be canon. For that you just need to call the lack of such statement.
I called the lack of official statements about it, and I received "if you say so" as an answer. Then I asked for a debunk if he could, and he told that he hasn't time to waste in searching it lmao

If you two where discussing the official canon, then the point has been made to anyone who wants to listen. Do you want him to accept it and ask for forgiveness? Haha

SSJgogeto · Post by **SSJgogeto** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:59 pm

I don't think it's stupid, but is necessary to have an agreement on what "canon" means.

With that said, Toriyama said this about the movies:

I take the movies as “stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic”. I’m entirely just an audience member for them.

Many people interpret the terms in bold as the closest we have to "canon" and "non-canon".

pepd · Post by **pepd** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:59 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:52 pm
Grimlock wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:42 pmIn Dragon Ball it was never stated what is canonical and what is not.
It doesn't have to be. Does someone official have to say that the old Broly movies aren't connected to Super and its Broly movie to figure that out ? If DB had no canon, then it'd be in a heroes situation where everything goes, which is clearly not the case, as Toriyama is clearly only taking his stories into account while coming up with new ones. Like I mentioned above, this could very well change once Toriyama's done, but until then, things like Z's movies and GT are simply not being considered while new material is being written by him.

That's why I mentioned that it has to be clear what the discussion is about. Yes, it doesn't matter if you want to discuss what would be/is the canon in the spirit of the definition of “canon”; but it does matter a lot if the discussion is about an officially stated “canon”

LoganForkHands73 · Post by **LoganForkHands73** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:02 pm

I wouldn't call it stupid but I do find it tiresome when people get so dogmatic about it. With works created and controlled by a single author, it's usually a fairly simple matter of discerning the original author's works from adaptations, fanzine writers and plagiarists. Before the internet and the tightening of copyright restrictions, it could be a genuinely valuable exercise since information on what an author did or didn't write wasn't widely available. This was the case with Sherlock Holmes fans, who basically originated the term "canon" as fandoms came to use it, as there were so many bootleg Sherlock Holmes books out there that it was necessary to discern what Arthur Conan Doyle actually wrote. It wasn't a statement on continuity, just a method of organisation. If you wanna go way back, you've got Biblical canon scholars who basically did the same thing - some churches accept one gospel as Biblical canon, another wouldn't... except literal wars have probably been started because of these canon flamewars.

With massive multimedia franchises that we have now, the process has become insanely overcomplicated and fluid. Dragon Ball has it pretty well off all things considered. Most people, no matter their inclination, tend to at least view Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga run as definitively canon and can safely say stuff like "Paikuhan wasn't canonical to the original manga". Some franchises don't even have that luxury of a solid foundation. I think Toriyama and Toei generally not making definitive statements on canon is for the best. The rest can all remain subjective.

I think the worst thing about canon debates is that people take it all way too personally. If a franchise stops acknowledging a past work as in-canon, in-continuity, whatever they want to call it, it doesn't stop anyone from enjoying the old work. I could understand with certain franchises like Star Wars that went with a blank slate and cut off many incomplete stories, but it's like boo-hoo, tell it to the Firefly fans. It's not the end of the world. Dragon Ball is particularly lenient in this regard, since "non-canon" stuff keeps being referenced and revived in new works all the time. If you liked Super Saiyan 4, there's still stories being made with Super Saiyan 4. There's literally no reason to complain.

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:06 pm

pepd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:59 pmThat's why I mentioned that it has to be clear what the discussion is about. Yes, it doesn't matter if you want to discuss what would be/is the canon in the spirit of the definition of “canon”; but it does matter a lot if the discussion is about an officially stated “canon”

I think we can all agree that no one has officially said that A,B,&C are canon while D,E,&F aren't. I just don't think that's needed to determine what is and isn't depending on the situation. No one needs to say directly that the original 13 Z movies aren't connected to Super for me to figure that out, especially with Super now having a rebooted Broly.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:10 pm

p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:49 pmAs I knew, I just search for confirmation on my point even if I was pretty sure. I want proofs just to prove the guy wrong

Off the top of my head, an "evidence" of the lack of a canon is the existence of Dragon Ball Super itself. Just the "Battle of Gods" portion has three continuities (movie, anime and manga). If there was a canon, it would dictate which one of these versions is the correct one to follow/consider. In other words, we wouldn't have people preferring one of them over the other. A canon "wouldn't allow" you to choose which of these tree continuities to follow.

So for example, I consider the movies canonical (my headcanon), so for me, Tarble exists. But you often see people choosing to follow the anime or manga, where Tarble's existence is questionable. It seems he doesn't exist in both continuities and for the people who follow the anime or the manga. The canon wouldn't allow these kind of discrepances to pop up.

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:52 pmIt doesn't have to be.

Yes, it does. That's how you establish canon. Otherwise, all we have are opinions.

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:52 pmDoes someone official have to say that the old Broly movies aren't connected to Super and its Broly movie to figure that out ?

At this moment, no because the old movies were already stated beforehand to take place in another dimension. They don't happen in the "series continuity", but we have ways to introduce or make them meet characters from the series anyway. And that is precisely where canon loses its meaning.

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:52 pmIf DB had no canon, then it'd be in a heroes situation where everything goes, which is clearly not the case, as Toriyama is clearly only taking his stories into account while coming up with new ones. Like I mentioned above, this could very well change once Toriyama's done, but until then, things like Z's movies and GT are simply not being considered while new material is being written by him.

By "heroes" you mean Dragon Ball Heroes? If so, yeah, it is the case. All it needs is for an author who isn't afraid to leave the safe zone to do what is already currently being done. This is what a modern Dragon Ball should be about anyway. With Toriyama on board, we're probably gonna keep getting retellings and tournaments, which is a big no-no for obvious reasons.

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:02 pm With massive multimedia franchises that we have now, the process has become insanely overcomplicated and fluid.

Most people, no matter their inclination, tend to at least view Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga run as definitively canon.

I think the worst thing about canon debates is that people take it all way too personally.

I think what complicates things is the way the word is used, as what I believe the term "canon" means can differ from what someone else thinks of it.

This is the one thing no one can deny, as it's essentially the life blood of the entire franchise. You remove any part of the original manga and everything just falls apart.

A lot of fans tend to take the term "non-canon" as another way of saying bad, which isn't the case. Broly's first Z movie isn't canon to Super, but that doesn't mean we can't like it just as much, if not more.

p-hyvo · Post by **p-hyvo** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:22 pm

pepd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:54 pm
p-hyvo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:48 pm
pepd wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:39 pm
Make sure you are talking about the same.

There is no official “canon” as in clearly and officially stated to be canon. For that you just need to call the lack of such statement.
I called the lack of official statements about it, and I received "if you say so" as an answer. Then I asked for a debunk if he could, and he told that he hasn't time to waste in searching it lmao
If you two where discussing the official canon, then the point has been made to anyone who wants to listen. Do you want him to accept it and ask for forgiveness? Haha

Nah, I just want him to admit I'm right because well, I am

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:26 pm

Grimlock wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:10 pmThey don't happen in the "series continuity", but we have ways to introduce or make them meet characters from the series anyway. And that is precisely where canon loses its meaning.

The word "canon" isn't meant to be an unchangeable thing, it simply tells the viewer or reader what the current author is taking into account. Although some stories aren't "canon" to what Toriyama is writing now, that doesn't mean a different writer can't change that. Toyotaro for example could introduce a concept that brings all these different stories into one timeline. Or we could get something unexpected, maybe Toyotaro isn't the future writer, but someone else who decides that Toriyama's modern stories need to go, which will give us a completely different "canon".

theherodjl · Post by **theherodjl** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:56 pm

The word shouldn't be "canon" but "canons". There's the manga canon. There's the anime canon. There's the movie canon. There's the video game canon. Even DB Evolution counts as a live-action canon(that Toriyama personally detests in comparison to any other DB-related material).
There's no one-true, authoritative, "official" canon in DB as each media is part of a series of stories on DB. Toriyama has stated that he viewed the movies as a different dimension but implied nothing about them lacking canonicity within themselves.

LoganForkHands73 · Post by **LoganForkHands73** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:27 pm

Matches Malone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:16 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:02 pm With massive multimedia franchises that we have now, the process has become insanely overcomplicated and fluid.

Most people, no matter their inclination, tend to at least view Toriyama's Dragon Ball manga run as definitively canon.

I think the worst thing about canon debates is that people take it all way too personally.
I think what complicates things is the way the word is used, as what I believe the term "canon" means can differ from what someone else thinks of it.

This is the one thing no one can deny, as it's essentially the life blood of the entire franchise. You remove any part of the original manga and everything just falls apart.

A lot of fans tend to take the term "non-canon" as another way of saying bad, which isn't the case. Broly's first Z movie isn't canon to Super, but that doesn't mean we can't like it just as much, if not more.

Yeah. The term has so little real meaning now that it's hard for me to care. It's on a tier just above battleboarding in terms of how much it impacts that quality of stories being told, i.e. very little.

Almost everything titled Dragon Ball relates back in some way to the original manga, so no arguments there. There are some grey areas - it's fair for some people to dismiss Dragon Ball Minus for example, even though it was also written by Toriyama as his preferred origin for Goku, in the same comic medium no less. That's where I think it all becomes subjective and down to personal taste. The bottom line that I think we can all agree on here is that it's not okay to be a throat-shoving asshole about it.

As a compromise, I think the term "deuterocanon" should come back to describe Minus and all other Dragon Ball stories that build off the original manga, but aren't necessary to the foundational story. GT, the movies, etc can fall under that label because Toriyama implicitly approved of all of them, even if he had little personal involvement. It feels less oppressive and exclusionary than "uuggh it's non-canon so it don't matter".

Matches Malone · Post by **Matches Malone** » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:37 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:27 pmIt's fair for some people to dismiss Dragon Ball Minus, even though it was also written by Toriyama as his preferred origin for Goku, in the same comic medium no less.

The difference is that Minus wasn't part of the original manga, it was written nearly 20 years after the manga's conclusion. Minus has no impact on the original manga because it wasn't part of it to begin with, so you can ignore it if you want while talking strictly about the original manga's 520 chapters. You can't however dismiss something like the King Piccolo arc, because without it everything after falls apart.

Kanzenshuu

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