Android 17 was never SSG/SSB tier in the anime ToP before the fight with Anilaza

[BWri]

Yeah, there isn't any nerfing going on. Most of the fighters were holding back to either conserve energy, which 17 doesn't have to worry about, or to keep from killing their opposition. It's exactly what ZombieVito says there.

Then explain how 17 wasn't able to handle the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole while a Tired Base Goku could, or why his barriers kept being broken by U2 fodder when later on post-Anilaza fight it manages to resist attacks from Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren.

I don't mind if you say he was holding back/he was nerfed. I'm totally fine with that idea that he was holding back. But if you only watched episode 118 without any context from other episodes, you would think he was weaker than Base Goku in the tournament, given how his feats were similar, if not worse. 17 (as well as 18 and Piccolo) were nerfed throughout the tournament to fight alongside base saiyan characters like Goku and Gohan. Otherwise, 17 would have finished with all the U2 contestants with one punch.

I'm saying this since I've been watching the anime tournament of power countless of times since they keep airing it on TV. And because of that, it's easier to spot many of the inconsistencies and feats of the characters that the anime gives us.

Fair enough. The ToP in both anime and manga versions were very inconsistent. The anime, with its revolving door of writers, tended to confuse things more often than not with the power scale. But even with that said, certain aspects carried through from episode to episode.

17's barrier, like any ki based attack can vary in strength depending on how much energy he decides to put into it. If you watch any episode of the ToP without proper context, then you could make many false conclusions, such as Ribrianne being SSB tier or Roshi being Frost tier. Hell, even if you watch with proper context you could mistakenly conclude Krillin > Majora > #18 > Giant Ribrienne > SSB Goku >= Ribrianne. ToP is really that inconsistent.

#17, for the most part was holding back and even admitted to such when talking to #18.

For the most part, everyone on the U7 team broke past their limits with the exception of Tien and maybe Piccolo and/or Krillin. #18 expressly did this with the power of love, but there's a chance she and #17 were improving over the course of the 48 minutes. #18 is a wildcard. Probably the biggest in the tournament.

Goku's power creep throughout the tournament was insane, but even so, there's precedent to why he could withstand the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole while they struggled. He is used to intense levels of gravity while they are not. Even with higher power levels, exposure to high gravity takes some time to get used to. We saw kid Trunks struggle in 150x while Goku just before Namek was proficiently handling 100x. Base kid Trunks likely had to be at least 3x base Goku's strength if not far far stronger and yet he struggled much more and even he seemed more used to that gravity than #17 and #18.

It's best not to use anime Goku to try to measure other character's power unless you know for sure he's going all out. Gohan is easier to understand. Piccolo and 17, despite the anime's inconsistencies have power that is easy to track. Both are stronger than #18. She is more difficult to track. Piccolo remains stronger than a SSJ2 level fighter (not Goku or Vegeta) but is able to amp his Special Beam Cannon exponentially, enough to hurt fighters flirting with SSG tier if not outright surpassing it. #17 remains on the lower end of the Spectrum of SSB tier fighters but his infinite energy allows him to keep up with them in the end when everyone is tired. He is introduced sparring against SSB Goku and while Goku was holding back, so was #17. At the bare minimum we know he blows SSJ2 out of the water. Goku couldn't even compete with him in that form.

Hope that helps.

Otherwise, 17 would have finished with all the U2 contestants with one punch.

That's the beauty of DBS. This isn't so simple. They have secretly hidden some pretty complex mechanics into the fighting system that most people haven't even noticed. It's why I now cut the ToP a lot of slack these days. As a fighter in the ToP you have to measure your opponent enough to avoid killing them with your first blow, then you have to match your power to theirs or raise it just enough to dominate but not kill them. But the thing is, your opponent may be hidding power, maybe even a lot of it, and its then a game of one-upsmanship. As a matter of fact, do to the marathon nature of the tournament, most fighters are doing this to conserve power until they are backed into a corner.

So even if you're really good at manipulating your ki, if you are much much stronger than your opponent this is going to be harder and harder to do. The fighters that can manipulate their ki the best can probably do this instantly. But hell, even Goku seems to struggle with this at times so it's not always easy to do.

If you keep this in mind when watching many of the fights, they begin to make sense. #17 vs Kakunsa. #17 said he was holding back because she reminded him of forest animals or something, but he's also acclimating to her power. But keep in mind also that these other universe fighters aren't exactly slouches either. Ribrianne and her allies are deceptively strong.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, there isn't any nerfing going on. Most of the fighters were holding back to either conserve energy, which 17 doesn't have to worry about, or to keep from killing their opposition. It's exactly what ZombieVito says there.

Then explain how 17 wasn't able to handle the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole while a Tired Base Goku could, or why his barriers kept being broken by U2 fodder when later on post-Anilaza fight it manages to resist attacks from Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren.

I don't mind if you say he was holding back/he was nerfed. I'm totally fine with that idea that he was holding back. But if you only watched episode 118 without any context from other episodes, you would think he was weaker than Base Goku in the tournament, given how his feats were similar, if not worse. 17 (as well as 18 and Piccolo) were nerfed throughout the tournament to fight alongside base saiyan characters like Goku and Gohan. Otherwise, 17 would have finished with all the U2 contestants with one punch.

I'm saying this since I've been watching the anime tournament of power countless of times since they keep airing it on TV. And because of that, it's easier to spot many of the inconsistencies and feats of the characters that the anime gives us.

Fair enough. The ToP in both anime and manga versions were very inconsistent. The anime, with its revolving door of writers, tended to confuse things more often than not with the power scale. But even with that said, certain aspects carried through from episode to episode.

17's barrier, like any ki based attack can vary in strength depending on how much energy he decides to put into it. If you watch any episode of the ToP without proper context, then you could make many false conclusions, such as Ribrianne being SSB tier or Roshi being Frost tier. Hell, even if you watch with proper context you could mistakenly conclude Krillin > Majora > #18 > Giant Ribrienne > SSB Goku >= Ribrianne. ToP is really that inconsistent.

#17, for the most part was holding back and even admitted to such when talking to #18.

For the most part, everyone on the U7 team broke past their limits with the exception of Tien and maybe Piccolo and/or Krillin. #18 expressly did this with the power of love, but there's a chance she and #17 were improving over the course of the 48 minutes. #18 is a wildcard. Probably the biggest in the tournament.

Goku's power creep throughout the tournament was insane, but even so, there's precedent to why he could withstand the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole while they struggled. He is used to intense levels of gravity while they are not. Even with higher power levels, exposure to high gravity takes some time to get used to. We saw kid Trunks struggle in 150x while Goku just before Namek was proficiently handling 100x. Base kid Trunks likely had to be at least 3x base Goku's strength if not far far stronger and yet he struggled much more and even he seemed more used to that gravity than #17 and #18.

It's best not to use anime Goku to try to measure other character's power unless you know for sure he's going all out. Gohan is easier to understand. Piccolo and 17, despite the anime's inconsistencies have power that is easy to track. Both are stronger than #18. She is more difficult to track. Piccolo remains stronger than a SSJ2 level fighter (not Goku or Vegeta) but is able to amp his Special Beam Cannon exponentially, enough to hurt fighters flirting with SSG tier if not outright surpassing it. #17 remains on the lower end of the Spectrum of SSB tier fighters but his infinite energy allows him to keep up with them in the end when everyone is tired. He is introduced sparring against SSB Goku and while Goku was holding back, so was #17. At the bare minimum we know he blows SSJ2 out of the water. Goku couldn't even compete with him in that form.

Hope that helps.

Otherwise, 17 would have finished with all the U2 contestants with one punch.

That's the beauty of DBS. This isn't so simple. They have secretly hidden some pretty complex mechanics into the fighting system that most people haven't even noticed. It's why I now cut the ToP a lot of slack these days. As a fighter in the ToP you have to measure your opponent enough to avoid killing them with your first blow, then you have to match your power to theirs or raise it just enough to dominate but not kill them. But the thing is, your opponent may be hidding power, maybe even a lot of it, and its then a game of one-upsmanship. As a matter of fact, do to the marathon nature of the tournament, most fighters are doing this to conserve power until they are backed into a corner.

So even if you're really good at manipulating your ki, if you are much much stronger than your opponent this is going to be harder and harder to do. The fighters that can manipulate their ki the best can probably do this instantly. But hell, even Goku seems to struggle with this at times so it's not always easy to do.

If you keep this in mind when watching many of the fights, they begin to make sense. #17 vs Kakunsa. #17 said he was holding back because she reminded him of forest animals or something, but he's also acclimating to her power. But keep in mind also that these other universe fighters aren't exactly slouches either. Ribrianne and her allies are deceptively strong.

I agree with what you said here mostly. The anime is inconsistent with its power scaling. That’s a fact. And we can all agree with it. But there are still points that I believe are not correct here.

Remember when Gohan entered the RoSaT for the first time? He had never tried heavy gravity before, yet he only felt the gravity slightly heavier and could still freely move. Android 17 has infinite energy. He SHOULD perform the same feat on a gravity in which a TIRED Base Goku is able to stand against, specially since he doesn't get tired and has more endurance. And also because 17 is blue tier, he is like THOUSANDS of times stronger than a tired Base Goku, if not millions (depending on the gap between Base and SSB). But he didn’t resist the gravity like Gohan did back then. It’s another of Toei’s power scalings and nerfings so that 17 could look worse than Base Goku. That’s what the episode clearly shows. Episode 118 was a Goku and Gohan episode eliminating Universe 2 and 6 respectively. They needed to make Goku look good so 17 was nerfed to be below his level. Otherwise, he would have helped SSB Goku with the Pretty Black Hole.

And also, Ribrianne was firmly shown and stated to be around a non serious Base Goku (Rozie was also easily dominated by Base Goku too, and had her cornered in the edge of the arena). Yet previously 17 struggled against that same Ribrianne, the same 17 that beat Kakunsa easily. That shows that he was nerfed there too. Otherwise, he would have easily fodderized her like he did against even far weaker fighters like Base Katopesla (who is obviously FAR weaker than a Base Saiyan).

The U2 fighters are not strong at all. We later see Tired Base Goku and Base Saiyan Tier nerfed Androids 17 and 18 fighting equally against the last 3 U2 members who had the powers of the Kamikaze Fireballs, instead of easily dominating them like he did against other far weaker opponents (that means that the “he doesn’t want to kill them” excuse is invalid, since 17 could easily use just a bit of his so high power level to beat them without killing them, instead of purposefully fighting them at the same level as if he has the level of a base saiyan).

[CJStriker_CBR]

17's barrier, like any ki based attack can vary in strength depending on how much energy he decides to put into it. If you watch any episode of the ToP without proper context, then you could make many false conclusions, such as Ribrianne being SSB tier or Roshi being Frost tier. Hell, even if you watch with proper context you could mistakenly conclude Krillin > Majora > #18 > Giant Ribrienne > SSB Goku >= Ribrianne. ToP is really that inconsistent.

#17, for the most part was holding back and even admitted to such when talking to #18.

If you keep this in mind when watching many of the fights, they begin to make sense. #17 vs Kakunsa. #17 said he was holding back because she reminded him of forest animals or something, but he's also acclimating to her power. But keep in mind also that these other universe fighters aren't exactly slouches either. Ribrianne and her allies are deceptively strong.

Yea the ToP had allot of slouch and very much heache writing going on all the time, if felt like tie-ins to event comics at time with how inconsitant one episode was to the other. However those 1st few episodes in the ToP I felt had some of the strongest and more solid writing of the ToP up to episode 106. Then outside of the Jiren and Goku stuff it got crazy to figure out, espically for Ribrianne sadly.

It felt that the writers where at the start of the Ribrianne and 17 fighting they where leading into Ribrianne's strenght being nothing to scoff at, yea as you said in the end U2 was never anything to scoff at, but still if felt Toei was gearing up for some impressive levels Ribrianne would be showing with the SSJ-1 Vegeta Fight and then the 17 fight that left both his shield broken and the guys impressed.

But then it went off the rails with the Goku Base fight and got silly to figure out afterwords.

Goku fought Super Ribrianne in Base then had to all the way to Blue Tier just to kick her with little damage to her........Yea I had a hard time figuring that out, it just got weird why their where such jumps.

Honestly I can see Ribrianne getting tired by the end of her run but in the middle it got hard to figure.

So I try to cut it even when leveling Ribrianne's power by going part with the pre-episode 107 writing and then the post, what seem to be the case Toei was leading with Ribrianne with at the start, then what happend from episode 107 and on;

Ribrianne Base ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 Levels at the ToP Start.
Ribrianne Base Rage ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 to maybe SSJ-2 Levels at the ToP Start.
Super Ribrianne and Likely Giant Ribrianne ~~~ Good For SSJ-2 to SSJ-3 Levels at the ToP Start, but could take some hits from higher foes at best.

Kakunsa I Love but I have a Hard time figuring her I think Kakunsa is ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 Levels at the ToP Start Average but 17 gave a Risky move to Ring her out in episode 102 then just a plain overpowering move and did complement her power, so I think she could be more then that.

Rozie sadly is likely~~~ Good for Middle level Goku Base at the ToP Start.

[BWri]

Remember when Gohan entered the RoSaT for the first time? He had never tried heavy gravity before, yet he only felt the gravity slightly heavier and could still freely move.

Right, and this was gravity that Kid Goku with a power less than he had in the 23rd tournament could withstand. That fact that Gohan even felt it and described it as heavy despite being some 10,000x stronger means that strength doesn't make you automatically resistant to gravity. You'll have to get accustomed to it. And the Pretty Black Hole had exponentially more gravity than the RoSaT.

Android 17 has infinite energy. He SHOULD perform the same feat on a gravity in which a TIRED Base Goku is able to stand against, specially since he doesn't get tired and has more endurance. And also because 17 is blue tier, he is like THOUSANDS of times stronger than a tired Base Goku, if not millions (depending on the gap between Base and SSB). But he didn’t resist the gravity like Gohan did back then.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just not how it works in Dragon Ball. The thing is, yes power does have a factor in how one can handle gravity, but it is not the only factor. Even Pui Pui, a fighter that Kaioshin considered strong bragged about 10x gravity yet was likely far far stronger than Namek saga Goku who trained in 100x gravity. All that to say, you can't equate power with gravity, especially with characters who hadn't experienced higher gravity before (17 and 18) and are now experiencing the highest level of gravity in the series. Goku is used to gravity and constantly trains in it, from King Kai's planet to Bulma's ship, to RoSaT, to Whis' staff and this was literally the Androids first time dealing with any higher gravity.

It’s another of Toei’s power scalings and nerfings so that 17 could look worse than Base Goku. That’s what the episode clearly shows. Episode 118 was a Goku and Gohan episode eliminating Universe 2 and 6 respectively. They needed to make Goku look good so 17 was nerfed to be below his level. Otherwise, he would have helped SSB Goku with the Pretty Black Hole.

It's not a nerf. At it's worst, it's an inconsistency. But I don't even think that. Goku is used to gravity and they are not, simple as that. Goku's base is also fairly durable, but that's the only inconstant part, but again, I said before that Goku isn't the best person to use as a measuring stick. Remember, he did better against Hit in base than Vegeta did as an SSB. If anything Goku's base gets buffed 17 and 18 are fine.

And also, Ribrianne was firmly shown and stated to be around a non serious Base Goku (Rozie was also easily dominated by Base Goku too, and had her cornered in the edge of the arena). Yet previously 17 struggled against that same Ribrianne, the same 17 that beat Kakunsa easily. That shows that he was nerfed there too. Otherwise, he would have easily fodderized her like he did against even far weaker fighters like Base Katopesla (who is obviously FAR weaker than a Base Saiyan).

Again, you're using a constantly inconsistent Goku. He's fighting Ribrianne in base one moment and turning blue against her a few scenes later. Additionally, none of the characters are at a static level of power. Everyone naturally would be raising and lowering their ki based on what each situation demanded. If you go all out, you tire yourself out like Frost did in the manga. So in one scene, Ribrianne might be using a lot of power and in the next, she might be conserving power.

Rozie also gave him some trouble early on until he figured her out. It's just as I said before, the fighters all have to adjust on the fly to match their opponents. It's more of a challenge for Goku this way too, so I'm sure he's happy about that. But I'm not sure why you're laser focusing on certain inconsistencies. You can literally do that with any inconsistency. That's why inconsistencies are inconsistencies. They don't match what the narrative is really telling us about a character.

The U2 fighters are not strong at all.

Most combatants in this tournament are stronger than a lot of people believe they are. U2 aren't the strongest, not even close to it, but they are fairly strong. They survived as long as they did for a reason.

We later see Tired Base Goku and Base Saiyan Tier nerfed Androids 17 and 18 fighting equally against the last 3 U2 members who had the powers of the Kamikaze Fireballs, instead of easily dominating them like he did against other far weaker opponents (that means that the “he doesn’t want to kill them” excuse is invalid, since 17 could easily use just a bit of his so high power level to beat them without killing them, instead of purposefully fighting them at the same level as if he has the level of a base saiyan).

Well those last 3 were fairly strong, having their own powers + the transformations of the Kamikaze Fireballs. They were strong enough to generate an attack that made SSB Goku, 17, and 18 struggle so that's saying something.

I don't like using Goku's lesser forms for comparison unless he's being pushed to a stronger form (that at least shows us his opponent is stronger than that form), but in this instance if base Goku is fighting at the same level as #17 it can only mean that
a.) They are equally as strong (wrong)
b.) They are both holding back (likely)
c.) They are fighting opponents with different levels of strength (possible)
d.) base Goku is going all out and #17 holding back (possible but not likely)
e.) Goku, 17, and 18 are gauging their opponents and looking for an opening to attack with a move that is strong enough to defeat them but weak enough to not kill them. (likely)
f.) Their opponents are toying with them (not a chance)
g.) A combination of b, c, and e. (this IMO)

[BWri]

It felt that the writers where at the start of the Ribrianne and 17 fighting they where leading into Ribrianne's strenght being nothing to scoff at, yea as you said in the end U2 was never anything to scoff at, but still if felt Toei was gearing up for some impressive levels Ribrianne would be showing with the SSJ-1 Vegeta Fight and then the 17 fight that left both his shield broken and the guys impressed.

Yeah, I agree. They kept pitting her against the stronger fighters in the anime and none of them seemed to be able to eliminate her. That in and of itself either shows us that she is an impressive and/or tricky fighter or that no one is taking her seriously. If no one was taking her seriously, then it's likely they would have quickly eliminated her rather than leave a free entry for an opposing team. So it's easy for me to conclude that she is overall a fairly strong combattant, especially considering that she is the non-ironic hero of her universe.

But then it went off the rails with the Goku Base fight and got silly to figure out afterwords.

Goku fought Super Ribrianne in Base then had to all the way to Blue Tier just to kick her with little damage to her........Yea I had a hard time figuring that out, it just got weird why their where such jumps.

That's my point too. Goku makes things hard to figure out. His power seems inconsistent throughout the ToP, but I just chalk most of that up to having to acclimate to his opponent and holding back more often than not.

Honestly I can see Ribrianne getting tired by the end of her run but in the middle it got hard to figure.

That makes sense to me and she just blew the last of her power on her giant form. It's #18 that confuses me. Like where was she power wise just before the ToP started? Did she get a Piccolo-esque boost before the tournament? During, it seemed like they kept trying to imply that she might have been close to #17. In some parts she seemed stronger than Piccolo, in others comparible to Krillin. Then, in the end, she got a power boost from the power of love. Now in the manga, her and #17 seem to be on the same level. She's an oddball, just like Goku. But her boost basically put her over Ribrianne's version of the Spirit Bomb, so she must've grown very strong.

So I try to cut it even when leveling Ribrianne's power by going part with the pre-episode 107 writing and then the post, what seem to be the case Toei was leading with Ribrianne with at the start, then what happend from episode 107 and on;

Ribrianne Base ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 Levels at the ToP Start.
Ribrianne Base Rage ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 to maybe SSJ-2 Levels at the ToP Start.
Super Ribrianne and Likely Giant Ribrianne ~~~ Good For SSJ-2 to SSJ-3 Levels at the ToP Start, but could take some hits from higher foes at best.

Kakunsa I Love but I have a Hard time figuring her I think Kakunsa is ~~~ Good to SSJ-1 Levels at the ToP Start Average but 17 gave a Risky move to Ring her out in episode 102 and did complete her power, so I think she could be more then that.

Rozie sadly is likely~~~ Good for Middle level Goku Base at the ToP Start.

Not bad! These seem a little high, but honestly it makes sense to me. I can see this being the case. Figuring out SSJ levels is the hard part. Like how does each saiyan character's various levels compare to one another? Goku and Vegeta are much higher at these levels than the others thanks to all their training.

I think Kakunsa was either going all out or close to it as she struggled with 17 as soon as he got a little serious. He didn't appear to be exerting himself much and eliminated her handily.

[dragonball0900]

Remember when Gohan entered the RoSaT for the first time? He had never tried heavy gravity before, yet he only felt the gravity slightly heavier and could still freely move.

Right, and this was gravity that Kid Goku with a power less than he had in the 23rd tournament could withstand. That fact that Gohan even felt it and described it as heavy despite being some 10,000x stronger means that strength doesn't make you automatically resistant to gravity. You'll have to get accustomed to it. And the Pretty Black Hole had exponentially more gravity than the RoSaT.

Android 17 has infinite energy. He SHOULD perform the same feat on a gravity in which a TIRED Base Goku is able to stand against, specially since he doesn't get tired and has more endurance. And also because 17 is blue tier, he is like THOUSANDS of times stronger than a tired Base Goku, if not millions (depending on the gap between Base and SSB). But he didn’t resist the gravity like Gohan did back then.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's just not how it works in Dragon Ball. The thing is, yes power does have a factor in how one can handle gravity, but it is not the only factor. Even Pui Pui, a fighter that Kaioshin considered strong bragged about 10x gravity yet was likely far far stronger than Namek saga Goku who trained in 100x gravity. All that to say, you can't equate power with gravity, especially with characters who hadn't experienced higher gravity before (17 and 18) and are now experiencing the highest level of gravity in the series. Goku is used to gravity and constantly trains in it, from King Kai's planet to Bulma's ship, to RoSaT, to Whis' staff and this was literally the Androids first time dealing with any higher gravity.

It’s another of Toei’s power scalings and nerfings so that 17 could look worse than Base Goku. That’s what the episode clearly shows. Episode 118 was a Goku and Gohan episode eliminating Universe 2 and 6 respectively. They needed to make Goku look good so 17 was nerfed to be below his level. Otherwise, he would have helped SSB Goku with the Pretty Black Hole.

It's not a nerf. At it's worst, it's an inconsistency. But I don't even think that. Goku is used to gravity and they are not, simple as that. Goku's base is also fairly durable, but that's the only inconstant part, but again, I said before that Goku isn't the best person to use as a measuring stick. Remember, he did better against Hit in base than Vegeta did as an SSB. If anything Goku's base gets buffed 17 and 18 are fine.

And also, Ribrianne was firmly shown and stated to be around a non serious Base Goku (Rozie was also easily dominated by Base Goku too, and had her cornered in the edge of the arena). Yet previously 17 struggled against that same Ribrianne, the same 17 that beat Kakunsa easily. That shows that he was nerfed there too. Otherwise, he would have easily fodderized her like he did against even far weaker fighters like Base Katopesla (who is obviously FAR weaker than a Base Saiyan).

Again, you're using a constantly inconsistent Goku. He's fighting Ribrianne in base one moment and turning blue against her a few scenes later. Additionally, none of the characters are at a static level of power. Everyone naturally would be raising and lowering their ki based on what each situation demanded. If you go all out, you tire yourself out like Frost did in the manga. So in one scene, Ribrianne might be using a lot of power and in the next, she might be conserving power.

Rozie also gave him some trouble early on until he figured her out. It's just as I said before, the fighters all have to adjust on the fly to match their opponents. It's more of a challenge for Goku this way too, so I'm sure he's happy about that. But I'm not sure why you're laser focusing on certain inconsistencies. You can literally do that with any inconsistency. That's why inconsistencies are inconsistencies. They don't match what the narrative is really telling us about a character.

The U2 fighters are not strong at all.

Most combatants in this tournament are stronger than a lot of people believe they are. U2 aren't the strongest, not even close to it, but they are fairly strong. They survived as long as they did for a reason.

We later see Tired Base Goku and Base Saiyan Tier nerfed Androids 17 and 18 fighting equally against the last 3 U2 members who had the powers of the Kamikaze Fireballs, instead of easily dominating them like he did against other far weaker opponents (that means that the “he doesn’t want to kill them” excuse is invalid, since 17 could easily use just a bit of his so high power level to beat them without killing them, instead of purposefully fighting them at the same level as if he has the level of a base saiyan).

Well those last 3 were fairly strong, having their own powers + the transformations of the Kamikaze Fireballs. They were strong enough to generate an attack that made SSB Goku, 17, and 18 struggle so that's saying something.

I don't like using Goku's lesser forms for comparison unless he's being pushed to a stronger form (that at least shows us his opponent is stronger than that form), but in this instance if base Goku is fighting at the same level as #17 it can only mean that
a.) They are equally as strong (wrong)
b.) They are both holding back (likely)
c.) They are fighting opponents with different levels of strength (possible)
d.) base Goku is going all out and #17 holding back (possible but not likely)
e.) Goku, 17, and 18 are gauging their opponents and looking for an opening to attack with a move that is strong enough to defeat them but weak enough to not kill them. (likely)
f.) Their opponents are toying with them (not a chance)
g.) A combination of b, c, and e. (this IMO)

Gohan felt the gravity and was able to walk along nicely. This is because of how strong he was at this point. I repeat that this is an Android 17 that was thousands/millions of times stronger than Base Goku. Infinite energy plus the big strength he has should be enough to resist it. I would agree with you if only Goku hadn’t stand up in Base form. Gohan in the Android Saga proved that you can walk along nicely on a gravity that you had never experienced before. 17 not being able to stand in a gravity that Base Goku could stand shows him being nerfed. Someone that is blue tier should have resisted the gravity no matter how strong it is, since Goku as Blue could easily do it, and even in base form. Just like how Gohan did it in the Android Saga.

And the thing is, it’s not just that feat. It’s the countless of other feats that show 17 being nerfed to be on par with 18 and Base Goku. It wouldn’t make sense for 17 and 18 to be “fine” in their strength with Goku being buffed. We see how Rozie, one of the Kamikaze Fireballs, got dominated by Base Goku. Of course, Goku got confused by her fighting style at moments, but he still won easily. And WITHOUT SSJ.

And also, you are forgetting an important detail. It was stated in the spoilers for Episode 117 that Rozie and Ribrianne were the strongest U2 members (before the last 3 members used their powers, mind you). That means Rozie was stronger than Kakunza. And it also means Goku would have easily defeated Kakunza in base too. And that means Kakunza wasn’t anything special. 17 beating her is no grand feat at all. He would have knocked her out with one punch if he was using his blue tier strength.

The Kamikaze Fireballs were nothing special, and it’s consistently shown with Base Goku having the upper hand in his fights against them. Of course, you can make the excuse that Base Goku was “buffed”, but I really doubt he was. He is only durable in situations when he is fighting against much much stronger foes and is on the losing side. Goku even stated he wasn’t that serious against Ribrianne. Him doing better than SSB Vegeta against Hit is just to show how Goku managed to figure out Hit’s gimmick. It doesn’t mean he was stronger at all. Let’s not misunderstand the point of that scene. Goku wasn’t buffed against Rozie or Ribrianne. And him using SSB against the latter is just the typical thing he does everytime in the tournament. Using it against Nink, the Trio of Danger and Kale (who is not even SSG tier). He also did it before the tournament with Krillin.

The whole point of the U2 participants is not their strength, but it’s more about their fighting spirit (or love, as they call it). About their style of fighting and how they can confuse others when fighting against them (it happened with SSJ Vegeta, who wasn’t even serious and was taken aback by her weirdness, and then happened with Base Goku, who complimented her fighting style, rather than her power). But anyone who was Blue tier was able to easily beat them. SSB Goku easily beat Ribrianne in her more powerful winged form with one single kick. Android 17, who SHOULD be Blue tier, meanwhile, was struggling against her in her BASE form, and even had his barrier broken easily. Don’t tell me 17 wasn’t nerfed there because he clearly was. Otherwise he would have said “I’m holding back” or there would have been a statement suggesting that. Rozie being the second strongest, and easily being beaten by Base Goku means all Kamikaze Fireballs were not worthy in strength in the slightest.

The excuse of “17 doesn’t want to kill them” to support him not being nerfed is a terrible invalid excuse, since we see PLENTY of times in Dragon Ball that you can easily knock someone unconscious with enough strength not to kill them. And someone as smart as 17 should be able to do that EASILY.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I saw things, the best reconciliation is that 17 was holding back to get a better feel for how these fighters fought and relied more on his fighting ability rather than battle power.

[ZombieVito]

The way I saw things, the best reconciliation is that 17 was holding back to get a better feel for how these fighters fought and relied more on his fighting ability rather than battle power.

Yes and people forget the Androids never had martial arts or ki training. They do run the risk of accidently kill their opponent as proven by 18 thinking she killed that U4 fighter in the anime or having trouble holding back against the punching machine in the Boo arc.

[BWri]

Gohan felt the gravity and was able to walk along nicely. This is because of how strong he was at this point.

Yes, but again, this was only 10x gravity and Gohan still described it as heavy.


I've already mentioned that it was stated that Kid Goku was able to train in this room for a month. This Gohan is at least 100,000x stronger than Kid Goku so this shouldn't even be remotely described as heavy by Gohan if we go by your logic. I can't really address your other points because you're sticking with this faulty logic of how gravity affects characters. My previous post already addressed the nuances of how a character's strength effects their resistance to gravity. I've even already mentioned #17, #18 and how the Pretty Black is the exponentially heavier than all the gravity training we've seen in the series so far.

And also, you are forgetting an important detail. It was stated in the spoilers for Episode 117 that Rozie and Ribrianne were the strongest U2 members (before the last 3 members used their powers, mind you). That means Rozie was stronger than Kakunza. And it also means Goku would have easily defeated Kakunza in base too. And that means Kakunza wasn’t anything special. 17 beating her is no grand feat at all. He would have knocked her out with one punch if he was using his blue tier strength.

I don't think you're understanding me. I've already addressed all this multiple times. Goku is not a reliable indicator of strength for other characters unless it's clear that they've overpowered and forced him to his next form. Even then its sketchy. His base form thrashed Hit while Vegeta's SSB form got in next to no offense. That's the last time I'll make that point. It's preferable to only use Goku when he's going all out in his strongest form otherwise his writing is all over the place.

As far as the Kamikaze Fireballs go. If you're comparing them to high tier fighters, then no, they are not special. My point previously was that most of the fighters in the tournament are not weaklings by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe 5% - 10% are, but most fighters are fairly solid. Anyone close to Goku, Vegeta, Toppo, Jiren, etc. has an obscene level of strength. So just because people aren't close to being obscenely strong, I don't consider them to be weak or "nothing special". These are all characters that would more than likely sweep through previous arcs nicely. And so if Ribrianne can press Goku to go Blue for even a second, or can put up a fight with SSJ Vegeta and not get immediately eliminated, it shows me that she is an impressive fighter. My guess would be that Giant Ribrianne would be capable of putting an end to Kid Buu. I'm not sure if she's stronger than Buu saga, but I think she's easily capable of finishing Kid Buu, an impressive feat.

Him doing better than SSB Vegeta against Hit is just to show how Goku managed to figure out Hit’s gimmick. It doesn’t mean he was stronger at all.

I'm not sure how you can claim #17 is nerfed but not think that Goku's base was buffed in this scene or that Vegeta was also nerfed. Even if Goku knew Hit's technique, the difference wouldn't be this dramatic if Vegeta was literally thousands of times faster than Goku's base. Even if you take manga logic and say that Vegeta was only at 10% SSB for that scene, it would still imply that he's several hundred times faster, stronger, and more durable than base Goku.

In the end, Goku literally overpowered Hit by being stronger and faster. His only advantage over Vegeta was he could predict where Hit was going to strike, but the thing is, Vegeta had reflexes thousands of times faster which would have made up the difference. That scene would make more sense if Goku used any other form but base.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you're not sure of the difference between a nerf, an inconsistency, characters holding back or the subtle power mechanics they were using in the ToP. I'm also not sure why you're choosing this particular hill to die on. As you seem to give them ample leeway with Goku, Vegeta, and Hit in the U6 Tournament.

The way I saw things, the best reconciliation is that 17 was holding back to get a better feel for how these fighters fought and relied more on his fighting ability rather than battle power.

Yes and people forget the Androids never had martial arts or ki training. They do run the risk of accidently kill their opponent as proven by 18 thinking she killed that U4 fighter in the anime or having trouble holding back against the punching machine in the Boo arc.

This was also there first time dealing with gravity higher than Earth's natural gravity (During the Pretty Black Hole).

[dragonball0900]

I've already mentioned that it was stated that Kid Goku was able to train in this room for a month. This Gohan is at least 100,000x stronger than Kid Goku so this shouldn't even be remotely described as heavy by Gohan if we go by your logic. I can't really address your other points because you're sticking with this faulty logic of how gravity affects characters. My previous post already addressed the nuances of how a character's strength effects their resistance to gravity. I've even already mentioned #17, #18 and how the Pretty Black is the exponentially heavier than all the gravity training we've seen in the series so far.

I’d better use some comparisons so that you could understand better what I mean.

Kid Goku would be like ToP Base Goku (both being able to move with difficulty on the heavy gravity). Android Saga Gohan would be like 17 (both never experienced gravity before, and both are thousands of times stronger than the two mentioned before). We clearly see what’s happening here. Gohan felt the gravity, obviously, but was still able to move freely. 17, on the other hand, even with his infinite energy, couldn’t do it, despite the fact that a much weaker being like Base Goku could move with difficulty. Characters with a similar power gap in similar situations. Just because 17 had never experienced gravity before doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be able to move. I NEVER said he wouldn’t feel it heavy. Of course he would. But he should have been able to at least move, just like how Gohan did it back then in the RoSaT, DESPITE the fact that Gohan still felt it heavy.

I don't think you're understanding me. I've already addressed all this multiple times. Goku is not a reliable indicator of strength for other characters unless it's clear that they've overpowered and forced him to his next form. Even then its sketchy. His base form thrashed Hit while Vegeta's SSB form got in next to no offense. That's the last time I'll make that point. It's preferable to only use Goku when he's going all out in his strongest form otherwise his writing is all over the place.

As far as the Kamikaze Fireballs go. If you're comparing them to high tier fighters, then no, they are not special. My point previously was that most of the fighters in the tournament are not weaklings by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe 5% - 10% are, but most fighters are fairly solid. Anyone close to Goku, Vegeta, Toppo, Jiren, etc. has an obscene level of strength. So just because people aren't close to being obscenely strong, I don't consider them to be weak or "nothing special". These are all characters that would more than likely sweep through previous arcs nicely. And so if Ribrianne can press Goku to go Blue for even a second, or can put up a fight with SSJ Vegeta and not get immediately eliminated, it shows me that she is an impressive fighter. My guess would be that Giant Ribrianne would be capable of putting an end to Kid Buu. I'm not sure if she's stronger than Buu saga, but I think she's easily capable of finishing Kid Buu, an impressive feat.

Base Goku being stronger than Rozie (officially stated to be the 2nd strongest U2 member), and winning against Base Ribrianne are facts from the anime. Saying otherwise is just using headcanon. We can’t assume anything else since that’s all we know from the anime. Saying Kakunza or Rozie are SSJ tier or SSJ2 tier is just total headcanon and assumptions based on zero feats from the anime. Base Goku beating Rozie easily is totally clear, and he would do the same to Kakunza (who is weaker than Rozie). Just because Base Goku was “buffed” or “nerfed” at different points doesn’t mean we have to assume this is one of those cases, because so far NOTHING contradicts him being above those two Kamikaze Fireballs.

As for Ribrianne, her fighting SSJ Vegeta is because Vegeta clearly wasn’t being serious. And then we see how Vegeta didn’t want to fight her due to finding her repulsive to fight. Otherwise, Vegeta would have easily eliminated her. And Goku got distracted by Jiren, that’s why he didn’t eliminate Ribrianne right away. Just because she lasted that long in the tournament doesn’t mean she was so strong. Many other fighters from different universes lasted just as long, if not longer, and some were even weaker than her.

I'm not sure how you can claim #17 is nerfed but not think that Goku's base was buffed in this scene or that Vegeta was also nerfed. Even if Goku knew Hit's technique, the difference wouldn't be this dramatic if Vegeta was literally thousands of times faster than Goku's base. Even if you take manga logic and say that Vegeta was only at 10% SSB for that scene, it would still imply that he's several hundred times faster, stronger, and more durable than base Goku.

In the end, Goku literally overpowered Hit by being stronger and faster. His only advantage over Vegeta was he could predict where Hit was going to strike, but the thing is, Vegeta had reflexes thousands of times faster which would have made up the difference. That scene would make more sense if Goku used any other form but base.

I'm starting to get the feeling that you're not sure of the difference between a nerf, an inconsistency, characters holding back or the subtle power mechanics they were using in the ToP. I'm also not sure why you're choosing this particular hill to die on. As you seem to give them ample leeway with Goku, Vegeta, and Hit in the U6 Tournament.

I’m not disagreeing that Base Goku was buffed in the fight with Hit. But why do you assume that just because he was buffed in that scene means he was also buffed against the U2 members, despite the fact that there’s nothing to support him being buffed? At least in Hit’s case, they explained it with Goku figuring out Hit’s technique. Him being more durable than SSB Vegeta is also a case of bad writing, since it’s OBVIOUS that SSB is far far above anything a Base Saiyan can do.

However, we simply don’t have ANY proof that Base Goku was buffed against U2 at all. Why would they buff him there? We can’t assume he was buffed in the slightest. It’s just a case of the U2 members being fodder, and that’s it. Saying he was would just pure assumptions. There’s nothing more concrete than that. And I repeat, them lasting that long is just due to how the plot wanted them to be, and other far weaker members from other universes lasted just as long. Even Android 18 was able to beat Ribrianne in her giant form. That shows Universe 2 was simply nothing special, and it’s just as strong as other weak universes like Universe 4, 9 or 10.

[BWri]

I’d better use some comparisons so that you could understand better what I mean.

Kid Goku would be like ToP Base Goku (both being able to move with difficulty on the heavy gravity). Android Saga Gohan would be like 17 (both never experienced gravity before, and both are thousands of times stronger than the two mentioned before). Characters with a similar power gap in similar situations. Just because 17 had never experienced gravity before doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be able to move. I NEVER said he wouldn’t feel it heavy. Of course he would. But he should have been able to at least move, just like how Gohan did it back then in the RoSaT, DESPITE the fact that Gohan still felt it heavy.

You're not factoring in the degree of the gravity they were experiencing. Gohan was at a paltry 10G. 17 was literally experiencing the highest gravity ever felt in the series. We know it was compared to a real black hole, which dwarfs anything else we;ve seen in the series. To someone who's never in their life experienced higher gravity than earths, this is a shock to the system like no other. That's not even accounting for a Saiyan's natural physiology since they are born in 10x gravity. You can't even remotely compare stepping into 10x gravity for the first time to stepping into black hole level gravity for the first time. Power can't immediately account for this, we saw that with Kid Trunks. Experience with gravity training is another aspect you need to consider. I'll post the manga panels and leave it at that.

Kid Trunks - Buu Arc - 150G vs Goku - Namek Arc - 100G

Goku mastered 100G even doing 1 handed push-ups. Ginyu later read his max power at 90,000 before Kaioken


Trunks can hardly walk in 150G. His base is at least comparible to Goku's Base much later in the arc (3,000,000) but it's been debated that he was even stronger. Either way, bare minimum, Kid Trunks is stronger than Goku at the start of Namek by at least 33x.


Even Vegeta thought it was too much for Trunks


Trunks as a Super Saiyan runs in a circle in 150G


But Base Goku also shows that 100G is no big deal before arriving to Namek despite being at least 1000x weaker than SSJ Kid Trunks (likely close to 2000x)

We clearly see what’s happening here. Gohan felt the gravity, obviously, but was still able to move freely. 17, on the other hand, even with his infinite energy, couldn’t do it, despite the fact that a much weaker being like Base Goku could move with difficulty.

As the above examples show, Goku is more used to the gravity. Goku was moving in 100G much better than Kid Trunks was in 150G even though he was much much weaker at the start of the Namek Arc. His natural power topped off at 90K whereas Kid Trunks had to have a base that was the barest minimum 10x that. SSJ Kid Trunks performed only slightly better in 150G than base Goku did in 100G without SSJ at the start of Namek. That alone shows you that gravity does not work how you think it does.

Infinite energy doesn't indicate the strength of the energy and so it has nothing to do with anything either of us was discussing.

This is literally the last thing I will say on the subject of the gravity. We've beat the horse dead and I'm basically just repeating myself at this point. Those panels already prove everything I was saying.

I’m not disagreeing that Base Goku was buffed in the fight with Hit.

You said he wasn't in your last response. vvv

Him doing better than SSB Vegeta against Hit is just to show how Goku managed to figure out Hit’s gimmick. It doesn’t mean he was stronger at all.

But why do you assume that just because he was buffed in that scene means he was also buffed against the U2 members, despite the fact that there’s nothing to support him being buffed?

I was literally joking. I thought the lol emoji made that abundantly clear. vvv

Remember, he did better against Hit in base than Vegeta did as an SSB. If anything Goku's base gets buffed

But to clarify, the point I was making was that Goku is horribly inconsistent and that you shouldn't use Goku to power scale other characters if better options are available. I've said this multiple times already in our exchanges.

At least in Hit’s case, they explained it with Goku figuring out Hit’s technique. Him being more durable than SSB Vegeta is also a case of bad writing, since it’s OBVIOUS that SSB is far far above anything a Base Saiyan can do.

Exactly what I said. That's the point I've been making this entire time. Goku is an inconsistent measuring stick in this tournament. For some reason you still use Goku in every point you're making on this subject.

However, we simply don’t have ANY proof that Base Goku was buffed against U2 at all. Why would they buff him there? We can’t assume he was buffed in the slightest. It’s just a case of the U2 members being fodder, and that’s it. Saying he was would just pure assumptions.

Same as saying #17 is nerfed. I don't know how you can't see that.

[dragonball0900]

As the above examples show, Goku is more used to the gravity. Goku was moving in 100G much better than Kid Trunks was in 150G even though he was much much weaker at the start of the Namek Arc. His natural power topped off at 90K whereas Kid Trunks had to have a base that was the barest minimum 10x that. SSJ Kid Trunks performed only slightly better in 150G than base Goku did in 100G without SSJ at the start of Namek. That alone shows you that gravity does not work how you think it does.

Infinite energy doesn't indicate the strength of the energy and so it has nothing to do with anything either of us was discussing.

This is literally the last thing I will say on the subject of the gravity. We've beat the horse dead and I'm basically just repeating myself at this point. Those panels already prove everything I was saying.

I knew you would mention the fact that the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole was the heaviest of all. But the thing we see in the anime is that 17 and Goku are much much stronger than before (17 being the strongest by miles). Specially when we are talking about the anime. They were literally standing on a gravity that would be too heavy for DBS fighters.

Trunks’ comparison would make sense if we are talking about someone that is thousands or millions of times stronger than someone else. And Trunks was also at least still able to move, even in base. 17 has infinite energy, and is thousands to millions of times stronger. Infinite energy means he should struggle far less than usual in a much heavier gravity. If 17 wasn’t Blue tier and was only like SSJ tier maybe, then I would have agreed with you with no problem.

But I can see your point actually. I kind of makes sense your explanation regarding that, so I won’t disagree. But it still doesn’t refute my other points.

You said he wasn't in your last response. vvv

Yeah, but that’s to search for an explanation regarding his “buff”. It was more or less implied in the episode that was the reason why he managed to do better against Hit, despite the fact that it ruins the power scaling to considerable degrees. But it at least had an explanation. Unlike in the Tournament of Power with the U2 members…

But to clarify, the point I was making was that Goku is horribly inconsistent and that you shouldn't use Goku to power scale other characters if better options are available. I've said this multiple times already in our exchanges.

Goku is only inconsistent when he clearly is inconsistent, like in fights when he does better than SSGs/SSBs (Hit or Broly for example). Don’t’ get me wrong. I understand what you mean about Base Goku being inconsistent. But I don’t see why in this case against the U2 members Goku would have to be inconsistent, when it’s clearly shown to demonstrate that they were not that strong.

Exactly what I said. That's the point I've been making this entire time. Goku is an inconsistent measuring stick in this tournament. For some reason you still use Goku in every point you're making on this subject.

And I’m already explaining to you, the bad writing against Hit was clearly shown and demonstrated in the fight. There was no such thing against the U2 members. No such thing at all. He was clearly fighting equally and even dominating them in his fights. I don’t see anything wrong with that. Plus we EVEN see Base Vegeta dominating Rozie and Ribrianne later on, which again shows that not only Goku was the one that beat them in Base.

Same as saying #17 is nerfed. I don't know how you can't see that.

Except there ARE evidences in the tournament that show he was. Either nerfed, or simply holding back tremendously. It’s all the same in the end. The point is that he CLEARLY wasn’t using the strength he used later on against Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren, or the level he used when he fought Goku during the Recruitment Saga. He clearly fought alongside Android 18 as a team. Obviously Android 18 is far far far weaker than him. And then struggled against U2 members like Base Ribrianne and also a bit with Rozie later on, who are both around or weaker than Base Goku. It shows that the opponents 17 beat before the fight with Anilaza were ALL Base tier or below. None of them were SSJB tier, SSG tier, SSJ2 or even SSJ tier in the slightest. They were all fodder. And THAT includes the Universe 2 members. They were definitely nothing special at all. You can say he wasn’t nerfed, and that he was holding back. And I won’t disagree. But the fact is that all the opponents 17 beat in the tournament before the fight with Anilaza and U11 were not even a threat to Base Saiyans. None of them were. Katopesla was fodder until he used his final form against SSJ Vegeta. The U3 robot Biarra (I think that was his name?) was also not a threat since it was consistently shown that all robots were around Base Saiyan tier until they formed into Koichiarator. Kasheral and the other Pride Troopers were consistently shown to be below Base Saiyans in terms of raw strength in both anime and manga, and were only a threat when they worked as a team.

And the same happens with the U2 members, who are clearly consistently shown to be Base Goku level, and they still managed to give a fight to Android 17 and break his barrier, despite the fact that his barrier was barely even broken by top strong guys like Anilaza or Toppo.

[BWri]

Except there ARE evidences in the tournament that show he was. Either nerfed, or simply holding back tremendously. It’s all the same in the end. The point is that he CLEARLY wasn’t using the strength he used later on against Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren, or the level he used when he fought Goku during the Recruitment Saga.

Yeah and neither was Jiren. Jiren alone could have easily cleared the entire stage and yet he didn't. It's just a writing convention to make things more dramatic and stretches out the episodes. The anime did this much more than the manga. So much so that a lot of it doesn't make much sense. But there's enough subtle tactics and regulations in the tournament that much of the wonky power scaling can be forgiven or ignored. I'm fine with that. Taking a microscope to DBS is honestly an exercise of futility and I prefer not to do so to save my sanity. I can however appreciate some of the subtle mechanics involved in many of these fights, despite some inconsistencies, vagueness and retconning.

For your own sanity, don't think too hard about this stuff.

[dragonball0900]

Except there ARE evidences in the tournament that show he was. Either nerfed, or simply holding back tremendously. It’s all the same in the end. The point is that he CLEARLY wasn’t using the strength he used later on against Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren, or the level he used when he fought Goku during the Recruitment Saga.

Yeah and neither was Jiren. Jiren alone could have easily cleared the entire stage and yet he didn't. It's just a writing convention to make things more dramatic and stretches out the episodes. The anime did this much more than the manga. So much so that a lot of it doesn't make much sense. But there's enough subtle tactics and regulations in the tournament that much of the wonky power scaling can be forgiven or ignored. I'm fine with that. Taking a microscope to DBS is honestly an exercise of futility and I prefer not to do so to save my sanity. I can however appreciate some of the subtle mechanics involved in many of these fights, despite some inconsistencies, vagueness and retconning.

For your own sanity, don't think too hard about this stuff.

The difference is that Jiren was directly stated many times to hold back and not being serious. 17 did not received such statements. I say this because I had encounters with people in the past saying that 17 was always serious in the tournament, and that opponents like Ribrianne or Kakunsa were SSG tier or something (which is totally insane and laughable).

And there's also a difference between not fighting seriously and literally fighting at a level of a Base Saiyan throughout the tournament, like literally being able to suppress your power to 0.01%. I would understand if it was someone with a transformation, like Frieza for example. But 17 has no such things. All we could use to explain 17's decrease in power is that he was simply holding back to big degrees. With that I would say Android 18 and Piccolo were also holding back in the tournament just like 17 to fight on par with Base Saiyans (the former fighting on par with Base Goku, and the latter on par with Base Gohan), despite the fact that their actual levels are far stronger than that when it comes to a dangerous situation. The problem is that there are other people here and in other places that believe those two are actually weaker than Base Saiyans, when in fact they are not, and they also suffer the same case as Android 17 in the tournament.

It's all due to plot in the end. The androids and Piccolo being way weaker than they should be is just a case of plot convenience so that they could fight alongside the untransformed saiyans. And like you said, it's best not to think that much about that stuff. And we could see that due to the terrible power scaling in the anime, opinions regarding this stuff are very different, since we would never be able to find the concrete answer due to how the anime is developed in the way it is. All we can go through is with our own headcanons and assumptions, depending on what we see from the anime story.