Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

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Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Aim » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 am

This has been on my mind for a while now, how come we haven't got any new guide books that give us a little more info on the multipliers on things such as Super Saiyan God & SSGSS? Heck, even Ultra Instinct.

I can't remember whether a multiplier of SS4 was released, but it would be good to have that in there too.

It would also be great to have the "Completed SSGSS" multiplier there as well.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by theherodjl » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:12 am

I would really rather that there would not be anymore "official" multipliers & PLs, etc. The Super Exciting Guide really opened up a can of worms by jotting down unimaginative, concrete numbers for the SSJ forms that has caused more debate towards their in-story authenticity & logic than clarification for the fans that are interested. It didn't present a scale that could give the SSJ forms varying degrees of power between individual Saiyans, how well the forms could be accessed & upgraded, or emotional factors such as anger & desperation. Nope, just boring, inflexible, and poorly explained numbers that killed the mystery of Saiyan power as well as prior fandom estimates. :?
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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Lionel » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:59 am

I think the original manga already sort of dug its own grave when it comes to multipliers as it gave a concrete number for both the Oozaru form and Kaioken multipliers. Super Saiyan would need to exceed both for its use to be rationalised. Anything that follows Super Saiyan will doubtlessly be greatly superior to remain in keeping with its ambience of superiority and awe.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:41 pm

It's something many of us have been wondering. It's long overdue, not just about pawareverusu but about this brand new lore, including new universes, gods, hierarchies, planets, differences between manga and anime(although they probably would just cover the anime). There is a lot to include in a Super guide.
We still don't how much stronger Goku became as SSGod, we can only say it should be stronger than pre-ritual Super Vegito, and Blue in the manga was implied to be 10x God.

To be fair, the manga did get a V-Jump article discriminating every Super form with their correspondent aura, based on the manga and not some arbitrary analysis. Although, no multiplier or comparison between the forms were made.

SS4 multiplier was never disclosed, perhaps on purpose. The only comparison was with Super Vegito, implying they provide the same kind of boost.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:52 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:12 am
The Super Exciting Guide really opened up a can of worms by jotting down unimaginative, concrete numbers for the SSJ forms that has caused more debate towards their in-story authenticity & logic than clarification for the fans that are interested. It didn't present a scale that could give the SSJ forms varying degrees of power between individual Saiyans, how well the forms could be accessed & upgraded, or emotional factors such as anger & desperation.
One thing that this hypothetical Super Daizenshuu would be likely to do, though, is to amend some of the multipliers we already have at least a little more in the direction that you describe here.

If nothing else, Vegeta's performance against Beerus and Trunks's demonstration against Goku would likely amend the SSj2 multiplier to something more like 100-400x Base (or, as phrased in Super Exciting Guide terms, 2-8x SSj). Might even allow a little more interpretive leeway in doing Buu arc power levels (I say "allow" - we can do it already, of course; but it would be concretely official).

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by theherodjl » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:42 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:52 pm
If nothing else, Vegeta's performance against Beerus and Trunks's demonstration against Goku would likely amend the SSj2 multiplier to something more like 100-400x Base (or, as phrased in Super Exciting Guide terms, 2-8x SSj). Might even allow a little more interpretive leeway in doing Buu arc power levels (I say "allow" - we can do it already, of course; but it would be concretely official).
I would say that Vegeta's case needs to be risen a lot more than that. The manga had SSJ3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan get humilated by Beerus within a few pages but then Vegeta pulled out an enraged SSJ2 which allowed him to kick around this same level of Beerus, a clear indication that Vegeta can push SSJ2 to surpass even a SSJ3 fusion as well as the Ultimate power-up.
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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by pepd » Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:32 pm

It would be really hard and probably a mess, specially for the anime. Now I kinda want it, even if just to make more evident the value of Power Levels

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:39 pm

theherodjl wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:42 am
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:52 pm
If nothing else, Vegeta's performance against Beerus and Trunks's demonstration against Goku would likely amend the SSj2 multiplier to something more like 100-400x Base (or, as phrased in Super Exciting Guide terms, 2-8x SSj). Might even allow a little more interpretive leeway in doing Buu arc power levels (I say "allow" - we can do it already, of course; but it would be concretely official).
I would say that Vegeta's case needs to be risen a lot more than that. The manga had SSJ3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan get humilated by Beerus within a few pages but then Vegeta pulled out an enraged SSJ2 which allowed him to kick around this same level of Beerus, a clear indication that Vegeta can push SSJ2 to surpass even a SSJ3 fusion as well as the Ultimate power-up.
Possibly, but I've always found the evidence to be a little more ambiguous than that - sure, Beerus smacks back Gohan (and we have no other fighting context for that in the manga), but Gohan is still very much 'up'; Gotenks gets countered by an alert Beerus, spanked and tossed into the ocean; again, he doesn't seem hugely damaged, but he de-fuses there, so we'll never really know from that showing.

I've always regarded Vegeta's 'good' performance as simply being able to recover from Beerus's punch more quickly than expected, allowing him to take Beerus off-guard and counter, and then exploit that opening with a rapid flurry. Tanking the hit is impressive enough in its way, as SSj3 Goku seems to manage less than that, but the flurry ultimately just has the effect of making Beerus roll his eyes and sigh, so I'd be wary of using it as certain proof of Vegeta being better than people who are stronger than Goku, myself.

Still, I won't argue against your conclusion, necessarily, as I think the evidence doesn't really allow us to be dogmatic either way.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:16 pm

I think the biggest hurdles will be whether or not the jumps in power for Goku and Vegeta after training under Whis will be accounted for when trying to come up with any multipliers for the DBS forms.

For example, the jump from base and Super Saiyan forms to Super Saiyan God is definitely not as massive as it once was when the ritual was first performed against Beerus, or at least it doesn't seem that way anymore.

The Broly movie is the best example, as it portrays the differences between all 4 main forms as being close enough overall that, while significant, isn't leaps and bounds.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm

Aim wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 am
This has been on my mind for a while now, how come we haven't got any new guide books that give us a little more info on the multipliers on things such as Super Saiyan God & SSGSS? Heck, even Ultra Instinct.

I can't remember whether a multiplier of SS4 was released, but it would be good to have that in there too.

It would also be great to have the "Completed SSGSS" multiplier there as well.
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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:31 pm

Pivoting from multipliers to 'why we don't have a guidebook', I'd say the fact that Dragon Ball Super isn't finished (or obviously finishing) that has most to do with that, rather than any other explanation - the Daizenshuu, after all, were published just after Dragon Ball finished, and presumably even in the compilation work they did before the series ended, they'd've had a certain amount of advance knowledge so as to be assured that the publication wouldn't be made immediately obsolete by new content.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:27 am

pepd wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:32 pm
It would be really hard and probably a mess, specially for the anime. Now I kinda want it, even if just to make more evident the value of Power Levels
The manga really doesn't get enough love, so they could always focus more on that.

I mean, Son as SSGSS in the anime was not on par with Kurilin like people whine about, SSGSS was much more stable in the anime and these individuals could easily suppress themselves.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Aim wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 am
This has been on my mind for a while now, how come we haven't got any new guide books that give us a little more info on the multipliers on things such as Super Saiyan God & SSGSS? Heck, even Ultra Instinct.

I can't remember whether a multiplier of SS4 was released, but it would be good to have that in there too.

It would also be great to have the "Completed SSGSS" multiplier there as well.
Toriyama doesn't care and nobody wants to decide anything without him.
I don't think we give him enough credit. Of course he cares, if he didn't we wouldn't have more DB material.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:00 am

Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Aim wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 am
This has been on my mind for a while now, how come we haven't got any new guide books that give us a little more info on the multipliers on things such as Super Saiyan God & SSGSS? Heck, even Ultra Instinct.

I can't remember whether a multiplier of SS4 was released, but it would be good to have that in there too.

It would also be great to have the "Completed SSGSS" multiplier there as well.
Toriyama doesn't care and nobody wants to decide anything without him.
I don't think we give him enough credit. Of course he cares, if he didn't we wouldn't have more DB material.
He doesn't care about multipliers. Hell, when the multipliers for SS2 and SS3 came out he outright said he didn't view Super Saiyan as being a fifty-times multiplier but more like a ten-times multiplier, which contradicts the fact that the ten-times Kaiou-ken was useless against Freeza. He just...doesn't care. Hard numbers get in his way of writing a story.
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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by pepd » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:30 pm

Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:27 am
pepd wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:32 pm
It would be really hard and probably a mess, specially for the anime. Now I kinda want it, even if just to make more evident the value of Power Levels
The manga really doesn't get enough love, so they could always focus more on that.
I mean, Son as SSGSS in the anime was not on par with Kurilin like people whine about, SSGSS was much more stable in the anime and these individuals could easily suppress themselves.
On manga guides I'm more interested in production, lore, clarifications and that stuff
I guess it would be a nice opportunity to try to give explanations with anime guides.
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Aim wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:15 am
[...]
Toriyama doesn't care and nobody wants to decide anything without him.
I don't think we give him enough credit. Of course he cares, if he didn't we wouldn't have more DB material.
Is not that he doesn't care about DB, but in his Dragon Ball, PL and multiplier simply are not a thing (aside maybe from scouter PL and kaiōken), and he doesn't care for external, DB franchise multipliers.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:00 am
Aim wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:28 am
JulieYBM wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:22 pm
Toriyama doesn't care and nobody wants to decide anything without him.
I don't think we give him enough credit. Of course he cares, if he didn't we wouldn't have more DB material.
He doesn't care about multipliers. Hell, when the multipliers for SS2 and SS3 came out he outright said he didn't view Super Saiyan as being a fifty-times multiplier but more like a ten-times multiplier, which contradicts the fact that the ten-times Kaiou-ken was useless against Freeza. He just...doesn't care. Hard numbers get in his way of writing a story.
Sure, maybe Toriyama doesn't, but doesn't the fact that we have multipliers for the standard SSj forms speak against the idea that "nobody wants to decide anything without him"?

Sure, it took a while for SSj2 and SSj3 to be decided, but clearly somebody did; there's no reason they couldn't or wouldn't again for Super.

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Re: Potential Multipliers - "Super" Daizenshuu?

Post by Aim » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:01 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:00 am
He doesn't care about multipliers. Hell, when the multipliers for SS2 and SS3 came out he outright said he didn't view Super Saiyan as being a fifty-times multiplier but more like a ten-times multiplier, which contradicts the fact that the ten-times Kaiou-ken was useless against Freeza. He just...doesn't care. Hard numbers get in his way of writing a story.
Yep. "Up to that point." It sounds like to me he's saying that at that point of time, the multiplier was around x10, which then one could theorise that he means that it really depends on the user's physical state as well as other factors. Perhaps when Son uses the Kaiou-ken x10 or x20 or whatever, if he's really beaten up like in the battle with Freeza, the multiplier is somewhat less, or different? Just a theory.

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