Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

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LoganForkHands73
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Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:48 pm

Taking into consideration the "Stupid Super Goku" reputation, looking at all Dragon Ball media panoramically, which arc or storyline shows Goku at his dumbest, minus IQ, least competent, etc?

My vote is the Zamasu/Black/Trunks/whateverthefuckitscalled arc. I'll explain later in a comment because I don't want to dilute the discussion immediately, I wanna hear your thoughts.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:31 pm

I agree the Zamasu arc has Goku fucking everything up. In the anime he forgets the senzu beans and in the manga he forgets the Mafuba seal, you had one job, Goku.

-In the Buu arc, Goku wastes his time on Earth in a pretty stupid way. Instead of teleporting to Capsule Corp with Bulma and retrieving the radar in a heartbeat himself, he interrumpts the fusion bootcamp and sends Trunks there flying, and blows 20hs of time in 3 minutes. And while having the power to end everything, he chooses not to because he believes the children (that will not be considered AT ALL in the future as they grow up) have to deal with it.
I guess you could say he did all that to get a piece of the action but that doesn't make it less stupid.

-Giving Cell a senzu seemed pretty dumb too. I think he somehow acknowledges it after Piccolo makes a fair point.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Lionel » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:05 pm

I have to agree with the Future Trunks arc showcasing Goku at his most witless and ill-thought-out. In previous instances like offering Cell a sensu bean or neglecting to take care of Buu himself, you could at least look back with the foresight of knowing that some genuine merit was there. Goku was firmly of the belief that Gohan alone wielded the necessary power to take down Cell -- an attritional battle was likely already deduced as ill advised as Cell himself was encouraging that very idea when he proposed that Goku take a sense before resuming their fight; as if he knew that such an approach would only serve to gratify him more while still directing the course of the fight. Concerning Buu -- the belief of Earth needing to fend for itself without Goku present is a much needed principle that sadly was thrown aside due to Toriyama's own notions. Goku may have been foisting a lot onto the children's shoulders but what he was encouraging was sensible in the context of long-term survivability.

Goku forgetting the talisman necessary for the Mafuba sealing device was simply ignorant on his part. Has Goku ever been that neglectful as an adult before? The closest equivalent I can think of is him not taking the medicine Trunks provided before heading out to confront the cyborgs/androids (technically both were present in the manga).

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by TheGodfather93 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:55 am

I've made no secret of my hatred of this moment. It was the first of many scenes that soured my opinion of Goku.
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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Lionel » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:50 am

TheGodfather93 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:55 am
I've made no secret of my hatred of this moment. It was the first of many scenes that soured my opinion of Goku.
Goku's argument in that scene doesn't make sense. Gero had already proven himself to be an amoral dangerous man in the past by collaborating with the Red Ribbon Army -- a paramilitary terrorist group -- and constructing munitions and mechanical fighting beings to facilitate the RRA's prospects of world domination. If that wasn't scathing enough, Gero experimented with the dead via #8's original organic body as well as living humans.

How none of that qualifies as criminal and worthy of punishment in Goku's mind is beyond me.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am

Goku is the reason why Zamasu went evil, so you could say he was responsible for the Future Trunks arc. Zamasu would've never gone down the genocide route if he never witnessed first-hand the overwhelming strength of mortals by fighting Goku (this is factually proven with Future Zamasu). Goku's incompetence, lust for baddle, and all around stupidity and arrogance pretty much doomed the multiverse.

There is a scene where Bulma even scolds Goku for wanting to fight Zamasu so bad, because she realized that he pretty much caused Goku Black to exist and the future timeline to be ruined:

Image
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:57 am

When everyone was getting beat up left and right by Super 17, he was enjoying himself in hell by toying with Freeza and Cell. He could've easily ended things as a simple Ssj, but instead he dragged the fight on for no good reason.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:57 am

TheGodfather93 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:55 am
I've made no secret of my hatred of this moment. It was the first of many scenes that soured my opinion of Goku.
To play Devil's advocate somewhat, I don't really consider that to be an incompetent moment and in fact I quite like this scene because it puts Goku and the gang in a fairly typical sci-fi dilemma -- ominous message from the future telling them that some killer robots are coming to kill them -- and flips it on its head by showing how these protagonists uniquely react in this situation. Even though that would be the more pragmatic option, they don't want to use the Dragon Balls to find Gero or anything like that. Instead of preventing the threat from rising, they'd rather train and grow strong enough to defeat it themselves. The way Dragon Ball characters make these bizarre decisions is part of what keeps the series so interesting and entertaining.

It's already been established that the Dragon Team are not conventional heroes and they often have very strange, honour-bound priorities that seem alien to normal people. Even though Piccolo was a global threat who had just vitrified a whole island, Goku still insisted on defeating him with Budokai rules in place. He always wants to defeat enemies on his own terms. Getting into the wishywashy martial arts philosophy of it, they don't just want to defeat their enemies, they want to defeat themselves... and all that.

In a sense, it's Goku being genre-savvy about how the Dragon Ball universe works. Fighting has always been the solution to every problem in one way or another. If they took Bulma's quick-and-easy advice, chances are something would go wrong, and in hindsight, no one would have been anywhere near strong enough to fight Cell or Majin Buu down the line. That's why the Z-Fighters need the challenge. Krillin's reasoning has a lot of precedent to it and he eventually gets proven right in a roundabout way when Androids 16, 17 and 18 all convert to good. Giving Vegeta and Piccolo common enemies to train towards also lessens the chances of them going AWOL again. If you take Super into account, them allowing #17 to be awakened might be the best, most pivotal decision they ever made in the long run.

As for the medicine thing brought up by Lionel, I can't blame Goku for neglecting meds when he wasn't showing symptoms for 3 years.
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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am
Goku is the reason why Zamasu went evil, so you could say he was responsible for the Future Trunks arc. Zamasu would've never gone down the genocide route if he never witnessed first-hand the overwhelming strength of mortals by fighting Goku (this is factually proven with Future Zamasu). Goku's incompetence, lust for baddle, and all around stupidity and arrogance pretty much doomed the multiverse.

There is a scene where Bulma even scolds Goku for wanting to fight Zamasu so bad, because she realized that he pretty much caused Goku Black to exist and the future timeline to be ruined:

Image

He also saw the Goku vs. Hit fight...
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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:00 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am
Goku is the reason why Zamasu went evil, so you could say he was responsible for the Future Trunks arc. Zamasu would've never gone down the genocide route if he never witnessed first-hand the overwhelming strength of mortals by fighting Goku (this is factually proven with Future Zamasu). Goku's incompetence, lust for baddle, and all around stupidity and arrogance pretty much doomed the multiverse.

There is a scene where Bulma even scolds Goku for wanting to fight Zamasu so bad, because she realized that he pretty much caused Goku Black to exist and the future timeline to be ruined:

Image

He also saw the Goku vs. Hit fight...
And? It is the fight with Goku that made him realize how dangerous mortals are, Black even cited that fight as the catalyst for his change of heart.

I'm talking about the anime version here, not the shallow, 100% less cooler manga version.
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:16 am

I think Koitsukai and Lionel summed up my feelings about Goku constantly fucking things up in the Zamasu arc. While his role in Zamasu's downfall was avoidable, I'd hesitate to blame Goku completely for it. Goku is used to people making friends with him after he fights them so naturally he thought that Zamasu would react in the same way -- unfortunately, he didn't. Though Goku probably should have sensibly backed off when he felt how dark Zamasu's ki was and left it at that, the man can't resist a good fight.

And really, Goku isn't Zamasu's mother, he's not responsible for Zamasu's horrible genocidal mentality. If all it took for Zamasu to go full Project Zero Mortals was getting his ass kicked by a Saiyan, Goku probably did everyone a favour by simply accelerating Zamasu's pre-existing decline and exposing him for the kind of person he was.
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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:41 am

Or maybe Goku should have just backed off when Zamasu told him for the 30th time he didn't want to fight, instead of literally stalking him. Not only that, he just had to trash talk him after the fight, by basically saying "I'm surprised you're so strong when your species is so pathetically weak."
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:13 pm

I'd argue that Goku insisting on fighting Zamasu is more on the asshole side of life than the stupid side. He was being selfish, not dumb.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:46 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am
Goku is the reason why Zamasu went evil, so you could say he was responsible for the Future Trunks arc. Zamasu would've never gone down the genocide route if he never witnessed first-hand the overwhelming strength of mortals by fighting Goku (this is factually proven with Future Zamasu). Goku's incompetence, lust for baddle, and all around stupidity and arrogance pretty much doomed the multiverse.

There is a scene where Bulma even scolds Goku for wanting to fight Zamasu so bad, because she realized that he pretty much caused Goku Black to exist and the future timeline to be ruined:

Image

He also saw the Goku vs. Hit fight...
Because Goku fought him.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:24 am

Gowasu was watching it, he would have eventually seen it anyway. That or the Tournament of Power.
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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by EGonzo » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:37 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:00 am
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:18 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:35 am
Goku is the reason why Zamasu went evil, so you could say he was responsible for the Future Trunks arc. Zamasu would've never gone down the genocide route if he never witnessed first-hand the overwhelming strength of mortals by fighting Goku (this is factually proven with Future Zamasu). Goku's incompetence, lust for baddle, and all around stupidity and arrogance pretty much doomed the multiverse.

There is a scene where Bulma even scolds Goku for wanting to fight Zamasu so bad, because she realized that he pretty much caused Goku Black to exist and the future timeline to be ruined:

Image

He also saw the Goku vs. Hit fight...
And? It is the fight with Goku that made him realize how dangerous mortals are, Black even cited that fight as the catalyst for his change of heart.

I'm talking about the anime version here, not the shallow, 100% less cooler manga version.
Zamasu already had that mentality, Future Zamasu never even met Goku and still went evil. Black barely had to try to convince him. Meeting Goku just made him snap faster.
I agree with you on the manga, there he was just evil from the start and the whole thing sucked

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:06 am

EGonzo wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:37 am
Zamasu already had that mentality, Future Zamasu never even met Goku and still went evil. Black barely had to try to convince him. Meeting Goku just made him snap faster.
I agree with you on the manga, there he was just evil from the start and the whole thing sucked
I would say that even if Zamasu already had doubts about mortals, meeting Goku is really what proved that mortals are dangerous and can't be controlled anymore. Fighting the saiyan showed him that the Gods failed in creating mortals. If he met someone like Gohan or Piccolo, someone who is polite, intelligent, and doesn't want to fight for fun, I'm sure his opinion of mortals would've improved.

Goku was obnoxious during that entire episode, he acted like a complete child (because I don't want to use the r word). Even Beerus and Whis called him an idiot lol.
And so by incorporating Goku's flesh into my being, I have assumed both the sins of mortal kind and the failure of divinity so they may never be repeated! That is the duty of a true God. That is why I do this. For the good of the cosmos. For a creation!

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Steven Bloodriver » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:13 am

The entirety of Dragon Ball Super.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:57 am

Steven Bloodriver wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:13 am
The entirety of Dragon Ball Super.
I really have to question whether this judgement is being expressed in good faith.

Goku's fight with Hit in the manga version of Dragon Ball Super arguably shows Goku at his most competent and perceptive since the 23rd Budokai. He does his research, figures out a strategy, and almost completely controls that fight.

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Re: Which storyline shows Goku at his least competent?

Post by kemuri07 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:00 am

I imagine they mean the anime adaptation.

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